Need Experienced Advice about BTMS

Greatcurls

I'm seriously considering making my own leave-in using BTMS. My hair tangles easily and is very porous.
I've had success with products that lists BTMS after water because most of the times it closes the cuticles and makes my hair soft and moisturized.

Below are some questions for you:

1. What are the differences, if any, between BTMS and BTMS-50?

2. Does combining Cetearyl Alcohol with BTMS make the effect better?

3. If the hair is very porous, does one need to use more BTMS?

I hope that you can answer my questions. All suggestions, comments, and advice are appreciated!

coilynapp

1. What are the differences, if any, between BTMS and BTMS-50?
BTMS: Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol
BTMS-50: Behentrimonium Methosulfate (and) Cetyl Alcohol (and) Butylene Glycol

BTMS-50 contains less fatty alcohol than BTMS (which might make it less conditioning?) and has an added humectant (Butylene glycol--I think it is petroleum based, but not sure). Makes less viscous emulsions

taken from lotioncrafters.com
Lotioncrafter BTMS-50 is 50% active Behenyl (C22) quaternary conditioning agent and [URL="javascript:void(0);"]cationic[/URL] emulsifier provided in pastille form. It contains no ethoxylated ingredients. It is supplied volatile-free and at the highest possible activity. As a higher active form of Lotioncrafter BTMS, it contains less fatty alcohol and offers adjustable conditioning, allowing the formulator to manipulate the quat:fatty alcohol ratio and customize their product's conditioning performance. Behentrimonium Methosulfate is a quaternary ammonium salt derived from the natural plant oil Colza. It is both a mild primary emulsifier and an excellent conditioning agent, which provides elegant [URL="javascript:void(0);"]cationic[/URL] emulsions for both skin and hair care products. These creams tend to resist wash off, leaving a soft, powdery feel on the skin and imparting excellent detangling properties to hair conditioners. In a hair conditioner, it offers improved wet comb and leaves hair with noticeable body and spring. Due to its extreme mildness, it is suitable for leave-in conditioners. BTMS-50 can be used as a co-emulsifier with Polawax, adding its conditioning properties to emulsions.

2. Does combining Cetearyl Alcohol with BTMS make the effect better?

I would assume so. But it might also make your product heavier, which might not be ideal for a leave in.


3. If the hair is very porous, does one need to use more BTMS?

I'm not sure about that, but you should use the recommended percent 1-10%. For conditoner, really not more than 6%, for a leave-in 2-3% (3 will make a thick lotion like leave in)


HTH

curlymaybe

I've never used BTMS-50, but I use BTMS all the time...
BTMS-50 has a higher percentage of BTMS (50% active ingredient compared to 25% in regular BTMS). Like the quote from coilynapp says, you can adjust the conditioning level of BTMS-50 by using varying amounts of fatty alcohols.

I would definitely use a fatty alcohol in combination with BTMS. The fatty alcohols boost the BTMS by giving it more slip, which is always a good thing. For 2-3% BTMS, I would add 1-1.5% cetyl or cetearyl alcohol. How thick your final product will be depends upon how much water, oil and additives you use.

The great thing about BTMS is it is relatively simple to use, and the end product is very nice (don't forget to use distilled water and a preservative!) If you need any help feel free to PM me.

Greatcurls

Thanks, curlymaybe! I will!

belasuna

I'll add some other info that might be helpful.

1. BTMS-50 has the added Butylene Glycol which is made from petroleum, so consider this when deciding to use BTMS-50.

2. Since both already contain cetearyl alcohol, adding more is only necessary if you have an oil heavy mix and want additional emulsifying stability. Plus is enhances the thickness and feel of a product.

3. porous hair needs more moisture and then needs that moisture to be locked in. you don't necessarily need more BTMS, but make sure your formula provides a good amount of moisturizing ingredients. Since you are making a leave in, use BTMS-50 unless you don't want the butelyne glycol. Use BTMS in that case w/o adding extra cetearyl alcohol for a thinner product. You can add other ingredients like shea butter or other hard/semihard butters to provide more moisturization and thicken the mix up if you desire.

Greatcurls

Thanks belasuna! I'm still looking at different recipes. So far, I'd like to use the following ingredients for my leave-in. I'm still thinking about the percentages:

1. BTMS-
2. Incroquat CR Concentrate-
3. Polyquaternium 7-
4. AquaEm-
5. Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein-
6.dl Panthenol-
7. Tamanu Oil-
8. GuarSilk-
9. Chamomile Hydrosol-

I would love to include all of these in the leave-in, but I'm still investigating whether I can, and if the leave-in will be as moisturizing as I need it to be.

Mochachino

Greatcurls

Have you used the GuarSilk yet. Do you think it is a good substitute for the btms.

belasuna

Greatcurls wrote: »

Thanks belasuna! I'm still looking at different recipes. So far, I'd like to use the following ingredients for my leave-in. I'm still thinking about the percentages:

1. BTMS- 2%
2. Incroquat CR Concentrate- 3%
3. Polyquaternium 7- 2%
4. AquaEm- 1%
5. Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein- 1-2%
6.dl Panthenol- 1-2%
7. Tamanu Oil- 1-2%
8. GuarSilk- 0.2%
9. Chamomile Hydrosol- 50% of the remainder + 50% distilled water (since CH is expensive or your could use 100% remainder of CH)

I would love to include all of these in the leave-in, but I'm still investigating whether I can, and if the leave-in will be as moisturizing as I need it to be.

Looks like you got your ingredients form the herbarie. They have an incroquat conditioner in their formulary that might work. I adapted it with suggested % above. I think the final product won't be too thick. If you want thicker, increase incroquat and btms to 5%. if you want more moisture, increase the tamanu oil to 5%--but all the ingredients listed above provide moisture, esp if you use 50% Chamomile hydrosol.

Mochachino wrote: »

Greatcurls

Have you used the GuarSilk yet. Do you think it is a good substitute for the btms.

guarsilk is a thickener that has great conditioning abilities, however, it is not an emulsifier. you can't use it as a substitute for btms since guarsilk won't blend oils and water. plus guarsilk should be used at about 0.2 -0.5% for a product with nice flow; at 1% (the max) a you'll have a product that is like a thick gel.

Mochachino

Thanks Belasuna

I will purchase both the guarsik and btms.

Greatcurls

Mochachino wrote: »

Greatcurls

Have you used the GuarSilk yet. Do you think it is a good substitute for the btms.

I haven't used it yet. I've been researching some other ingredients. Ever since I used [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/MYHoneyChild-Honey-and-Horsetail-Reconstructor-p-766.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=myhoneychild-honey-and-horsetail-reconstructor]MyHoneyChild Honey and Horsetail Reconstructor[/buylink], I've been interested in horsetail. As I was placing it on my hair, the tangles disappeared. So I'm hoping to repeat that same result. Here are the ingredients of the conditioner:

Purified Water, Mango Butter, Horsetail, Avocado Oil, Colza Oil, Wheat Germ Oil, Vitamin E, Jojoba Oil, Honey, Hydrolyzed Sweet Almond Protein, Olive Oil, Hibiscus Extract, Essential Oils Of Apis Meliferra, Lavender, Pink Grapefruit, Ylang Ylang, Bergamot, Cardamom, and Patchouli.

I hope I'm accurate to say that it's the Horsetail extract. Still researching...

Your comments have been helpful, keep them coming!:thumright:

coilynapp

Greatcurls wrote: »

Mochachino wrote: »

Greatcurls

Have you used the GuarSilk yet. Do you think it is a good substitute for the btms.

I haven't used it yet. I've been researching some other ingredients. Ever since I used [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/MYHoneyChild-Honey-and-Horsetail-Reconstructor-p-766.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=myhoneychild-honey-and-horsetail-reconstructor]MyHoneyChild Honey and Horsetail Reconstructor[/buylink], I've been interested in horsetail. As I was placing it on my hair, the tangles disappeared. So I'm hoping to repeat that same result. Here are the ingredients of the conditioner:

Purified Water, Mango Butter, Horsetail, Avocado Oil, Colza Oil, Wheat Germ Oil, Vitamin E, Jojoba Oil, Honey, Hydrolyzed Sweet Almond Protein, Olive Oil, Hibiscus Extract, Essential Oils Of Apis Meliferra, Lavender, Pink Grapefruit, Ylang Ylang, Bergamot, Cardamom, and Patchouli.

I hope I'm accurate to say that it's the Horsetail extract. Still researching...

Your comments have been helpful, keep them coming!:thumright:

horsetail is a strengthener. It contains a high percentage of silica (which our skin, hair and nails need to grow). I don't think that is what "melted your tangles"

There is lots of butter and oil in the product and that's what probably helped (along with the BTMS, which I am assuming in the colza oil because I cannot see any other emulsifier)

Greatcurls

coilynapp wrote: »

horsetail is a strengthener. It contains a high percentage of silica (which our skin, hair and nails need to grow). I don't think that is what "melted your tangles"

There is lots of butter and oil in the product and that's what probably helped (along with the BTMS, which I am assuming in the colza oil because I cannot see any other emulsifier)

Hmmm...just trying to narrow it down, perhaps the Colza oil (BTMS), avocado oil, and mango butter?...
I've only had detangled hair after deep conditioning, not before.

coilynapp

Greatcurls wrote: »

coilynapp wrote: »

horsetail is a strengthener. It contains a high percentage of silica (which our skin, hair and nails need to grow). I don't think that is what "melted your tangles"

There is lots of butter and oil in the product and that's what probably helped (along with the BTMS, which I am assuming in the colza oil because I cannot see any other emulsifier)

Hmmm...just trying to narrow it down, perhaps the Colza oil (BTMS), avocado oil, and mango butter?...
I've only had detangled hair after deep conditioning, not before.

BTMS is derived from colza oil. Colza oil does not emulsify stuff though. It seems that their list of ingredients is incomplete (I also looked at the other products on their site and they never list an emulsifier for the deep conditioners, so it could be BTMS or any other emulsifier)

oils and butters provide slip and do aid in detangling because they lubricate the hair

Greatcurls

I'm also looking at the humectant, sorbitol. From what I've read, some sources indicate that it's more compatible with the hair than glycerin.

I'll eventually narrow down my list of ingredients!

Greatcurls

UPDATE:

I will soon begin to "create" my leave-in conditioner. I've been doing some research, paused for a while, now am ready for the plunge. If you can help me, please feel free to chime in!

The criteria for my leave-in:

1. Must be moisturizing for very dry, porous hair.
2. Can be used throughout the day WITHOUT wetting the hair as well as after a shampoo.
3. Conditioning effects must be cumulative.
4. Must be moisturizing no matter if the weather is dry, humid, etc.

The ingredients, especially the percentages, will be key.

Thanks in advance for your help!

joycurl

Bump!

ricankinks

Bump!

Greatcurls

Thanks for the bumps! Even though I've found other products, I still want to make my leave-in. I've been looking at ingredients, mainly to see their order. I still want to include Tamanu oil, silk and wheat proteins, and BTMS. Here are the leave-in's I'm using:

Taliah Waajid Protective Mist Bodifier
Max Professional Braids Off! Tangle Free
(I've ordered LongHairLovers Leave-in Treatment)

One commonality with the Bodifier and the Braids Off! is that they have a type of "herbal tea" as the second or third ingredient. The ingredients also include propylene glycol as well as glycerin, and a quat. The order is usually water, then the "herbal tea", quat or humectant.

I wish I knew the ratios!

coilynapp

Greatcurls wrote: »

Thanks for the bumps! Even though I've found other products, I still want to make my leave-in. I've been looking at ingredients, mainly to see their order. I still want to include Tamanu oil, silk and wheat proteins, and BTMS. Here are the leave-in's I'm using:

Taliah Waajid Protective Mist Bodifier
Max Professional Braids Off! Tangle Free
(I've ordered LongHairLovers Leave-in Treatment)

One commonality with the Bodifier and the Braids Off! is that they have a type of "herbal tea" as the second or third ingredient. The ingredients also include propylene glycol as well as glycerin, and a quat. The order is usually water, then the "herbal tea", quat or humectant.

I wish I knew the ratios!

you just have to experiment and find the ratios. A good starting point is looking at the recommended usage amounts for each of the ingredients you want to use. And "herbal tea" is just an infusion of herbs in water. You can use all water, part water part herbal tea or all herbal tea. It's up to you

cocodej

Saw this thread and thought I'd bump up instead of creating another.

Do anyone have an idea about how I can use BTMS in an oil to create an Anita Grant dupe? The Sapote Castor Hair Oil would be an example. I want to try an oil based leave-in during the winter that has some detangling properties. What proportion by weight would be appropriate? Some of the reviewers of the Anita Grant oils state that they were amazed by the slip.

I have been toying with this idea for a while since I have BTMS and a slew of other oils at home. I am day-dreaming about a sunflower, jojoba, coconut, and castor blend scented with rosemary, cedar, and peppermint essential oils.

Thanks for any guidance!

Farah85

bump!

Also, I was wondering if any of you mixtresses out there use any particular books to learn the basics of mixing things like conditioners... I've been looking for something to learn the basics but can't find anything online. Where do you guys learn these basics?

Thanks!

cocodej

Farah85 wrote: »

bump!

Also, I was wondering if any of you mixtresses out there use any particular books to learn the basics of mixing things like conditioners... I've been looking for something to learn the basics but can't find anything online. Where do you guys learn these basics?

Thanks!

This site was really helpful when I began to do oil in water emulsions. They have even tried to dupe the Curl Junkie Daily Cleansing Cream and an Ojon Mask as experiments. They also have a Hydrophilic-Lipophilic Balance worksheet along the right link bar; Susan is a really amazing and generous blogger! I would also recommend the Herbarie for base recipes that if you maintained the oil to emulsifier ratio, you could easier tweak. This video is a good basic intro to oil in water emulsions. Bramble Berry also has a video on making conditioner.

The biggest thing I have learned is that measurement BY weight and NOT volume is really important.

HTH!

Farah85

cocodej wrote: »

Farah85 wrote: »

bump!

Also, I was wondering if any of you mixtresses out there use any particular books to learn the basics of mixing things like conditioners... I've been looking for something to learn the basics but can't find anything online. Where do you guys learn these basics?

Thanks!

This site was really helpful when I began to do oil in water emulsions. They have even tried to dupe the Curl Junkie Daily Cleansing Cream and an Ojon Mask as experiments. They also have a Hydrophilic-Lipophilic Balance worksheet along the right link bar; Susan is a really amazing and generous blogger! I would also recommend the Herbarie for base recipes that if you maintained the oil to emulsifier ratio, you could easier tweak. This video is a good basic intro to oil in water emulsions. Bramble Berry also has a video on making conditioner.

The biggest thing I have learned is that measurement BY weight and NOT volume is really important.

HTH!

Oh my! This is exactly the sort of resource I've been scavenging for. I am so grateful. Thank you!

sevenslove

Your post are great. I'm currently thinking of making my own mixes...especially a leave in because often I haven't found that one product that works for me. I just don't want a watery one. :?I'm currently a transitioner and plan to stick with it for at least 1.5 years....maybe 2 and then I will do a BC. I love my rod sets too much to cut. God thing is my shed and breakage is not a problem.