Obama sells out already?

eche428 · December 2008

RedCatWaves wrote: »

A_la_Nap-tural wrote: »

Personally, I feel like our conscience is always right. But some people ignore their conscience and act on their desires, which stem from the heart. That's easy to do ya know, most women do it once a month... run on emotions and hide logic in a box somewhere for about a week.

Oh, bullsh1t. Speak for yourself only, please. Maybe you lose your logic and common sense one week a month, but I do not. I hate when women make broad generalizations that we are lesser-thinking humans than men are, and therefore inferior, because we menstruate. Most women I know do not lose their minds because of menstruation.

To everything you said, RCW, THANK YOU! How insulting, A_la_Nap-tural! :thumbdown:

A_la_Nap-tural · December 2008

I didn't say we lose our minds, nor did I say that we are lesser thinking humans because we are women. Hello! Most men aren't all that emotionally in tune, many will purposely tune out their own logic and emotions for, ahem... PRIDE. The dreaded "can't we just stop and ask for directions" argument. Do we say they've lost their minds for that?.... No, we call them men!

My point was it's easy for emotions to override logic (with both sexes) and used PMS as an example. Maybe I should have used the stop for directions one....

eche428 · December 2008

Yeah, right.......... nice try.

MichelleBFT · December 2008

legends wrote: »

...except that once you convince yourself that your conscience is actually the holy spirit talking, it's only a very small leap before you start doing some really bad things because because the holy spirit told you to.

"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

ETA:

I'd question if they were actually in tune to the spirit or if they were acting on their own emotions/logic and hiding behind their religion to justify their motives, as this is usually the case.

That's convenient. Really, that totally proves my point about the lack of logic.

Well said. ITA.

RedCatWaves · December 2008

A_la_Nap-tural wrote: »

I didn't say we lose our minds, nor did I say that we are lesser thinking humans because we are women. Hello! Most men aren't all that emotionally in tune, many will purposely tune out their own logic and emotions for, ahem... PRIDE. The dreaded "can't we just stop and ask for directions" argument. Do we say they've lost their minds for that?.... No, we call them men!

My point was it's easy for emotions to override logic (with both sexes) and used PMS as an example. Maybe I should have used the stop for directions one....

Your example is still bullsh1t, and I resent it. I do not get PMS, nor do most of the women I know.

A_la_Nap-tural · December 2008

I respect your choice to be resentful.

As a side note, you and your friends should have a study done to see how that dang PMS skipped you guys. If you could bottle that, you'd make millions.

KookyCurl · December 2008

Just curious, wasn't there a court case in Britain a few years ago where a woman got off for murder on the basis of stress and PMS?

RedCatWaves · December 2008

A_la_Nap-tural wrote: »

I respect your choice to be resentful.

As a side note, you and your friends should have a study done to see how that dang PMS skipped you guys. If you could bottle that, you'd make millions.

Again with the broad generalizations. Exaggerate much? I must be some sort of female genetic anomoly if I don't experience PMS. :roll:

Medical science says that only about 40% of women (hardly most) experience mild PMS symptoms. The more severe form, PMDD, affects less than 5% of that 40%, so less than 2% of the female population puts their "logic in a box for one week a month". I guess when you're one of them, you think the whole world is like that. It's not.

Myradella3 · December 2008

I'm very comfortable with how I approach grading. Surely all college grads know that even with a rubric, there is a subjective component to grading narratives.

A_la_Nap-tural · December 2008

Good Lord! Go on and completely ignore the point of what I was saying.... It's quite natural and occurs quite often that logic and reasoning is overruled by emotion and selfish desires. Happens all the time when people fall in love... Oh excuse me, some people, cuz I'd hate to generalize and lump us all together.... Anywho... that was my bottom line so... um... yeah. That was all :tongue5:!

And about your stats....

, , articles stating that at least 80% of women experience PMS. 20-40% experience very severe symptoms interfering with daily activities.

And when you cry for no reason, that's not logic, it's your emotions (or that dang chemical imbalance). My point begins and ends there.

MimsTX · December 2008

RedCatWaves wrote: »

A_la_Nap-tural wrote: »

I respect your choice to be resentful.

As a side note, you and your friends should have a study done to see how that dang PMS skipped you guys. If you could bottle that, you'd make millions.

Again with the broad generalizations. Exaggerate much? I must be some sort of female genetic anomoly if I don't experience PMS. :roll:

Medical science says that only about 40% of women (hardly most) experience mild PMS symptoms. The more severe form, PMDD, affects less than 5% of that 40%, so less than 2% of the female population puts their "logic in a box for one week a month". I guess when you're one of them, you think the whole world is like that. It's not.

Above and beyond that... As a person WITH PMDD, I can safely say I don't put logic and reason in a box once a month either. I have horrible PMS, sure, but c'mon... there's a big difference between having the urge to cry for no real reason, and doing something inherently wrong because the 'logic' part of my brain isn't functioning.

Josephine · December 2008

NetG wrote: »

I say this as a non-Christian...

The type of thinking leading to this thread is why it's so hard to keep intelligent people in office.

It's called complex thinking. It's called believing in something. It's called being able to understand it's not all-or-nothing.

Kudos to Obama. Personally, I'd rather not see prayers in an inauguration. But I love that the man is willing to accept that there are different viewpoints out there, and work with them to help make positive change happen.

I agree.

RedCatWaves · December 2008

A_la_Nap-tural wrote: »

Good Lord! Go on and completely ignore the point of what I was saying.... It's quite natural and occurs quite often that logic and reasoning is overruled by emotion and selfish desires. Happens all the time when people fall in love... Oh excuse me, some people, cuz I'd hate to generalize and lump us all together.... Anywho... that was my bottom line so... um... yeah. That was all :tongue5:!

And about your stats....

1, 2, 3 articles stating that at least 80% of women experience PMS. 20-40% experience very severe symptoms interfering with daily activities.

And when you cry for no reason, that's not logic, it's your emotions (or that dang chemical imbalance). My point begins and ends there.

Well, when you get your info from web sources that write on a 1st grade level, I can see why you think so many women are psychotic every month. Those articles count a PIMPLE as PMS...ridiculous.

Here's an actual scietific article, peer reviewed and published, that say it's 40%.

I know the subject of PMS digresses from your point, but MY point is that PMS does not cause "most" women to put their "logic in a box for a week out of every month" and your continuing to say so contributes to the false stereotype that women are lesser than men because our emotions can't be controlled. Your statement didn't make your point, and it's blatently false and unfair to women for you to spread such lies, and I will continue to point it out as long as you keep making false statements.

mad scientist · December 2008

Its a strategic decision. This Warren dude seems like an influential guy and I'm sure he can turn a few Republican votes in the Senate if he wants to do so. If giving him a little face time at the inauguration allows Obama to get more done while in Office, that's ok with me.

Warren's views don't seem particularly controversial for a Pastor. He's not the President, Obama is. Obama has already stated his views on abortion and gay marriage. Not sure about euthanasia.

Amneris · December 2008

Wow, what a thread! A few comments:

1) I don't know why anyone would be surprised that Obama is religious. If you've read his books or his interviews, he is very open about that. He attended a Baptist church and I haven't heard of any official Baptist opinions that gay marriage is acceptable. He's always said he is for civil unions but not gay marriage. So this isn't going against anything he has already said or done.

2) I'm not sure how I feel about having prayer at an inauguration. We don't do such things in Canada. However, for us, elections are won by political parties, not individuals, and we don't vote directly for our leader. In the case of the US, it seems to be a lot more about that individual, and that person seems to get a lot of say in what they personally want for the inauguration. If they want prayer, I think that that can be very meaningful. However, I do see the point that it is expected and there is no real freedom for a non-believer to omit it if they so choose and it can seem to put pressure on others. I think that the faithful will pray for Obama whether or not Rick Warren tells us to.

3) I agree that Obama is building bridges. He's from the Black church so I doubt Rick Warren is the type of pastor he's used to, but he's one of the most high-profile and popular religious leaders in the country at present. I do see how it could look and feel to gay people and their supporters to have him there, but sometimes there is a bigger picture. Religious conservatives are a large force in your country, like it or not, so to make a small concession that has meaning to them could pay off politically in the long run to everyone's benefit.

4) Some of Rick Warren's comments were disconcerting, but generally, he isn't too extreme or controversial - this thread makes him sound like a Jerry Falwell/Pat Robertson type, and I don't think he is. He's an evangelical pastor so he has the views I would pretty much expect from someone of that position. I think it would be hard to find a Christian religious leader willing to take another viewpoint - which I realize is why some people don't like Christianity, but the fact remains that many others are Christians and I don't expect them to give up their faith because of that. I think he does some good - he gives 90% of his income to fight AIDS, and the Purpose Driven Life has helped a lot of people, so Obama probably admired that and thought he was the most acceptable choice. He's certainly a huge improvement over the religious leaders Bush liked.

5) I think the dialogue opened by this decision could be fruitful even though it will be painful for some - without struggle, there can be no progress.

6) LOL at frau and the sellout comment - that didn't sit too well with me either.

7) I agree that many people of faith cannot separate that aspect of themselves from the rest of their life whether or not they publicly profess it, just as people not of faith carry their beliefs and worldviews everywhere with them. I do agree with the separation of church and state, but it seems that some want to go further and ban any mention of religion even in peoples' personal lives. They seem to want to guilt, harangue and, if they could, legislate everyone into being an atheist - reverse proselytization in a way. I think the ideal is that anyone can believe or not believe whatever they want and everyone is able to coexist and respect one another's beliefs.

8) I understood what Myradella meant. I can see how what she wrote would come across badly to those who don't have her perspective, but I agree that she's talking about ethics and conscience in a different way than a secular-minded person would describe them, but basically meaning the same thing. I think some people reacted really strongly in a way that wasn't warranted. I think many people have had times in their lives where they overreacted or misreacted to another person and were unduly harsh. Unfortunately, not everyone realizes they are being unfair and apologizes and corrects it. In Myradella's case, she had the opportunity to do so. If someone else did so due to their morals and ethics, that would also be good. Lots of people don't - and lots of professors give out unfair grades. I have a prof whose religious beliefs I know nothing about, and she told us that she has a special system for ranking exams to try and be as fair as possible to us, because she has seen so much unfair grading in her lifetime.

9) I agree with RCW on the PMS. It is so offensive, and tiring, to hear women belittling ourselves over this (and I read it a lot more on these boards than I hear or see it in real life. With all the women around me on a daily basis, I rarely see or hear anyone having a PMS meltdown and cannot tell from their behaviour where they are in their cycle and I assume most of them menstruate regularly. I would assume that pre-menstrual women have written exams, performed on stage, worked in the office, cared for their children, etc. etc. -I know I have.) I also think with the statistics, we should keep in mind that while many women have some mild symptoms, not everyone has them every cycle. I have sometimes been emotional and weepy pre-menstrually, but generally also connected to other things going on in my life and my stress and fatigue level - I think it's more acceptable socially to let it out pre-menstrually- but certainly not every month or even most months. And sure, often my appetite is a little bigger because my body needs the extra energy, but that just means I need a few more calories, not that I am consumed by some monster - if you don't make it a problem, it won't be. I think looking at natural changes in the body as a problem or sickness is also part of the problem.

RedCatWaves · December 2008

Apparently, the ongoing backlash over the choice of Warren to give the prayer has done some good. Warren's church has taken down all the nasty hate-filled anti-gay rhetoric from its website. Baby steps, but it's still progress.

Hermoineâ„¢ · January 2009

Not starting an argument here (and am not open to debate on the matter either), but, just as you can’t hold certain kinds of jobs if you’re a felon, you Cannot be an affirmed priest/minister of the cloth in any capacity (priest, monk, reverend, deacon, nun—regardless of denomination) if you appear or so are perverse or support unnatural or criminal lifestyles or habits. And without getting into his politics, he is being very true to human doctrine.

And Barack takes very seriously the responsibility he has been confirmed with and the public trust that goes with it. If you (Mr. or Ms. Average Citizen) want to entrust the security of your home/children/company, etc. to those who have grievously faltered (as informed adults, mind you), that is a risk entirely on you if you so choose to go against the way of reason, but would not be appropriate or wise for anyone who is not of a criminal mindset or history to do so or pretend to do so.

So, good luck to everyone (and please don't PM me on this matter--no annoyance here, but I think that's all I have to say)...

misspam · January 2009

Hermoineâ„¢ wrote: »

Not starting an argument here (and am not open to debate on the matter either), but, just as you can’t hold certain kinds of jobs if you’re a felon, you Cannot be an affirmed priest/minister of the cloth in any capacity (priest, monk, reverend, deacon, nun—regardless of denomination) if you appear or so are perverse or support unnatural or criminal lifestyles or habits. And without getting into his politics, he is being very true to human doctrine.

And Barack takes very seriously the responsibility he has been confirmed with and the public trust that goes with it. If you (Mr. or Ms. Average Citizen) want to entrust the security of your home/children/company, etc. to those who have grievously faltered (as informed adults, mind you), that is a risk entirely on you if you so choose to go against the way of reason, but would not be appropriate or wise for anyone who is not of a criminal mindset or history to do so or pretend to do so.

So, good luck to everyone (and please don't PM me on this matter--no annoyance here, but I think that's all I have to say)...

I have read this post over and over again, and I gotta say, huh????

:dontknow: :scratch: :goofy: :confused2:

MichelleBFT · January 2009

Right there with ya, misspam.

misspam · January 2009

MichelleBFT wrote: »

Right there with ya, misspam.

Good to know I'm not alone in my bewilderment! :compress:

RedCatWaves · January 2009

Hermoineâ„¢ wrote: »

Not starting an argument here (and am not open to debate on the matter either), but, just as you can’t hold certain kinds of jobs if you’re a felon, you Cannot be an affirmed priest/minister of the cloth in any capacity (priest, monk, reverend, deacon, nun—regardless of denomination) if you appear or so are perverse or support unnatural or criminal lifestyles or habits. And without getting into his politics, he is being very true to human doctrine.

And Barack takes very seriously the responsibility he has been confirmed with and the public trust that goes with it. If you (Mr. or Ms. Average Citizen) want to entrust the security of your home/children/company, etc. to those who have grievously faltered (as informed adults, mind you), that is a risk entirely on you if you so choose to go against the way of reason, but would not be appropriate or wise for anyone who is not of a criminal mindset or history to do so or pretend to do so.

So, good luck to everyone (and please don't PM me on this matter--no annoyance here, but I think that's all I have to say)...

I'm not arguing (yet), but could you please explain this post, because I don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Thanks.

Obama sells out already?

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