"Too many Black women can say that they are MOTHERS and not WIVES."

eccentric_kurlzeccentric_kurlz Posts: 4,151Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
I would've posted this on the non-hair forum, but figured I'd get more of a response over here.

A "friend" from college posted this as his FB status. That statement had me thinking more than what I was willing to write out to him, or to some of his friends that had me going :-?.

Outside of the statistics supporting the statement, how do you feel about it?
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Comments

  • hippychichippychic Posts: 4,673Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    It's true. Although I won't say its just black woman. Many women are becoming mothers without being wives. I was talking to my sister one day (27 yo), she says people don't get married anymore. :sad5: She has been with the same guy since she was a teen.

    I think a lot of it is times have changed. There was a time when having a baby outside of wedlock was considered taboo. Then there is the financial aspect. Some woman feel like they can provide for themselves and child(ren) with/without a man. On the flip side, not all men step up to the plate either.
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  • eccentric_kurlzeccentric_kurlz Posts: 4,151Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    hippychic wrote: »
    It's true. Although I won't say its just black woman. Many women are becoming mothers without being wives. I was talking to my sister one day (27 yo), she says people don't get married anymore. :sad5: She has been with the same guy since she was a teen.

    I think a lot of it is times have changed. There was a time when having a baby outside of wedlock was considered taboo. Then there is the financial aspect. Some woman feel like they can provide for themselves and child(ren) with/without a man. On the flip side, not all men step up to the plate either.

    That was what struck me about his statement. It seemed like it was said because of his own frustration with women. Maybe that he's ready to settle down, but most of the women he's encountered have children, or aren't interested in marriage.

    And yup...times have changed, and having children outside of wedlock isn't taboo, but it also seems as folks who responded to his thread blame the moral decline of society on women not being married.

    Ummmm......last time I checked, it takes two people to create a child. Two people to be responsible as both people were involved in the action that created said child. To put ALL of the focus and responsibility on women just takes me to another place. LOL! Especially when the women are being labeled as a bunch of adjectives that aren't necessarily positive.
    What about the men who father 3-4 children at a time? What about THEIR responsibility? These women are single mothers for a reason, and marriage isn't necessarily the end all solution.
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    I have a blog now. Follow meeeee! :)

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    "You see, when it comes to language competence, a true patriot must hit that sweet spot between "job-stealing immigrant" and "liberal elitist." ~Eilonwy

    Wanna have access to the top names in fashion and luxury at up to 70% off retail? Sure you do. http://tinyurl.com/3yxneol

    DC metro area
  • hippychichippychic Posts: 4,673Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    hmmmm, why does this topic have 1 star
    LOIS (OS); cottony, TYPE 4 hair, fine/med strands; no cones bcz my hair hates them; last relaxer '98; now low porosity:?, ignores most natural hair rules; BC #8

    faves: suave, v05 shampoo, conditioner (my own), raw shea butter, castor oil, peanut oil, aloe juice
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  • eccentric_kurlzeccentric_kurlz Posts: 4,151Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    I have NO idea. I didn't do it. LOL!
    A wonderful mix of coils, curls, corkscrews, and kinks.

    http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/shyygirl_2007/
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    I have a blog now. Follow meeeee! :)

    http://naturalurbanista.blogspot.com/

    "You see, when it comes to language competence, a true patriot must hit that sweet spot between "job-stealing immigrant" and "liberal elitist." ~Eilonwy

    Wanna have access to the top names in fashion and luxury at up to 70% off retail? Sure you do. http://tinyurl.com/3yxneol

    DC metro area
  • Nappy_curly_crownNappy_curly_crown Posts: 4,162Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    I think its sad, but true.

    For a lot of women, this is the "only" thing that they can say that they have successfully done. They might not have gone to college, they might be working a deadd end job, they might not have a "man" and they might be living in paverty. But dayum it, I've got 2 kids and they are my pride and joy. :-|:-|:-|

    Not only that, I think that for black women all to often our "worth" is measured in how fertile our womb is. I'm 29, have 2 graduate degrees and am working on a PhD. The question I get asked more without a doubt is "Do I have kids"...or worse, people just assume that because I'm black and 29 that I MUST have at least 2-3 kids.:-|

    What's even sadder is that usually, other black women that have children (espically unmarried women) tend to look at me like I'm some kind of alien, because usually my response is "I dont have any children because I'm not married".

    its just an overall sad state of affairs. I have more to post but i need to gather my thoughts.
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  • RonnieajRonnieaj Posts: 304Registered Users
    hippychic wrote: »
    It's true. Although I won't say its just black woman. Many women are becoming mothers without being wives. I was talking to my sister one day (27 yo), she says people don't get married anymore. :sad5: She has been with the same guy since she was a teen.

    I think a lot of it is times have changed. There was a time when having a baby outside of wedlock was considered taboo. Then there is the financial aspect. Some woman feel like they can provide for themselves and child(ren) with/without a man. On the flip side, not all men step up to the plate either.

    That was what struck me about his statement. It seemed like it was said because of his own frustration with women. Maybe that he's ready to settle down, but most of the women he's encountered have children, or aren't interested in marriage.

    And yup...times have changed, and having children outside of wedlock isn't taboo, but it also seems as folks who responded to his thread blame the moral decline of society on women not being married.

    Ummmm......last time I checked, it takes two people to create a child. Two people to be responsible as both people were involved in the action that created said child. To put ALL of the focus and responsibility on women just takes me to another place. LOL! Especially when the women are being labeled as a bunch of adjectives that aren't necessarily positive.
    What about the men who father 3-4 children at a time? What about THEIR responsibility? These women are single mothers for a reason, and marriage isn't necessarily the end all solution.

    Amen!! I was listening to the radio about Lil' Wayne and the THREE current women he's gotten pregnant, on top of the kids he has with his ex-wife. I wish a woman would try to pull that crap! Seriously, what man thinks that type of behavior is okay, and what woman would want to put up with that ish? That type of behavior crosses a very fundamental boundary for me.

    Also, your "friends" statement doesn't explore whether women, black,white or otherwise, are mothers and not wives because they were never married, widowed, or divorced. There is not always one reason, even if only one is talked about. And as a family law attorney, I can confirm that marriage is not always the answer; I've seen more children who genuinely resent their parents for not divorcing sooner, than I care to count.
  • hippychichippychic Posts: 4,673Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    @ Ronnieaj - you are spot on in your assessment that marriage is not always the answer. It pains me to see relationships maintained 'because of the children' that are truly dysfuctional. :(
    LOIS (OS); cottony, TYPE 4 hair, fine/med strands; no cones bcz my hair hates them; last relaxer '98; now low porosity:?, ignores most natural hair rules; BC #8

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  • hippychichippychic Posts: 4,673Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I think its sad, but true.

    For a lot of women, this is the "only" thing that they can say that they have successfully done. They might not have gone to college, they might be working a deadd end job, they might not have a "man" and they might be living in paverty. But dayum it, I've got 2 kids and they are my pride and joy. :-|:-|:-|

    Not only that, I think that for black women all to often our "worth" is measured in how fertile our womb is. I'm 29, have 2 graduate degrees and am working on a PhD. The question I get asked more without a doubt is "Do I have kids"...or worse, people just assume that because I'm black and 29 that I MUST have at least 2-3 kids.:-|

    What's even sadder is that usually, other black women that have children (espically unmarried women) tend to look at me like I'm some kind of alien, because usually my response is "I dont have any children because I'm not married".

    its just an overall sad state of affairs. I have more to post but i need to gather my thoughts.
    There is absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting to have children until you are married. If this is important to you, you hold on to it. :)
    LOIS (OS); cottony, TYPE 4 hair, fine/med strands; no cones bcz my hair hates them; last relaxer '98; now low porosity:?, ignores most natural hair rules; BC #8

    faves: suave, v05 shampoo, conditioner (my own), raw shea butter, castor oil, peanut oil, aloe juice
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • eccentric_kurlzeccentric_kurlz Posts: 4,151Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    I think its sad, but true.

    For a lot of women, this is the "only" thing that they can say that they have successfully done. They might not have gone to college, they might be working a deadd end job, they might not have a "man" and they might be living in paverty. But dayum it, I've got 2 kids and they are my pride and joy. :-|:-|:-|

    Not only that, I think that for black women all to often our "worth" is measured in how fertile our womb is. I'm 29, have 2 graduate degrees and am working on a PhD. The question I get asked more without a doubt is "Do I have kids"...or worse, people just assume that because I'm black and 29 that I MUST have at least 2-3 kids.:-|

    What's even sadder is that usually, other black women that have children (espically unmarried women) tend to look at me like I'm some kind of alien, because usually my response is "I dont have any children because I'm not married".

    its just an overall sad state of affairs. I have more to post but i need to gather my thoughts.


    GIRL! I'm 28, will have my second Master's by the end of this semester, and have been asked that same question, or get a weird look when I tell them I don't and have never been pregnant. It's like it's such a foreign thing NOT to be a single mother.

    AND because I'm NOT married, I get the "Are you stuck up?" questions. Why must I be *insert label* because I'm single? No one thinks that I've CHOSEN to be single. I'd rather be single than in a string of fruitless relationships.
    Ronnieaj wrote:

    Amen!! I was listening to the radio about Lil' Wayne and the THREE current women he's gotten pregnant, on top of the kids he has with his ex-wife. I wish a woman would try to pull that crap! Seriously, what man thinks that type of behavior is okay, and what woman would want to put up with that ish? That type of behavior crosses a very fundamental boundary for me.

    In his case, they probably see $$$ because I honestly don't see the appeal. But then again, the whole thugged out look has never been my thing anyway. I know....BAD assumption, but probably true. LOL!

    Also, I think you have to have good examples. My mother WAS married to my sister's dad, but he ended up being a druggie and putting my sister and her through hell. Which I'm sure had ALOT to do with my mom not marrying again. My father and mother didn't marry and I'm SO glad they didn't because they were/are like oil and water. And fortunately, my mother was/is a strong woman, and her being a single mother hasn't hurt me not ONE bit.
    Also, your "friends" statement doesn't explore whether women, black,white or otherwise, are mothers and not wives because they were never married, widowed, or divorced. There is not always one reason, even if only one is talked about. And as a family law attorney, I can confirm that marriage is not always the answer; I've seen more children who genuinely resent their parents for not divorcing sooner, than I care to count.
    THANK YOU! It's a blanket statement that doesn't explore the hows and whys of the situation!
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    "You see, when it comes to language competence, a true patriot must hit that sweet spot between "job-stealing immigrant" and "liberal elitist." ~Eilonwy

    Wanna have access to the top names in fashion and luxury at up to 70% off retail? Sure you do. http://tinyurl.com/3yxneol

    DC metro area
  • sobecurlsobecurl Posts: 313Registered Users
    I do believe this is true, and I think many things come into play. I think there has been a change in society to be more "accepting" of unmarried women having children. I also feel that in the black community, there is a fear of commitment possibly more from the men than from the women.

    The men want a woman to do everything a "wife" would do, but dont want to give the woman the commitment of marriage as some might argue a "man" should do. If we make demands or give ulimatums for commitment, we are seen as being difficult and it is used against us as to why we are NOT "wife" material. If we try to push them and make them a better person, we are not supporting who they really are. If we try to make ourselves better and acheive our personal goals, we are selling out.

    There is no sense of compromise because everyone wants it their way and without compromise you can never have a fully committed long term relationship. Though some may argue that marriage is only a piece fo paper, along with that paper comes responsibility legally, financially and practically. And even though divorce is all too common and in some states rather easy, there is still some sense of available freedom in being able to say "oh, that's my girl" versus, "that's my wife". It leaves you with the opportunity walk away at any moment and be able to justify leaving since she/he was only my girlfriend/boyfriend.

    When you add children to the mix, some may initially think that they have an eternal bond to the other parent, but how many times do we here of the "baby-momma drama" or baby-daddies that arent stepping up to the plate. And again, even though divorce is easy in our society, with divorce you have to go through a process and then there is the continuing responsibility through alimony and child support. When you're just dating, even with kids, if you wake up one morning and want to leave, you can and there is a lesser level of accountability once you do leave.


    I think Dana Gilmore captured it very well in her spoken word "Wife, woman, friend" on Def Poerty.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Ce9_N4IIU
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  • Hakim NuraldinHakim Nuraldin Posts: 1,467Registered Users
    sobecurl wrote: »
    I do believe this is true, and I think many things come into play. I think there has been a change in society to be more "accepting" of unmarried women having children. I also feel that in the black community, there is a fear of commitment possibly more from the men than from the women.

    The men want a woman to do everything a "wife" would do, but dont want to give the woman the commitment of marriage as some might argue a "man" should do. If we make demands or give ulimatums for commitment, we are seen as being difficult and it is used against us as to why we are NOT "wife" material. If we try to push them and make them a better person, we are not supporting who they really are. If we try to make ourselves better and acheive our personal goals, we are selling out.

    There is no sense of compromise because everyone wants it their way and without compromise you can never have a fully committed long term relationship. Though some may argue that marriage is only a piece fo paper, along with that paper comes responsibility legally, financially and practically. And even though divorce is all too common and in some states rather easy, there is still some sense of available freedom in being able to say "oh, that's my girl" versus, "that's my wife". It leaves you with the opportunity walk away at any moment and be able to justify leaving since she/he was only my girlfriend/boyfriend.

    When you add children to the mix, some may initially think that they have an eternal bond to the other parent, but how many times do we here of the "baby-momma drama" or baby-daddies that arent stepping up to the plate. And again, even though divorce is easy in our society, with divorce you have to go through a process and then there is the continuing responsibility through alimony and child support. When you're just dating, even with kids, if you wake up one morning and want to leave, you can and there is a lesser level of accountability once you do leave.


    I think Dana Gilmore captured it very well in her spoken word "Wife, womab, friend" on Def Poerty.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Ce9_N4IIU




    I really dug your response.
  • eccentric_kurlzeccentric_kurlz Posts: 4,151Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    sobecurl wrote: »
    I do believe this is true, and I think many things come into play. I think there has been a change in society to be more "accepting" of unmarried women having children. I also feel that in the black community, there is a fear of commitment possibly more from the men than from the women.

    The men want a woman to do everything a "wife" would do, but dont want to give the woman the commitment of marriage as some might argue a "man" should do. If we make demands or give ulimatums for commitment, we are seen as being difficult and it is used against us as to why we are NOT "wife" material. If we try to push them and make them a better person, we are not supporting who they really are. If we try to make ourselves better and acheive our personal goals, we are selling out.

    There is no sense of compromise because everyone wants it their way and without compromise you can never have a fully committed long term relationship. Though some may argue that marriage is only a piece fo paper, along with that paper comes responsibility legally, financially and practically. And even though divorce is all too common and in some states rather easy, there is still some sense of available freedom in being able to say "oh, that's my girl" versus, "that's my wife". It leaves you with the opportunity walk away at any moment and be able to justify leaving since she/he was only my girlfriend/boyfriend.

    When you add children to the mix, some may initially think that they have an eternal bond to the other parent, but how many times do we here of the "baby-momma drama" or baby-daddies that arent stepping up to the plate. And again, even though divorce is easy in our society, with divorce you have to go through a process and then there is the continuing responsibility through alimony and child support. When you're just dating, even with kids, if you wake up one morning and want to leave, you can and there is a lesser level of accountability once you do leave.


    I think Dana Gilmore captured it very well in her spoken word "Wife, womab, friend" on Def Poerty.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Ce9_N4IIU




    I really dug your response.

    ITA!
    A wonderful mix of coils, curls, corkscrews, and kinks.

    http://s211.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/shyygirl_2007/
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    I have a blog now. Follow meeeee! :)

    http://naturalurbanista.blogspot.com/

    "You see, when it comes to language competence, a true patriot must hit that sweet spot between "job-stealing immigrant" and "liberal elitist." ~Eilonwy

    Wanna have access to the top names in fashion and luxury at up to 70% off retail? Sure you do. http://tinyurl.com/3yxneol

    DC metro area
  • lashon20lashon20 Posts: 1,150Registered Users
    sobecurl wrote: »
    I do believe this is true, and I think many things come into play. I think there has been a change in society to be more "accepting" of unmarried women having children. I also feel that in the black community, there is a fear of commitment possibly more from the men than from the women.

    The men want a woman to do everything a "wife" would do, but dont want to give the woman the commitment of marriage as some might argue a "man" should do. If we make demands or give ulimatums for commitment, we are seen as being difficult and it is used against us as to why we are NOT "wife" material. If we try to push them and make them a better person, we are not supporting who they really are. If we try to make ourselves better and acheive our personal goals, we are selling out.

    There is no sense of compromise because everyone wants it their way and without compromise you can never have a fully committed long term relationship. Though some may argue that marriage is only a piece fo paper, along with that paper comes responsibility legally, financially and practically. And even though divorce is all too common and in some states rather easy, there is still some sense of available freedom in being able to say "oh, that's my girl" versus, "that's my wife". It leaves you with the opportunity walk away at any moment and be able to justify leaving since she/he was only my girlfriend/boyfriend.

    When you add children to the mix, some may initially think that they have an eternal bond to the other parent, but how many times do we here of the "baby-momma drama" or baby-daddies that arent stepping up to the plate. And again, even though divorce is easy in our society, with divorce you have to go through a process and then there is the continuing responsibility through alimony and child support. When you're just dating, even with kids, if you wake up one morning and want to leave, you can and there is a lesser level of accountability once you do leave.


    I think Dana Gilmore captured it very well in her spoken word "Wife, woman, friend" on Def Poerty.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Ce9_N4IIU


    I agree
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  • CoaCoaBean08CoaCoaBean08 Posts: 734Registered Users
    sobecurl wrote: »
    I do believe this is true, and I think many things come into play. I think there has been a change in society to be more "accepting" of unmarried women having children. I also feel that in the black community, there is a fear of commitment possibly more from the men than from the women.

    The men want a woman to do everything a "wife" would do, but dont want to give the woman the commitment of marriage as some might argue a "man" should do. If we make demands or give ulimatums for commitment, we are seen as being difficult and it is used against us as to why we are NOT "wife" material. If we try to push them and make them a better person, we are not supporting who they really are. If we try to make ourselves better and acheive our personal goals, we are selling out.

    There is no sense of compromise because everyone wants it their way and without compromise you can never have a fully committed long term relationship. Though some may argue that marriage is only a piece fo paper, along with that paper comes responsibility legally, financially and practically. And even though divorce is all too common and in some states rather easy, there is still some sense of available freedom in being able to say "oh, that's my girl" versus, "that's my wife". It leaves you with the opportunity walk away at any moment and be able to justify leaving since she/he was only my girlfriend/boyfriend.

    When you add children to the mix, some may initially think that they have an eternal bond to the other parent, but how many times do we here of the "baby-momma drama" or baby-daddies that arent stepping up to the plate. And again, even though divorce is easy in our society, with divorce you have to go through a process and then there is the continuing responsibility through alimony and child support. When you're just dating, even with kids, if you wake up one morning and want to leave, you can and there is a lesser level of accountability once you do leave.


    I think Dana Gilmore captured it very well in her spoken word "Wife, woman, friend" on Def Poerty.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p6Ce9_N4IIU

    I loved your answer! Very good points.

    Most people don't like what I have to say about this but here it goes...

    I am very young, 19 - too young to have kids or be married until like the next 10 or 15 years - but I have strong opinions on marriage. I look at the divorce rates and like you said all the compromise that comes with it and knowing me and what I want to do with my life I wonder if I will ever actually want to get married. I don't believe in marriage right now. I think having an a less binding alternative as far as the financial benefits for people who choose to live together and have children for a log time would be great. I think there might be something like this already in existence, but I am not sure. I would go for something like that offering the financial claims and benefits with weaker legal bonds and without the social expectations of marriage. I don't believe having children is a reason to get married. In fact, marriages based on the fact that you slipped up and had a child are the ones that I believe tend to end in resentment, distancing in emotion between partners, unhappiness, and divorce.

    In the black community I think men who focus more on the women who claim to be wives but not mothers are slightly delusional. Isn't the stat that 70% or so black households are lead but single black women? So wouldn't the issue be more of something along the lines of "Where the hell are the black men?"

    This is veering off topic slightly....

    That freedom is what I like most about non-married relationships. I guess a lot of it may come from how I observe the relationships in my family, specifically my mom and dad. They love each other but the relationship is no longer alive and revival is long gone - my mother is unhappy and my father is insecure. He was my mother's first and only boyfriend. They were in love once and they thought they could help each other get to a better state of living. They did and on the way I happened. I hate to say it but my mother does regret having me. She's like me - ambitious with so many plans and goals. However, she couldn't have an abortion. My point is having children changes your life forever, and contrary to what many people try to convince themselves to believe, not always for the better. Some women can just go with the flow and always be happy just knowing they have family around, but other types of women like my mother and I just feel like their lives are put on pause. They can't travel as much as they wanted to, do the things they wanted to, become who they wanted to. Sometimes marriage added to the equation can make one even more unhappy. My pessimistic view is that if you are not in the state of complete fulfillment and happiness, children and marriage can ruin everything.

    I don't believe most marriages are going to last forever, happily anyway. People change sometimes, and if the people change how on earth do you expect the relationship to last? Looking back on an aged marriage can be like looking at a stranger's picture or someone you knew back in high school - you don't recognize that person anymore or maybe you want to be them again. The part I really hate is that more often than not, marriage itself is the catalyst in changing people and rearranging their route in life.

    History in America has moved from a family oriented society decade after decade to the one we know now based on self preservation, self worth, satisfaction with self. Some prefer it the old way, but I much more prefer the new. I shouldn't have to plan my life around being married, having children, and meeting the traditional roles of what a married woman should be. I love being in relationships that aren't based on a piece of paper with a label or legally binding me to stay with that person. Love should be free and evolving. Break ups shouldn't come with some long, arduous task involving a lawyer and government papers.
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  • hippychichippychic Posts: 4,673Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    good points sobecurl :)

    Men can give every excuse in the book about how/why they aren't ready. I think its up to people to take what the SO is saying at face value rather than wasting years with a person that has no intention of marrying them and wishing upon a star.

    I used to carpool with a woman who stayed with a man for many, many years... waiting. She never had children because she wanted to be married. Well guess what...? He never married her. He married a much younger woman and had children with her. She was crushed. She talked about it in the morning commute and in the evening commute. I felt so sorry for her. :(
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  • hippychichippychic Posts: 4,673Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    It could also be said that too many men are Fathers and not Husbands. Why does the negative emphasis always have to be on the woman?
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  • ladycatladycat Posts: 56Registered Users
    I'm 23 and single and was asked if I had kids. I said no and that I was pretty much on the fence about it but leaning towards not wanting them (and if I do not until I'm married and better established than I am right now). One woman, who is around my age, told me I'd rethink that because she was just like me until she had an "oops". I felt insulted because she made A LOT of assumptions. Maybe I'm waiting until marriage (neither women bothered to ask if I was married btw), can't have children, or have a genetic disease I don't want to pass down. I did make the mention that I'd rather adopt and she didn't have a reply for that. But that too is once I'm married.

    Marriage is actually more than "love" for me. I am very practical about it. I'd maintain a long-term partnership if there are no children involved. I'd do marriage if we planned to have children. But either way, if the situation isn't right I am all about prevention and other methods. It's a personal choice to keep an accidental pregnancy. But I do know that I do not want to have kids, on purpose/by choice/by accident, if I'm not married-- for both practical and philosophical reasons.

    I actually have a friend who said if she isn't married by the time she's...like 30 or something, she is going to be a single mother. It's clear she places children before marriage but I can't do that. I think life would be much sweeter if said children were built around the love a husband and wife have for each other. But that's me :love1:
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  • ladycatladycat Posts: 56Registered Users
    hippychic wrote: »
    good points sobecurl :)

    Men can give every excuse in the book about how/why they aren't ready. I think its up to people to take what the SO is saying at face value rather than wasting years with a person that has no intention of marrying them and wishing upon a star.

    I used to carpool with a woman who stayed with a man for many, many years... waiting. She never had children because she wanted to be married. Well guess what...? He never married her. He married a much younger woman and had children with her. She was crushed. She talked about it in the morning commute and in the evening commute. I felt so sorry for her. :(

    That is sad indeed and a lesson learned. The friend I mentioned in my last post I told not to bother with guys who aren't interested in marriage/children up front. This I learned from women in loving marriages who knew what they wanted. And it makes perfect sense. I also learned something from older women whom didn't want children, which can be applied here. They were up front when they dated that they did not want kids (now or ever). It saved both the woman and her date the trouble and time of dating someone who didn't want the same things they wanted. Of course, you do have your slick people who will act like they want what you want and then do an about face--unfortunately.
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  • eccentric_kurlzeccentric_kurlz Posts: 4,151Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Excellent points, CoaCoaBean08. And at 19, you have a VERY healthy viewpoint. I'm 28, and I'm not even ready for marriage so I understand where you're coming from completely! I wish I was where you are at 19 when I was 19. Hell, when I was 21! It took me almost 10 years to get here.
    hippychic wrote: »
    It could also be said that too many men are Fathers and not Husbands. Why does the negative emphasis always have to be on the woman?

    That's one of the problems I have with lopsidedness of the argument from the guy who wrote the statement. And it has ALOT to do with the perceived roles and acceptance of gender assignments.

    Men seemingly can carry on certain behaviors w/o true backlash. It's the women who deal with the consequences, but ultimately it's the women who also have the power to change the outcome(s) as well.
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  • sobecurlsobecurl Posts: 313Registered Users
    hippychic wrote: »
    It could also be said that too many men are Fathers and not Husbands. Why does the negative emphasis always have to be on the woman?

    Well we can go back to biology on this one. That is one of the many reasons why men produce millions of sperm with one ejaculation, but women produce only one egg each month and only for a limited portion of her lifetime.

    Biologically men are "programmed" to spread as much of their genetic material as possible to increase the possibility of their genes making it to the next generation. With only one egg each month, women must be much more selective on who they choose as a partner, but unfortunately, not enough women practice this.

    And I dont know why the blame always falls on the women, but I do realize that most people would not want to look into the mirror and admit that they might be the one that is wrong.
    Over 10 years natural and still growing...
  • rosscdrosscd Posts: 464Registered Users
    ladycat wrote: »
    hippychic wrote: »
    good points sobecurl :)

    Men can give every excuse in the book about how/why they aren't ready. I think its up to people to take what the SO is saying at face value rather than wasting years with a person that has no intention of marrying them and wishing upon a star.

    I used to carpool with a woman who stayed with a man for many, many years... waiting. She never had children because she wanted to be married. Well guess what...? He never married her. He married a much younger woman and had children with her. She was crushed. She talked about it in the morning commute and in the evening commute. I felt so sorry for her. :(

    That is sad indeed and a lesson learned. The friend I mentioned in my last post I told not to bother with guys who aren't interested in marriage/children up front. This I learned from women in loving marriages who knew what they wanted. And it makes perfect sense. I also learned something from older women whom didn't want children, which can be applied here. They were up front when they dated that they did not want kids (now or ever). It saved both the woman and her date the trouble and time of dating someone who didn't want the same things they wanted. Of course, you do have your slick people who will act like they want what you want and then do an about face--unfortunately.
    Great point Ladycat. When I met my husband, he knew he wanted to be a husband. There was no convincing him that the concept was good for us. I always tell my friends that You cannot make a man be ready for marriage. You can wait for the man that values you and knows that what he wants in his life is a good wife. If he does not want that, you should not compromise what your dreams.
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  • Nicky791Nicky791 Posts: 679Registered Users
    I think its sad, but true.

    For a lot of women, this is the "only" thing that they can say that they have successfully done. They might not have gone to college, they might be working a deadd end job, they might not have a "man" and they might be living in paverty. But dayum it, I've got 2 kids and they are my pride and joy. :-|:-|:-|

    Not only that, I think that for black women all to often our "worth" is measured in how fertile our womb is. I'm 29, have 2 graduate degrees and am working on a PhD. The question I get asked more without a doubt is "Do I have kids"...or worse, people just assume that because I'm black and 29 that I MUST have at least 2-3 kids.:-|

    What's even sadder is that usually, other black women that have children (espically unmarried women) tend to look at me like I'm some kind of alien, because usually my response is "I dont have any children because I'm not married".

    its just an overall sad state of affairs. I have more to post but i need to gather my thoughts.


    I would have to agree with this comment.

    Too many times have I run into old high school peers who are pregnant or have children and the fathers are not present. Conversation seems to go nowhere with them because all they can talk about it is their children. They have no education after high school, no money, no aspirations of obtaining a rewarding job, nothing..... this saddens me.

    I'm actually on the other side of this spectrum, I have no plans to have children. First off, I still live with my parents so they definitly wouldn't go for that! I'm 24 and still going to college to get a 2nd Bachelors degree, I hardly have time for myself between work and school let alone children, or even dating. So when my high school peers hear that, they also look at me like I was insane. "You don't want to have children???!!!" "Nope, no thank you not for me" and then I get asked if i'm a lesbian. WTF? I never said I didn't like men, I just don't want children. I would love to get married to the right person, when/if I meet him. I just don't want to have children, a family is still a family with or without children. At least that's what I believe.

    My best friend on the other hand is the exact opposite. She actually just found out that she is about 7 weeks pregnant, from a man that she had been dating eclusively for the past year. Unfortunately, they had a falling out and are no longer together. But she had decided to keep her baby. To me she is one of the rare women who have a college degree, a rewarding job (she's a PA), steady healthy income, and a house to provide for her child. On top of that the father is also a PA and has plans to go to medical school to become an MD and has full intentions of being a part of this child's life. I support her 100%, I think she is making a sensible choice for herself. So not only can she say she is a happy mother , she can also say she is a home owner, a PA, and whatever else she'll accomplish.

    If this was the case with other single mom's then I wouldnt have a problem with the "mother" but not a "wife" thing, but unfortunately it's not. Too many women validate their worth based on how many children they can birth and it becomes an ugly cycle. Almost to the point where people from different cultures assume this is the norm for black people.

    I work for a company that is 99.9% Asian. I remember sometime last year my Ex-bf (BF at the time) made a surprise visit to join me for lunch and the receptionist called my phone to make sure I was at my desk before sending him to my cubicle. When I answered the phone she says "Nicole, your baby daddy is here".... i'm like "What???? My baby daddy?" Come to find out she thought that the term "baby daddy" was synomosis with "boyfriend" assuming since me and him have been dating for 6years and not married that we MUST have children. I have plenty of stories like that at work, but it's something that I can't be mad at. They don't know, all they are going by is what they see or hear in the media.

    Sorry this post is so long! I also apologize if I offended anyone
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  • Nappy_curly_crownNappy_curly_crown Posts: 4,162Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    ladycat wrote: »
    hippychic wrote: »
    good points sobecurl :)

    Men can give every excuse in the book about how/why they aren't ready. I think its up to people to take what the SO is saying at face value rather than wasting years with a person that has no intention of marrying them and wishing upon a star.

    I used to carpool with a woman who stayed with a man for many, many years... waiting. She never had children because she wanted to be married. Well guess what...? He never married her. He married a much younger woman and had children with her. She was crushed. She talked about it in the morning commute and in the evening commute. I felt so sorry for her. :(

    That is sad indeed and a lesson learned. The friend I mentioned in my last post I told not to bother with guys who aren't interested in marriage/children up front. This I learned from women in loving marriages who knew what they wanted. And it makes perfect sense. I also learned something from older women whom didn't want children, which can be applied here. They were up front when they dated that they did not want kids (now or ever). It saved both the woman and her date the trouble and time of dating someone who didn't want the same things they wanted. Of course, you do have your slick people who will act like they want what you want and then do an about face--unfortunately.

    Sadly, this has happened to a LOT of women. They stay with men 5+ years waiting, hoping and praying he will see how wonderful they are and marry them only to be replaced by a newer, younger, shiner model. Almost all my male friends are married and I've had this conversation with a lot of them. It all boils down to the fact that most men KNOW within the first year, if they plan on marrying you, and if they consider you marriage material.

    Honestly, after 1.5 years, if a dude hasn't mentioned marriage I'll bring it up, and depending on that conversation(s) I'll stay or I'm OUT. If after 3 years I havn't at LEAST been given a ring, I'm OUT. That's my max. I'm a big enough girl to admit that means he's not interested in marrying ME. I'm not for staying with a man and trying to "wear him down" to the point where he finally gives in and gives me a ring and wedding. Ain't no sense in my wasting my eggs on someone that's not interested in having what I want/need.

    Additionally, because I want marriage and then kids, I'm honest and up front with guys. I'll tell them point blank...I don't date just to date. I'm looking for a mate/partner/husband. If you have no desire to be married, kick rocks. Its no point in wasting my time or having my free time monopolized by someone that doesn't plan on eventually saying "I Do". Don't get me wrong, I'll hang out with a guy, go out and all that jazz even after we have had that conversation...but please believe they know that they are not a priority in my life. I refuse to put myself on hold like that.
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  • justicefighter1913justicefighter1913 Posts: 253Registered Users
    I think its sad, but true.

    For a lot of women, this is the "only" thing that they can say that they have successfully done. They might not have gone to college, they might be working a deadd end job, they might not have a "man" and they might be living in paverty. But dayum it, I've got 2 kids and they are my pride and joy. :-|:-|:-|

    Not only that, I think that for black women all to often our "worth" is measured in how fertile our womb is. I'm 29, have 2 graduate degrees and am working on a PhD. The question I get asked more without a doubt is "Do I have kids"...or worse, people just assume that because I'm black and 29 that I MUST have at least 2-3 kids.:-|

    What's even sadder is that usually, other black women that have children (espically unmarried women) tend to look at me like I'm some kind of alien, because usually my response is "I dont have any children because I'm not married".

    its just an overall sad state of affairs. I have more to post but i need to gather my thoughts.


    I hear you on this one. People always assume that I have kids. I just graduated from law school and have several degrees under my belt. When I respond that I don't I either get a "thank you Jesus" from some people, or the "side eye" from others...Whatevez!

    But back to the topic. I do think that it is a sad indictment on the state of society as a whole. I do think that there has been a complete break down of the traditional family structure. Yes, times have changed; and yes needs have changed. We (society) make our situations work and we adjust accordingly.

    I want to be a wife first, even before I even start thinking about being a mother. However, the guys that I've run into lately have no intentions/idea of being of a husband.
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  • sobecurlsobecurl Posts: 313Registered Users
    rosscd wrote: »
    ladycat wrote: »
    hippychic wrote: »
    good points sobecurl :)

    Men can give every excuse in the book about how/why they aren't ready. I think its up to people to take what the SO is saying at face value rather than wasting years with a person that has no intention of marrying them and wishing upon a star.

    I used to carpool with a woman who stayed with a man for many, many years... waiting. She never had children because she wanted to be married. Well guess what...? He never married her. He married a much younger woman and had children with her. She was crushed. She talked about it in the morning commute and in the evening commute. I felt so sorry for her. :(

    That is sad indeed and a lesson learned. The friend I mentioned in my last post I told not to bother with guys who aren't interested in marriage/children up front. This I learned from women in loving marriages who knew what they wanted. And it makes perfect sense. I also learned something from older women whom didn't want children, which can be applied here. They were up front when they dated that they did not want kids (now or ever). It saved both the woman and her date the trouble and time of dating someone who didn't want the same things they wanted. Of course, you do have your slick people who will act like they want what you want and then do an about face--unfortunately.
    Great point Ladycat. When I met my husband, he knew he wanted to be a husband. There was no convincing him that the concept was good for us. I always tell my friends that You cannot make a man be ready for marriage. You can wait for the man that values you and knows that what he wants in his life is a good wife. If he does not want that, you should not compromise what your dreams.

    Cheers to that one Rosscd!!

    My soon-to-be husband was the same way. He made sure I knew how committed he was to me and to us getting married. And of course he tickles my ego by saying the other guys were fools for not snatching me up and putting a ring on my finger.

    He always says that a man will do whatever it takes, including all of the cliches - crossing oceans and climbing mountains - to make sure the women he loves knows that he loves her and is committed to her.

    If a man has to think about it or make excuses....he's just not that into you.
    Over 10 years natural and still growing...
  • justicefighter1913justicefighter1913 Posts: 253Registered Users
    ladycat wrote: »
    hippychic wrote: »
    good points sobecurl :)

    Men can give every excuse in the book about how/why they aren't ready. I think its up to people to take what the SO is saying at face value rather than wasting years with a person that has no intention of marrying them and wishing upon a star.

    I used to carpool with a woman who stayed with a man for many, many years... waiting. She never had children because she wanted to be married. Well guess what...? He never married her. He married a much younger woman and had children with her. She was crushed. She talked about it in the morning commute and in the evening commute. I felt so sorry for her. :(

    That is sad indeed and a lesson learned. The friend I mentioned in my last post I told not to bother with guys who aren't interested in marriage/children up front. This I learned from women in loving marriages who knew what they wanted. And it makes perfect sense. I also learned something from older women whom didn't want children, which can be applied here. They were up front when they dated that they did not want kids (now or ever). It saved both the woman and her date the trouble and time of dating someone who didn't want the same things they wanted. Of course, you do have your slick people who will act like they want what you want and then do an about face--unfortunately.

    Sadly, this has happened to a LOT of women. They stay with men 5+ years waiting, hoping and praying he will see how wonderful they are and marry them only to be replaced by a newer, younger, shiner model. Almost all my male friends are married and I've had this conversation with a lot of them. It all boils down to the fact that most men KNOW within the first year, if they plan on marrying you, and if they consider you marriage material.

    Honestly, after 1.5 years, if a dude hasn't mentioned marriage I'll bring it up, and depending on that conversation(s) I'll stay or I'm OUT. If after 3 years I havn't at LEAST been given a ring, I'm OUT. That's my max. I'm a big enough girl to admit that means he's not interested in marrying ME. I'm not for staying with a man and trying to "wear him down" to the point where he finally gives in and gives me a ring and wedding. Ain't no sense in my wasting my eggs on someone that's not interested in having what I want/need.

    Additionally, because I want marriage and then kids, I'm honest and up front with guys. I'll tell them point blank...I don't date just to date. I'm looking for a mate/partner/husband. If you have no desire to be married, kick rocks. Its no point in wasting my time or having my free time monopolized by someone that doesn't plan on eventually saying "I Do". Don't get me wrong, I'll hang out with a guy, go out and all that jazz even after we have had that conversation...but please believe they know that they are not a priority in my life. I refuse to put myself on hold like that.


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  • hippychichippychic Posts: 4,673Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    @nicky791 :sign5: at the lesbian and baby daddy comments
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  • snappynappysnappynappy Posts: 1,262Registered Users
    :headbang:see...now i dont feel so bad!!! I feel like this board is filled with a good deal of like minded educated women who have the same train of thought as i do.

    :notworthy:


    I mean yeah if i were weak and wanted something to love i could pop out a kid or two...but i realize that it is much more important than that. I think it is a matter of having goals, aspirations...and for the love of God - STANDARDS. You dont pop out a kid with the first guy you meet, for all you know he could have some horrible disease..or be crazier than a dingbat. You have to have standards, be picky and willing to wait for someone who knows that rushing into it isnt best. I am so sick and tired of seeing broads on the street with 6 or 7 kids that dont look anything like each other and each has a different last name, its just a reflection of the mother trying to find love but instead finding and procreating with a loser.

    The men...dont get me started:pukeright:...ohh you just did,..

    Weak women attract weak men. There is a reason why some educated black women are increasingly dating outside of their race, if not giving up on men entirely...because they dont want to deal with soemone who isnt on their level. I for one am sick and tired of hearing "Black women are alone cuz they act all sidditty with their money. A janitor is good enough. So is the trash collector...She just to srong willed and needs to be brought down into her place... She is too bossy, thats why i deal with_______ girls."

    i was like...:pain10::tongue6::evil: :thumbdown:

    im sorry but I and the women on this board can find the time to get DEGREES (emphasis on the plural:notworthy:)...and pulling in darn near 6 figures....oh hell to the naw!!!

    There are 2 sides to this story...and the women are not completely at fault!!
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  • mariag002mariag002 Posts: 3,557Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I can't speak for everyone, but I know that being brought up in the 80's and trying to be an "independent woman" I thought it was ok to have children without being married. I'm now 38 and married and completely understand WHY its not ok. First of all, this makes life harder for us. We are the ones taking care of our children by ourselves with no help. So much for Women's Lib! There's no liberation there! LOL I was smart enough to go to college, work full time and take care of business, but wow it was 100000% harder than if I had waited. Plus I now understand that its hard for the children growing up this way.

    My DH and I don't have children together, but as a married couple we try to take care of each other's children. That's all well and good, but at the end of the day it still isn't the same. Its tough trying to put two families together. We always talk about how we wish we had met each other 20 years ago. I now just talk to my daughters and stepdaughters about the importance of waiting till marriage. I would hate for them to struggle like I did. I'm now going for my MBA and I'm back in school...overall I am very happy with my life. I would just tell the young women out there don't do it because its going to make your life harder. Wait for the right person that is WORTHY of you having a child with. You can have a career, be married and have a child if you play your cards right.
    - Maria

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  • justicefighter1913justicefighter1913 Posts: 253Registered Users
    mariag002 wrote: »
    I can't speak for everyone, but I know that being brought up in the 80's and trying to be an "independent woman" I thought it was ok to have children without being married. I'm now 38 and married and completely understand WHY its not ok. First of all, this makes life harder for us. We are the ones taking care of our children by ourselves with no help. So much for Women's Lib! There's no liberation there! LOL I was smart enough to go to college, work full time and take care of business, but wow it was 100000% harder than if I had waited. Plus I now understand that its hard for the children growing up this way.

    My DH and I don't have children together, but as a married couple we try to take care of each other's children. That's all well and good, but at the end of the day it still isn't the same. Its tough trying to put two families together. We always talk about how we wish we had met each other 20 years ago. I now just talk to my daughters and stepdaughters about the importance of waiting till marriage. I would hate for them to struggle like I did. I'm now going for my MBA and I'm back in school...overall I am very happy with my life. I would just tell the young women out there don't do it because its going to make your life harder. Wait for the right person that is WORTHY of you having a child with. You can have a career, be married and have a child if you play your cards right.


    Maria, thank you for sharing that piece of wisdom!

    Good luck in pursuing your MBA:study:
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