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Very Disturbing: Honor Killing of Virgin

solangesolange Posts: 2,539Registered Users
3C, BSL Unstretched -
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  • gggg Posts: 1,865Registered Users
    As long as I live I will never understand that.
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  • WileE-DeadWileE-Dead Banned Posts: 24,963Banned Users
    Down w/ the double standards...
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  • afrosheenqueenafrosheenqueen Posts: 5,400Registered Users
    It disturbs me that a father would be so obsessed with his daughter's sex life that he would kill her to protect the family "honor". It smacks of jealousy (like something a spurned lover would do) not honor.
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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,258Registered Users
    Sad. This type of stuff will not end til women in that country stand up and demand their rights and to no longer be treated like property and chattel.
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,258Registered Users
    I found it disturbing that the results of her autopsy showing she was still a virgin were released to the public. Even in death, she was judged by the state of her hymen. No privacy. No common decency. No respect. No rights.
  • mayimmayim Posts: 2,301Registered Users
    this nauseates me. it stupefies me that this sort of mindset still exists, but it shouldn't. it's the sort of thing that eats away at your hopeful side. the trouble is, in many places, an act like this - or at the very least the attitudes that are at the root of it - are the norm rather than the exception. i wish the women's movement had a dr. king.

    m
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  • redcelticcurlsredcelticcurls Posts: 17,502Registered Users
    From the article:

    But attempts to introduce harsher sentences have been blocked by conservative lawmakers who argue that tougher penalties would lead to promiscuity.


    I'm not surprised, but I'm still disgusted. Men do it and slide by. Women do it (or not) and are killed.
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  • hayseedladyhayseedlady Posts: 646Registered Users
    As if Virginity is really that important. Countries that are stuck in the 10th century scare me.

    I wish I still had my avatar up.

    WWAD?
  • fraufrau Posts: 6,130Registered Users
    it boils my blood when i read things like this. i want to do something, but i can barely help memebers of my own family from doing things i disapprove of....
    thank you for posting the article.
  • ScarletScarlet Posts: 3,125Registered Users
    This happens all the time.
    The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics - Thomas Sowell
  • SuZenSuZen Posts: 1,595Registered Users
    I've also read that it's common to punish a man who has committed a crime by imprisoning or even killing a female relative who has done absolutely nothing wrong. Makes my blood boil.
  • iris427iris427 Posts: 6,002Registered Users
    One of my anthropology professors has a couple of stories about honor killings on his website:
    Family Honor and Abuse
    >A conversation with an Afghan woman in St Louis who has been working in a clinic that seeks to help people recover from the trauma of war in their home countries. Many of the women have indeed been deeply traumatized by events that took place in their homeland. My contact has been surprised, however, at how many of the Afghan women have been traumatized by their own relatives. Events behind the compound walls can be deeply wounding. An example: A Pushtun woman from one of the eastern provinces had resisted allowing herself to be tattooed, a practice required of married women in that region. Eventually her husband’s family, with whom she was living, lost patience with her and forced her to be tattooed. Her mother-in-law bound her hands and they restrained her as they tattooed the telltale marks on her face – four dots on her forehead and dots above and below her lips. The instrument was apparently septic and it caused her face to swell up; she was unable to eat for days. She survived but was deeply shaken by the ordeal. In her clinical sessions here she repeatedly expressed remorse and shame that she was tattooed. Eventually, the clinician came to realize how deeply the experience was to her, and was able to arrange for the tattoo to be removed by cosmetic surgery.


    >When I was living in Kabul in the 1950s I was single and fresh out of college. Across the street lived a family with three children, about the ages of 13, 12, 11. The 11 year old was a very pretty girl, I thought. The father was a lower echelon diplomat in the Foreign Ministry; he had in fact been assigned to Washington for a couple of years; I remember his explaining to me how perceptive Muhammad had been to forbid the consumption of pork, as it turned out to be especially vulnerable to disease in hot climates. After I left Kabul I lost track of the family. Years later I met a young woman of the same name as the pretty 11 year old daughter of the diplomat I had known across the street in Kabul. I happened to ask her if she could have known that girl, as they were about the same age. She said she did know her and told me what had happened to her: She had gone to Kabul University after graduating from high school and there she fell in love with a young man and they eloped. Eventually she returned home to see her family. With her in the house her father turned up the stereo so that the neighbors would not hear what he would do, and he then shot her dead. Family honor.
    3027585431_55b6195e50_s.jpg3028374752_0df4d81a1b_s.jpg3028422696_8dcef38baa_s.jpg
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  • curlylauracurlylaura Posts: 8,352Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    OMG. How awful.

    I've heard of this happening in some parts of India and Pakistan. I'm not sure but I'm sure there have been cases of this happening in the UK as well.

    I will never understand the thinking behind it.
    Fat does not make you fat. It's actually pretty important.
  • SuZenSuZen Posts: 1,595Registered Users
    Simple. Women are property.
  • three rivers curlythree rivers curly Posts: 994Registered Users
    Honor killings and female castration. These are 2 things that I will never understand about different cultures. Never.
    Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

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  • sarasarasarasara Posts: 1,561Registered Users
    I'm not going to defend the man for murdering, but I do want to explain WHY they think killing is the solution, being Middle Eastern and knowing how people think, I know what the murderer was thining.

    Whoever just mentioned something about virginity not being important, I don't know if you've heard of this but losing your virginity before marriage is one of the biggest sins, and people in the ME take traditions and religion pretty seriously.

    Now in Islam, there is a punishment for premarital sex, but people feel that that punishment isn't going to do anyhting for their "honor" so they kill.

    In the ME, a man will almost never marry a woman if she's not a virgin (except if she was married before). And marriage is pretty important. Almost every man and woman want to get married. This girl who lost her virginity ruined the chance for her sisters/cousins/even brothers to get married because this family is a "bad" family.

    Now that's not the important thing. The important thing is that the family's reputation will be ****. What I mean by **** is that when the father enters a cofee shop, people will stare, people will laugh, people will look at him in disgust. It means when his brother goes to his college or school his friends will make fun of him because his sister's a slut, and that his mother is probably one too and her father's probably a p!mp. And when her sister goes to her school/college/whatever, all her friends will run away from her so that they won't get a bad reputation by sitting with her. She'll be walking and everyone would be whispering/laughing...etc at her. Guys would pass by and say really rude comments. Do you know how a person gets a bad reputation for being a terrorist in the US, and everyone runs away from them? Well, it's the same thing if a girl slept with a guy without marriage. Even if the man moves away to another continent, people will still talk about him.

    So what does this man do to prove to people that he does not accept his daughter's behavior and so that his other daughters and sons may have a chance in marriage?

    He kills his daughter.

    So that even if he'll go to jail and spend the rest of his life there, maybe his sons'friends won't say that his mother a prostitute and that his daughter will have friends.

    Again, I'm not defending him, what he did was wrong, but I'm trying to explain why people think certain ways. However weird they are.
  • sarasarasarasara Posts: 1,561Registered Users
    Oh yes, I would also like to add that if the "conservative lawmakers" were as religious as they thought they were, they would need to kill the father also, since the punishment for murdering without reason in Islam is death.
  • internetchickinternetchick Posts: 6,191Registered Users
    Thank you for sharing that sarasara. Obviously I don't agree with that line of thinking though.
  • sarasarasarasara Posts: 1,561Registered Users
    No problem
  • mayimmayim Posts: 2,301Registered Users
    so what happens to the family honor if a man loses his virginity before marriage (or has extra-marital relations) ?


    (obviously this is primarily rhetorical, but i'm still interested in hearing the answer).

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  • wild_sasparillawild_sasparilla Posts: 4,306Registered Users
    SuZen wrote:
    I've also read that it's common to punish a man who has committed a crime by imprisoning or even killing a female relative who has done absolutely nothing wrong. Makes my blood boil.

    Raping a wife or female relative is also used as a punishment for males. There are many sickening stories about innocent women being gangraped for things their male relatives may or may not have done.
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  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    mayim wrote:
    so what happens to the family honor if a man loses his virginity before marriage (or has extra-marital relations) ?


    (obviously this is primarily rhetorical, but i'm still interested in hearing the answer).

    m

    I've been told by women whose countries of origin have a tradition of honor killings (though their families certainly didn't practice it) that the men are also *expected* to be killed, but usually are not found out. And if they are, they're given an excuse. The first part happens because men don't have hymens and can't get pregnant, and the second is of course the virulently misogynistic patriarchal system.
  • sarasarasarasara Posts: 1,561Registered Users
    Are you asking about the "punishment" or what happens to the family honor?

    If it's about the "family honor" and the man isn't married, I don't think much really happens to the "family honor." The problem occurs when this man wants to get married, where some people don't mind, some people do. He would probably only dream of marrying a rich girl from a high class family if he had that kind of reputation though, nontheless, he probably will marry, except not his dream girl, which of course is a beautiful virgin from a high class family.

    I'm not really sure what happens to the "family honor" if he's married and is cheating on his wife, but I'm sure that the consequences of this will be much more serious. Anyway, if he's married and sleeping with another woman, he's supposed to be stoned to death (In Islam, there are only 3 cases where a person's punishment is death: If he/she kills, if he/she converts, or if he/she sleeps with someone else while married), so either way, he should be dead.
  • three rivers curlythree rivers curly Posts: 994Registered Users
    Shouldn't there be a price for taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage? Shouldn't he in fact lose his life for taking a family's honor?
    Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

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  • sarasarasarasara Posts: 1,561Registered Users
    Do you actually think they'll leave the man alone if they find out that he slept with his daughter/sister/wife..etc?

    There have been many real stories where the family finds out and they do murder the guy, but they usually don't go parading around saying who they slept with.

    ETA: I don't know if any of you misunderstood, but nor the woman nor the man should be killed if they aren't married, so just as much as the girl shouldn't be killed,same goes for the guy. I also wanted to add that any girl who does this really is stupid because she knows what kind of society she lives in and what harsh consequences she'll face, and that the person who slept with her is probably boasting to his friends rather than getting attacked by his family.
  • KateRobertsKateRoberts Posts: 286Registered Users
    Shouldn't there be a price for taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage? Shouldn't he in fact lose his life for taking a family's honor?

    Having sex outside marriage is VERY big deal.

    For premarital or extra-marital sex, the punishment for both males and females is actually the same. (public flogging for premarital, and death for extra-marital).

    But people are hypocrites and this doesn't happen....so the burden is upon the women (unfortunately and this is very wrong).

    Amongst the families I know in the US: if its either a male or female, that person is frowned upon and will have a VERY difficult (if not impossible) time getting married.
  • KateRobertsKateRoberts Posts: 286Registered Users
    sarasara wrote:
    Do you actually think they'll leave the man alone if they find out that he slept with his daughter/sister/wife..etc?

    There have been many real stories where the family finds out and they do murder the guy, but they usually don't go parading around saying who they slept with.

    Ditto.
  • sarasarasarasara Posts: 1,561Registered Users
    Shouldn't there be a price for taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage? Shouldn't he in fact lose his life for taking a family's honor?

    I know that because you're a female, therefore you're defending the female, but...The way you're talking sounds as if the woman is stupid and doesn't know what consequences she'll face if she willingly slep with a man. If this woman knows how to have sex, then she also knows that his family won't do much to him if they found out. She has not been raped, she willingly agreed to sleeping with him, so IMO, she's to blame for destroying her own "family honor".

    He's responsible for his family honor, not her's. He didn't rape her.

    ETA:
    For premarital or extra-marital sex, the punishment for both males and females is actually the same. (public flogging for premarital, and death for extra-marital).

    Thanks for adding that. I wanted to explain that but only know how to say it in Arabic (the "flogging" )
  • geekygeeky Posts: 4,995Registered Users
    sarasara wrote:
    Shouldn't there be a price for taking a woman's virginity outside of marriage? Shouldn't he in fact lose his life for taking a family's honor?

    I know that because you're a female, therefore you're defending the female, but...The way you're talking sounds as if the woman is stupid and doesn't know what consequences she'll face if she willingly slep with a man. If this woman knows how to have sex, then she also knows that his family won't do much to him if they found out. She has not been raped, she willingly agreed to sleeping with him, so IMO, she's to blame for destroying her own "family honor".

    He's responsible for his family honor, not her's. He didn't rape her.

    Isn't it true that under Islamic law a rape victim must produce several Muslim male witnesses to the act in order for it to be considered rape? Otherwise, it's just extramarital sex. Surely no man who wants to rape a woman is stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses.
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  • KateRobertsKateRoberts Posts: 286Registered Users
    geeky wrote:
    Isn't it true that under Islamic law a rape victim must produce several Muslim male witnesses to the act in order for it to be considered rape? Otherwise, it's just extramarital sex. Surely no man who wants to rape a woman is stupid enough to do it in front of witnesses.

    I *believe* to prove any sexual relations outside marriage, witnesses must be produced (doesn't have to be male witnesses).

    But I am not sure how its done in cases of rape.
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