Shouting and Falling Out: a religion topic

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  • The New BlackThe New Black Posts: 16,754Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Phoenix wrote: »
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Nobody "speaks in tongues" with sounds that aren't part of their own dialect--other than the "kh" sound in "loch."

    What do you mean? I don't agree with that at all.

    EDIT: I originally typed out a different response. However, I just looked it up, and at least two famous studies agree with my own observations:

    ("Glossolalia" is the scholarly term for speaking in tongues.)

    [Glossolalia consists of] consonants and vowels taken from a language known to the speaker...That the sounds are taken from the set of sounds already known to the speaker is confirmed by others: Felicitas Goodman found that the speech of glossolalists reflected the patterns of speech of the speaker's native language

    I don't think this is the kind of thing you can prove by studies. You either have to have faith in it or you don't. Obviously, you don't.
    montage-3.gif No MAS.

    I am the new Black.

    "Hope the Mail are saving space tomorrow for Samantha Brick's reaction piece on the reactions to her piece about the reactions to her piece." ~ Tweet reposted by Rou.
  • RichardHeadRichardHead Banned Posts: 629Banned Users
    It's all an act. Some people will do anything to be the center of attention.
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,391Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Phoenix wrote: »
    I don't think this is the kind of thing you can prove by studies. You either have to have faith in it or you don't. Obviously, you don't.

    Sorry, but studies can absolutely prove that people experiencing glossolalia don't produce sounds that they're unfamiliar with. It's extremely easy to gather and analyze the relevant data--there wouldn't be any ambiguity or significant uncertainty in a study like this. So, it's not something that's really up for debate.

    That said, a person can't prove whether or not speaking in tongues is divinely inspired :)

    (Edited multiple times for multiple typos...yikes!)
  • Gemini13Gemini13 Posts: 5,000Registered Users
    IMO, for those who aren't faking, this falls somewhere in the mass hysteria/ecstatic trance category. If you're really interested, there have been quite a few studies done on this and a number of documentaries as well (if I wasn't feeling like crap today I'd try to find a few for you).

    While the studies might not prove or disprove anything, they offer possible explanations of this behavior.

    I witnessed falling out once... I was about 5. My Grandma (who's Baptist) was watching me and took me along to a prayer meeting. To this day I still remember quite a few details of that afternoon. I was the only child there and, as you can imagine, after a while I was bored out of my skull and dying to go home. We were finally getting ready to leave, when one of the women started hollering and swaying, going on about how Jesus was talking to her.

    She was gone and I was terrified. It seemed clear to me that there was something wrong with her and I wondered why none of the adults seemed concerned. Why they were, instead, encouraging her with "yes, Lord Jesus"es. It was a seriously scarring experience for me...
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  • vacurlzvacurlz Posts: 24Registered Users
    Phoenix wrote: »
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Phoenix wrote: »

    What do you mean? I don't agree with that at all.

    EDIT: I originally typed out a different response. However, I just looked it up, and at least two famous studies agree with my own observations:

    ("Glossolalia" is the scholarly term for speaking in tongues.)

    [Glossolalia consists of] consonants and vowels taken from a language known to the speaker...That the sounds are taken from the set of sounds already known to the speaker is confirmed by others: Felicitas Goodman found that the speech of glossolalists reflected the patterns of speech of the speaker's native language

    I don't think this is the kind of thing you can prove by studies. You either have to have faith in it or you don't. Obviously, you don't.


    I am ITA!! I am a very scientific/research oriented person (I work in health evaluation) however scientific inquiry cannot explain all phenomena - it just can't.
  • DeljahDeljah Posts: 47Registered Users
    Interesting topic...

    IMO, the distinction is authentic and / or spontaneous vs learned behavior. Most of what I've seen of shouting and falling out is learned behavior. I wouldn't necessarily called learned behavior or learned patterns of worship, "fake" or attention grabbing in every case, just not irrestibly induced by the Spirit.

    I do agree that much of this behavior is not scripturally based or congruent. I have "been slain" a couple of times years ago. It was learned behavior. I was doing what I thought I was supposed to do or what was encouraged or aspired to. I only did it when someone was there to catch me, and thank God, or else I'd have needed a miraculous healing! lol

    I know the debates about tongues. I no longer think it signifies baptism in the Holy Spirit, even though I was taught so and sought it as a pre-teen. I have prayed in tongues before. It was not an ecstatic experience and was always quiet and under my control. I'm pretty ambivalent about it now.

    If Redcatwaves ever lived in NC, I'd think we went to the same church back in the day.:smile:
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Phoenix wrote: »
    Eilonwy wrote: »

    I don't think this is the kind of thing you can prove by studies. You either have to have faith in it or you don't. Obviously, you don't.


    I am ITA!! I am a very scientific/research oriented person (I work in health evaluation) however scientific inquiry cannot explain all phenomena - it just can't.



    What branch of medicine is "health evaluation"?

    No, science can't explain everything, but it can explain language pretty well. People can't make sounds they don't know, and when religious people speak in "tongues", it's usually just gibberish sounds of their own language. That's pretty easy to study and explain.
  • The New BlackThe New Black Posts: 16,754Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Phoenix wrote: »
    I don't think this is the kind of thing you can prove by studies. You either have to have faith in it or you don't. Obviously, you don't.

    Sorry, but studies can absolutely prove that people experiencing glossolalia don't produce sounds that they're unfamiliar with. It's extremely easy to gather and analyze the relevant data--there wouldn't be any ambiguity or significant uncertainty in a study like this. So, it's not something that's really up for debate.

    That said, a person can't prove whether or not speaking in tongues is divinely inspired :)

    (Edited multiple times for multiple typos...yikes!)

    That's the part I was getting at. A study can't prove that.
    montage-3.gif No MAS.

    I am the new Black.

    "Hope the Mail are saving space tomorrow for Samantha Brick's reaction piece on the reactions to her piece about the reactions to her piece." ~ Tweet reposted by Rou.
  • vacurlzvacurlz Posts: 24Registered Users
    Phoenix wrote: »

    I don't think this is the kind of thing you can prove by studies. You either have to have faith in it or you don't. Obviously, you don't.


    I am ITA!! I am a very scientific/research oriented person (I work in health evaluation) however scientific inquiry cannot explain all phenomena - it just can't.



    What branch of medicine is "health evaluation"?

    No, science can't explain everything, but it can explain language pretty well. People can't make sounds they don't know, and when religious people speak in "tongues", it's usually just gibberish sounds of their own language. That's pretty easy to study and explain.

    It isn't a branch of medicine, it a branch of public health. I don't see anywhere where I said it was a branch of medicine. Are you saying that someone who scientific/research oriented would only work in medicine????:confused3:
  • NarniaNarnia Posts: 1,770Registered Users
    When I was a kid (10, 11ish) I went with some neighbours to their Vineyard church. It was very expressive (dancing, singing, waving flags, etc) and there was a LOT of speaking in tongues, fainting, shaking, etc. They called it "being touched by God."
    They work very closely with inner city organizations and would often do "Celebration Nights" in inner city parks.
    I vividly remember multiple people foaming at the mouth and/or vomiting WHILE being on the floor shaking. This was explained as "evil leaving the body."

    My parents banned me from going to those events after they found out about that stuff. At the time I was all upset and couldn't understand it, but looking back, I can totally understand why they wouldn't want me around that. I wouldn't want MY kid around that stuff, either. Not until they were old enough to understand, or not be scared by it.
    "Life is full of beauty. Notice it. Notice the bumble bee, the small child, and the smiling faces. Smell the rain, and feel the wind. Live your life to the fullest potential, and fight for your dreams.”
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur


    I am ITA!! I am a very scientific/research oriented person (I work in health evaluation) however scientific inquiry cannot explain all phenomena - it just can't.



    What branch of medicine is "health evaluation"?

    No, science can't explain everything, but it can explain language pretty well. People can't make sounds they don't know, and when religious people speak in "tongues", it's usually just gibberish sounds of their own language. That's pretty easy to study and explain.

    It isn't a branch of medicine, it a branch of public health. I don't see anywhere where I said it was a branch of medicine. Are you saying that someone who scientific/research oriented would only work in medicine????:confused3:


    I was just asking a question. I thought I had read in other posts that you work in the healthcare industry and I was curious what "health evaluation" is. I still don't know.
  • vacurlzvacurlz Posts: 24Registered Users



    What branch of medicine is "health evaluation"?

    No, science can't explain everything, but it can explain language pretty well. People can't make sounds they don't know, and when religious people speak in "tongues", it's usually just gibberish sounds of their own language. That's pretty easy to study and explain.

    It isn't a branch of medicine, it a branch of public health. I don't see anywhere where I said it was a branch of medicine. Are you saying that someone who scientific/research oriented would only work in medicine????:confused3:


    I was just asking a question. I thought I had read in other posts that you work in the healthcare industry and I was curious what "health evaluation" is. I still don't know.

    Health evaluation is really a catch-all term and alot of things fall under it.

    I personally work for a company that evaluates all the major health insurance companies against rigourous standards to make sure that they are providing a high level of service to thier member/practictioners. We also evaluate physicians, wellness programs, and other health related programs.
  • wild~hairwild~hair Posts: 9,890Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    All my spiritual experiences have been very quiet — and non-church related. So I cannot really identify with this phenomenon.

    But given the experiences I have had, I can see how, for someone who is more outgoing than I, it might manifest in this way.

    IME, these things are very spontaneous and tend to happen when you least expect them. So on the surface, there's just something a little contrived about this phenomenon.

    But then, I've never understood a lot of crowd behavior, and some people do get swept up in that kind of thing. I just really can't relate.

    So I guess I'm skeptical, but since I cannot get inside people's heads, I'll withhold passing an opinion on it all. I know my own spiritual experiences, when I've told people about them, have made me sound like a crazy person. :lol: So far be it for me to judge.
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,391Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    No, science can't explain everything, but it can explain language pretty well.

    It would be pretty cool if this thread got sidetracked into a debate about whether linguistics and other social sciences are "real" sciences.

    Just throwing that out there.
  • subbrocksubbrock Posts: 8,212Registered Users
    Narnia wrote: »

    My parents banned me from going to those events after they found out about that stuff. At the time I was all upset and couldn't understand it, but looking back, I can totally understand why they wouldn't want me around that. I wouldn't want MY kid around that stuff, either. Not until they were old enough to understand, or not be scared by it.

    i guess its all about what your comfortable with. if you grow around it, it really isnt scary. and i mean the tame stuff--speaking in tongues and an occasional falling out. maybe a shout dance here and there.
    i have a few friends who are catholic, who dont realize that im not catholic and confide in me about how they think churches where they actually use instruments other than an organ are going to hell and are crazy folk. to them something as simple as a guitar accompanying the music is scary and devilish.
  • Aphro-DeeziacAphro-Deeziac Posts: 983Registered Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    No, science can't explain everything, but it can explain language pretty well.

    It would be pretty cool if this thread got sidetracked into a debate about whether linguistics and other social sciences are "real" sciences.

    Just throwing that out there.


    no it wouldnt:-o. Its going fine just the way it is. Better than I had hoped in fact. Respectful and open. Must be because we have a new president :)

    Ive learned a lot and am grateful for the thoughful sharing and responses.

    But thats a good topic to start a new thread on.
    26560_1412644406072_1531382664_31035658_3971206_n.jpg
  • NarniaNarnia Posts: 1,770Registered Users
    subbrock wrote: »

    i guess its all about what your comfortable with. if you grow around it, it really isnt scary. and i mean the tame stuff--speaking in tongues and an occasional falling out. maybe a shout dance here and there.

    I wasn't scared by it. I meant I was all upset that they banned me. The tame stuff is fine, but on the floor shaking and vomiting could be scary to anyone, especially a kid who has no idea why that is happening.
    "Life is full of beauty. Notice it. Notice the bumble bee, the small child, and the smiling faces. Smell the rain, and feel the wind. Live your life to the fullest potential, and fight for your dreams.”
  • nynaeve77nynaeve77 Posts: 7,135Registered Users Curl Novice
    I grew up in a Pentecostal church, and the church I go to now is Assemblies of God, so I've seen my fair share of wacky stuff, to say the least. I've seen people foaming at the mouth, vomiting, and seizing (gross). I honestly think some of those people had either physical or mental illnesses. I think some people get loud or "fall out" for attention. I also think some people might get overwhelmed by emotion. I don't think it's all phony, though, by any means. I've seen some things I can't explain rationally (such as healings). I'm kind of weird for my particular breed of Christian (I lean toward skepticism), but I do feel that faith can and does produce interesting results sometimes.
    "Maybe Lucy's right. Of all the Charlie Browns in the world, you're the Charlie Browniest."--Linus, A Charlie Brown Christmas


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  • Dancing QueenDancing Queen Posts: 247Registered Users
    I grew up in a traditional Southern Baptist church. No frills, no real emotion. It seemed sterile to me, and I left.

    I once attended a church service where people were yelling and running through the aisles. That disturbed me, because it was loud and chaotic and not my "style" at all.

    I now attend a church that is somewhere in the middle. There is flag-waving and dancing, and I've occasionally seen people "fall out" after the elders prayed for them. It seemed very quiet and peaceful, not loud or disruptive or seizurish at all. People also occasionally pray in tongues, but in whispers, not loudly or disruptively.

    I don't know where the line is. Do people (for instance) yell and run because that's what's expected, or do all the people who feel called to yell and run congregate together at the same church?

    More importantly, do people try to convince others that salvation only comes if you run or speak in tongues or whatever? That would be a huge red flag for me, as would failing to teach that the internal experience is more important than the outward display.

    It makes sense to me that God has created us with many different preferences and personality types, so there would be many ways to worship or respond to Him. I don't know if some of those things are from Him or not, although I can tell whether they're right for me. Only God can judge our hearts.
    Psalm 30:11 "You have turned my mourning into dancing."

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  • curlylauracurlylaura Posts: 8,352Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I've never seen it in real life but I've seen this happen on TV about religion. It looks like a case of mass hysteria.

    It make me think of the Dancing Plague.
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  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,391Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    It would be pretty cool if this thread got sidetracked into a debate about whether linguistics and other social sciences are "real" sciences.

    no it wouldnt:-o. Its going fine just the way it is.

    I guess you haven't seen countless engineering and science majors start spazzing out online about how pointless all other pursuits are :)
  • Aphro-DeeziacAphro-Deeziac Posts: 983Registered Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    It would be pretty cool if this thread got sidetracked into a debate about whether linguistics and other social sciences are "real" sciences.

    no it wouldnt:-o. Its going fine just the way it is.

    I guess you haven't seen countless engineering and science majors start spazzing out online about how pointless all other pursuits are :)

    bachelors in sociology and masters in social work currently working as a therapist.........they would probably benefit from a lil humanizing :)

    somethings can be explained by science
    somethings can be explained but we dont have the science to do it yet
    somethings will never be explained
    somethings people will believe no matter the science or lack there of........cause its taken on faith.
    26560_1412644406072_1531382664_31035658_3971206_n.jpg

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