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Anyone watch the president's address to congress tonight?

curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
A rep from South Carolina yelled out that Obama is a liar during the speech.

Sounds like a town hall meeting...

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
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Comments

  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    No less than two hours later....the mea culpa comes.

    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpoliticalticker.blogs.cnn.com%2F" class="Popup

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    His website is currently not accessible....uh-oh. LOL

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • wild~hairwild~hair Posts: 9,890Registered Users
    I listened to it [no tv]. I enjoyed it. A good amount of bully pulpit in that speech.

    Yeah, that guy who yelled, "You lie!" — what a fine example he is. :rolleyes: He has since apologized [ETA: I missed your post] but I was shocked, never heard anything like that during a presidential speech to congress. Wow.

    Let's hope that the vacuum in the Republican party leadership is filled, and soon. We have a lot to do, and at this point they're just flat out shirking their responsibilities.

    ETA2: I heard that that speech should appeal mostly to moderates. [And I've had suspicions that I might be a moderate for quite a while now, even though I lean left.]

    So if people on the left and people on the right aren't happy, that leaves the rest of us, and that is a really large group of people. Sounds good to me!
  • TrenellTrenell Posts: 3,562Registered Users
    He then tried to call Obama to apologize personally, but ended up talking with White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel instead, Wilson's office said.


    This made me giggle
  • BBBB Posts: 475Registered Users
    Trenell wrote: »
    He then tried to call Obama to apologize personally, but ended up talking with White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel instead, Wilson's office said.


    This made me giggle

    Trenell, we were talking about that at work. Can you imagine that conversation? How many times do you think Rahm called him MF?

    I could picture Obama in the room trying not to laugh.
    A coward is incapable of exhibiting love; it is the prerogative of the brave.

    -Mohandas Gandhi
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    BB wrote: »
    Trenell wrote: »
    He then tried to call Obama to apologize personally, but ended up talking with White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel instead, Wilson's office said.
    This made me giggle

    Trenell, we were talking about that at work. Can you imagine that conversation? How many times do you think Rahm called him MF?

    I could picture Obama in the room trying not to laugh.

    Let's see....It's okay for Rahm to call Joe a MF, but NOT okay for Joe to call the President a liar.

    I think I get it.:goofy:
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    BB wrote: »
    Trenell wrote: »
    This made me giggle

    Trenell, we were talking about that at work. Can you imagine that conversation? How many times do you think Rahm called him MF?

    I could picture Obama in the room trying not to laugh.

    Let's see....It's okay for Rahm to call Joe a MF, but NOT okay for Joe to call the President a liar.

    I think I get it.:goofy:

    Um, you've no (and no one else on this thread either) idea what Rahm Emanuel said to that man other than what was reported (if anything else). So get all googley-eyed you want. This is just distraction from the fact that Wilson was wrong. What you do know is the representative from South Carolina showed his ass, realized this was political suicide (because he's acting as out of control and uncivilized as many people have been at those town meetings), and started backpedalling.

    The man was as disrespectful to Obama as the shoe-throwing reporter was to Bush. Believer it or not, that was not the time or the place to call the POTUS a liar. Maybe later on FOX news would have been more appropriate.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    curlyarca wrote: »
    Kitschy wrote: »
    BB wrote: »

    Trenell, we were talking about that at work. Can you imagine that conversation? How many times do you think Rahm called him MF?

    I could picture Obama in the room trying not to laugh.

    Let's see....It's okay for Rahm to call Joe a MF, but NOT okay for Joe to call the President a liar.

    I think I get it.:goofy:

    Um, you've no (and no one else on this thread either) idea what Rahm Emanuel said to that man other than what was reported (if anything else). So get all googley-eyed you want. This is just distraction from the fact that Wilson was wrong. What you do know is the representative from South Carolina showed his ass, realized this was political suicide (because he's acting as out of control and uncivilized as many people have been at those town meetings), and started backpedalling.

    The man was as disrespectful to Obama as the shoe-throwing reporter was to Bush. Believer it or not, that was not the time or the place to call the POTUS a liar. Maybe later on FOX news would have been more appropriate.

    Um, I totally agree with you. I doubt very much if Rahm called Joe anything at all. I'm sure he was gracious in accepting Wilson's apology.

    I was simply commenting on the poster who thought Rahm might have called Wilson a MF. :confused5:
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,258Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    BB wrote: »
    Trenell wrote: »
    This made me giggle

    Trenell, we were talking about that at work. Can you imagine that conversation? How many times do you think Rahm called him MF?

    I could picture Obama in the room trying not to laugh.

    Let's see....It's okay for Rahm to call Joe a MF, but NOT okay for Joe to call the President a liar.

    I think I get it.:goofy:


    There is a certain protocol and decorum that should be maintained when the president is speaking in a formal house address. It's not the same as Rahm calling someone a MF in a non-formal setting. Do you not see the difference? It's not against the law for Wilson to make those accusations...but it sure made him look like a bitter low-class idiot. He will pay the price politically...or not.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    BB wrote: »

    Trenell, we were talking about that at work. Can you imagine that conversation? How many times do you think Rahm called him MF?

    I could picture Obama in the room trying not to laugh.

    Let's see....It's okay for Rahm to call Joe a MF, but NOT okay for Joe to call the President a liar.

    I think I get it.:goofy:


    There is a certain protocol and decorum that should be maintained when the president is speaking in a formal house address. It's not the same as Rahm calling someone a MF in a non-formal setting. Do you not see the difference? It's not against the law for Wilson to make those accusations...but it sure made him look like a bitter low-class idiot. He will pay the price politically...or not.

    I guess you don't remember dems hissing at President Bush then do you?
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    Kitschy wrote: »

    Let's see....It's okay for Rahm to call Joe a MF, but NOT okay for Joe to call the President a liar.

    I think I get it.:goofy:

    There is a certain protocol and decorum that should be maintained when the president is speaking in a formal house address. It's not the same as Rahm calling someone a MF in a non-formal setting. Do you not see the difference? It's not against the law for Wilson to make those accusations...but it sure made him look like a bitter low-class idiot. He will pay the price politically...or not.

    I guess you don't remember dems hissing at President Bush then do you?

    So you're justifying Joe Wilson's behavior. Oh, ok.

    Even he is not doing that.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    curlyarca wrote: »
    Kitschy wrote: »

    Let's see....It's okay for Rahm to call Joe a MF, but NOT okay for Joe to call the President a liar.

    I think I get it.:goofy:

    Um, you've no (and no one else on this thread either) idea what Rahm Emanuel said to that man other than what was reported (if anything else). So get all googley-eyed you want. This is just distraction from the fact that Wilson was wrong. What you do know is the representative from South Carolina showed his ass, realized this was political suicide (because he's acting as out of control and uncivilized as many people have been at those town meetings), and started backpedalling.

    The man was as disrespectful to Obama as the shoe-throwing reporter was to Bush. Believer it or not, that was not the time or the place to call the POTUS a liar. Maybe later on FOX news would have been more appropriate.

    Um, I totally agree with you. I doubt very much if Rahm called Joe anything at all. I'm sure he was gracious in accepting Wilson's apology.

    I was simply commenting on the poster who thought Rahm might have called Wilson a MF. :confused5:

    And distracting from the issue at hand.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    curlyarca wrote: »
    Kitschy wrote: »

    There is a certain protocol and decorum that should be maintained when the president is speaking in a formal house address. It's not the same as Rahm calling someone a MF in a non-formal setting. Do you not see the difference? It's not against the law for Wilson to make those accusations...but it sure made him look like a bitter low-class idiot. He will pay the price politically...or not.

    I guess you don't remember dems hissing at President Bush then do you?

    So you're justifying Joe Wilson's behavior. Oh, ok.

    Even he is not doing that.

    Actually no, I agree that Wilson should have aired his grievance outside the chamber. I'm simply pointing out the hypocrisy.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    You should try comparing apples to apples. If that's all you've got, you don't have much. I don't recall any senators or representatives screaming at Bush that he was a liar during his speeches to Congress.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    curlyarca wrote: »
    You should try comparing apples to apples. If that's all you've got, you don't have much. I don't recall anyone screaming at Bush that he was a liar during his speeches to Congress.

    I don't believe anyone did. I said dems were hissing at Bush.
    • TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05; Koppel's panel consisted of former Bush adviser Mary Matalin, former Reagan chief of staff Ken Duberstein, and former Clinton speechwriter Michael Waldman]
    • JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    I have to say Joe Wilson's outburst was not only disrespectful but a symptom of greater peril. Are we taking ourselves back to the days when congressmen (yes, men cause there werent any women in there) were dueling and beating people with walking sticks on the floor?

    I think the major issue with Obama's handling of this is he's trying way too hard to be bipartisan. Seriously.....8 years of Bush and Republicans really weren't giving 2 ****s about making sure everyone had a little something they wanted.

    In 5, 10, 20, years when baby boomers are all lining up for their medicare and active tax payers are unable to support this ish, people will look back and say "why the hell didn't we make drastic changes when we still could." This is not a case of if it ain't broke don't fix it. The system is broken and falling to pieces. Will someone, anyone take the damn reins and get some fundamental things done?

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    curlyarca wrote: »
    You should try comparing apples to apples. If that's all you've got, you don't have much. I don't recall anyone screaming at Bush that he was a liar during his speeches to Congress.

    I don't believe anyone did. I said dems were hissing at Bush.
    • TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05; Koppel's panel consisted of former Bush adviser Mary Matalin, former Reagan chief of staff Ken Duberstein, and former Clinton speechwriter Michael Waldman]
    • JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]

    That is classless and disrespectful, but again it's comparing apples to oranges.

    Now if you're going to compare dems booing and disrupting a speech Bush is giving, and repubs holding up packets of papers and waving them, shouting, and one wearing a "what bill" sign to dirupt a speech Obama is giving.....now you're comparing birds of a feather.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    curlyarca wrote: »
    I have to say Joe Wilson's outburst was not only disrespectful but a symptom of greater peril. Are we taking ourselves back to the days when congressmen (yes, men cause there werent any women in there) were dueling and beating people with walking sticks on the floor?

    I think the major issue with Obama's handling of this is he's trying way too hard to be bipartisan. Seriously.....8 years of Bush and Republicans really weren't giving 2 ****s about making sure everyone had a little something they wanted.

    In 5, 10, 20, years when baby boomers are all lining up for their medicare and active tax payers are unable to support this ish, people will look back and say "why the hell didn't we make drastic changes when we still could." This is not a case of if it ain't broke don't fix it. The system is broken and falling to pieces. Will someone, anyone take the damn reins and get some fundamental things done?

    It most certainly is a symptom of greater peril.

    It is easy to post your thoughts on a website like NC.com that appears in practice to be extremely left leaning. Demographically women, and minorities support leftist causes - and NC.com is an over representation of both demographic. (and before you accuse me of being racist, I am married to a minority and have racially mixed children in racially mixed marriages with racially mixed grandchildren. )

    What you may forget is that there is a great uprising of emotion among the right in this nation.

    Obama is stirring the pot. Be prepared for the peril to come. Don't hide your head in the sand and think that because everyone here seems to agree with you, that that is the pulse of the nation.

    It is tense.

    I am 53 years old. I haven't seen this amount of hostility among the American public ever. Even in the late 60's and 70's there wasn't this level of incivility except among the disenchanted youth.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    curlyarca wrote: »
    Kitschy wrote: »
    curlyarca wrote: »
    You should try comparing apples to apples. If that's all you've got, you don't have much. I don't recall anyone screaming at Bush that he was a liar during his speeches to Congress.

    I don't believe anyone did. I said dems were hissing at Bush.
    • TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05; Koppel's panel consisted of former Bush adviser Mary Matalin, former Reagan chief of staff Ken Duberstein, and former Clinton speechwriter Michael Waldman]
    • JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]

    That is classless and disrespectful, but again it's comparing apples to oranges.

    Now if you're going to compare dems booing and disrupting a speech Bush is giving, and repubs holding up packets of papers and waving them, shouting, and one wearing a "what bill" sign to dirupt a speech Obama is giving.....now you're comparing birds of a feather.

    When the entire Democratic or Republican delegation does it, it’s OK. When a lone Republican does it, it’s not OK.
  • YolyCYolyC Posts: 3,758Registered Users
    It was rude and I'm glad that his likely opponent received some donations as a result of this jerk's behavior.

    Trenell, we were talking about that at work. Can you imagine that conversation? How many times do you think Rahm called him MF?

    I could picture Obama in the room trying not to laugh.

    I'm lost here. Does he have a history of calling people MFs?
    Location: Chicago

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    "If you don't stand for something you will fall for anything."
    Malcolm X
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    curlyarca wrote: »
    I have to say Joe Wilson's outburst was not only disrespectful but a symptom of greater peril. Are we taking ourselves back to the days when congressmen (yes, men cause there werent any women in there) were dueling and beating people with walking sticks on the floor?

    I think the major issue with Obama's handling of this is he's trying way too hard to be bipartisan. Seriously.....8 years of Bush and Republicans really weren't giving 2 ****s about making sure everyone had a little something they wanted.

    In 5, 10, 20, years when baby boomers are all lining up for their medicare and active tax payers are unable to support this ish, people will look back and say "why the hell didn't we make drastic changes when we still could." This is not a case of if it ain't broke don't fix it. The system is broken and falling to pieces. Will someone, anyone take the damn reins and get some fundamental things done?

    It most certainly is a symptom of greater peril.

    It is easy to post your thoughts on a website like NC.com that appears in practice to be extremely left leaning. Demographically women, and minorities support leftist causes - and NC.com is an over representation of both demographic. (and before you accuse me of being racist, I am married to a minority and have racially mixed children in racially mixed marriages with racially mixed grandchildren. )

    What you may forget is that there is a great uprising of emotion among the right in this nation.

    Obama is stirring the pot. Be prepared for the peril to come. Don't hide your head in the sand and think that because everyone here seems to agree with you, that that is the pulse of the nation.

    It is tense.

    I am 53 years old. I haven't seen this amount of hostility among the American public ever. Even in the late 60's and 70's there wasn't this level of incivility except among the disenchanted youth.


    Look, trust me. I get it. The right has been running the state of Mississippi since forever and a gd day. I grew up there. Trust me, I know overt hostility when I see it. I also know the covert. And it's hardly Obama's fault for hundreds of years of hostility. You have got to be kidding me. Obama is bringing the wrath of the right down on all of us non-whites, oh ok. Because they can't help their feelings, like Wilson.

    Where do/did you live? Obviously not MS in the 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s.... Please. Adults were well in on that bs. And if you do/did, obviously your head was in the sand.

    ETA: By the way, before you accuse me of being a reckless non-whte woman....oh wait, too late.

    I love how you're saying Obama is bringing hell and brimstone from the right on all of us. Another case of knee jerk reactions being justified by you.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    curlyarca wrote: »
    Kitschy wrote: »

    I don't believe anyone did. I said dems were hissing at Bush.
    • TED KOPPEL (ABC host): When the president talked about the bankruptcy of Social Security, there were clearly some Democrats on the floor who thought that that was taking it too far. And they did something that, apparently, no one at this table has ever heard before. They booed. [ABC, Nightline, 2/2/05; Koppel's panel consisted of former Bush adviser Mary Matalin, former Reagan chief of staff Ken Duberstein, and former Clinton speechwriter Michael Waldman]
    • JOHN ROBERTS (CBS White House correspondent): At a couple points in this address, it looked more like the British Parliament than the United States Congress. I've never heard the minority party shout at the president during the State of the Union address. [CBS, post-speech coverage, 2/2/05]

    That is classless and disrespectful, but again it's comparing apples to oranges.

    Now if you're going to compare dems booing and disrupting a speech Bush is giving, and repubs holding up packets of papers and waving them, shouting, and one wearing a "what bill" sign to dirupt a speech Obama is giving.....now you're comparing birds of a feather.

    When the entire Democratic or Republican delegation does it, it’s OK. When a lone Republican does it, it’s not OK.

    Did you not see where I said it was classes and disrespectful? You just refuse to compare like to like.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    curlyarca wrote: »
    Kitschy wrote: »
    curlyarca wrote: »
    I have to say Joe Wilson's outburst was not only disrespectful but a symptom of greater peril. Are we taking ourselves back to the days when congressmen (yes, men cause there werent any women in there) were dueling and beating people with walking sticks on the floor?

    I think the major issue with Obama's handling of this is he's trying way too hard to be bipartisan. Seriously.....8 years of Bush and Republicans really weren't giving 2 ****s about making sure everyone had a little something they wanted.

    In 5, 10, 20, years when baby boomers are all lining up for their medicare and active tax payers are unable to support this ish, people will look back and say "why the hell didn't we make drastic changes when we still could." This is not a case of if it ain't broke don't fix it. The system is broken and falling to pieces. Will someone, anyone take the damn reins and get some fundamental things done?

    It most certainly is a symptom of greater peril.

    It is easy to post your thoughts on a website like NC.com that appears in practice to be extremely left leaning. Demographically women, and minorities support leftist causes - and NC.com is an over representation of both demographic. (and before you accuse me of being racist, I am married to a minority and have racially mixed children in racially mixed marriages with racially mixed grandchildren. )

    What you may forget is that there is a great uprising of emotion among the right in this nation.

    Obama is stirring the pot. Be prepared for the peril to come. Don't hide your head in the sand and think that because everyone here seems to agree with you, that that is the pulse of the nation.

    It is tense.

    I am 53 years old. I haven't seen this amount of hostility among the American public ever. Even in the late 60's and 70's there wasn't this level of incivility except among the disenchanted youth.


    Look, trust me. I get it. The right has been running the state of Mississippi since forever and a gd day. I grew up there. Trust me, I know overt hostility when I see it. I also know the covert. And it's hardly Obama's fault for hundreds of years of hostility. You have got to be kidding me. Obama is bringing the wrath of the right down on all of us non-whites, oh ok. Because they can't help their feelings, like Wilson.

    Where do/did you live? Obviously not MS in the 40s, 50s and 60s. Please. Adults were well in on that bs.

    I don't think this is racially motivated. I already told you that. I think there is a great divide between left and right and it is a fight against the ideals of socialism on the left and capitalism on the right. I'm sorry, but I think people of color are innocent pawns to the powers that be.

    And no, I didn't grow up in MS.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    I think this hostility we're seeing is racism and a healthy dose cloaked in economic policy conflict.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    curlyarca wrote: »
    I think this hostility we're seeing is racism and a healthy dose cloaked in economic policy conflict.

    I'm a righty and I'm white. Every single person in my social circle as well as in my sphere of political influence that I personally know are not motivated by race.

    You can chose to believe it or not.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    curlyarca wrote: »
    I think this hostility we're seeing is racism and a healthy dose cloaked in economic policy conflict.

    I think it is dishonest to use my quote in your signature without including the entire quote, or at least show that it has been edited.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    curlyarca wrote: »
    I think this hostility we're seeing is racism and a healthy dose cloaked in economic policy conflict.

    I'm a righty and I'm white. Every single person in my social circle as well as in my sphere of political influence that I personally know are not motivated by race.

    You can chose to believe it or not.

    Oh, I believe you.

    Are you and yours also the ones who are going to be doling out the peril, bringing on the pain? I mean, assuming you and yours represent the pulse of this nation, after all.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Kitschy wrote: »
    curlyarca wrote: »
    I think this hostility we're seeing is racism and a healthy dose cloaked in economic policy conflict.

    I think it is dishonest to use my quote in your signature without including the entire quote, or at least show that it has been edited.


    Oh you mean the "I'm not racist, I married someone who's not white/have mixed kids?" Oh ok. I will definitely leave that in. It does give it that extra something. I was just trying to figure how I could fit this gem in in it's entirety, and I will just eliminate all the dramatic indentations. But I don't think I can put your entire post in my signature. Sorry.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • anonymous_22139anonymous_22139 Posts: 659Registered Users
    It is motivated by money. Both sides are being pushed.
  • redcelticcurlsredcelticcurls Posts: 17,502Registered Users
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