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Why do most black people have Nappy/Kinky/Coily Hair?

danrobin0313danrobin0313 Posts: 186Registered Users
I've always wondered what made the hair type and texture for people of African descent so different than other ethnic groups. Asians, Indians, Europeans, Middle Easterns etc all seem to have similar hair in that their hair is straight to loosely curled generally and has more shine than sheen despite it being coarse or fine.

I was under the assumption that the "original man" :faroah: was from Africa and in my mind would have had kinky hair??? So it only seems logical to me that there should be a lot more nappy heads around then I see now. I understand that it has something to do with the shape of the hair follicle but I was hoping to find out more about nappy hair being a genetic advantage or something along these lines...

Any thoughts or insight???

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Falling in love more and more each day with my natural hair :love4:

Current rotation: Shescentit anything, Qhemet Burdock Root Buttercream, Castor Oil, Olive Oil, Hairveda Whipped Jelly, Aussie Moist and Aussie Gels

Stats: Grazing APL, Dense, Medium Strands, 3c-4a curls
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Comments

  • RMichelleMRMichelleM Posts: 301Registered Users
    ah...re-read the question...and i still don't know lmao


    but black people are so cool.
    :blob7:fOtKi:blob7:



    i am officially the Kettle; call me Black. thanks.

    I'm better than people who think they are better than others; even though that's hypocritical in itself, im a better kind of hypocrite than others.:wave:
  • ninja dogninja dog Posts: 23,780Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    That's an interesting question. I wonder what evolution would tell us. Possibly the same thing as genetic science?

    There's got to be a reason for why different hair types evolved.

    I'm going to Google "evolution of hair type."
  • NubianCoilsNubianCoils Posts: 2,149Registered Users
    People predominately from Western Africa (not the entire continent of people have extra kinky hair - Eastern Africans like Ethiopians for example) have extra kinky hair as a defense mechanism against the sun. Same reason our skin is so dark.

    Darker skin has more melanin (sp. sorry) and more concentrated this is, the more protection you have against the sun. That's not to say you are immune, but if you are living in an extremely hot climate like West Africa, and you're living before sunscreen was invented, you have way more of an advantage if your skin contains high levels of melanin.

    Hair on the top of the head that coils and coils and is very dense and close to the scalp protects your scalp/head from the sun as well. So when you're out gathering food and water all day and/or hunting, the sun won't fry your brain. So the original man, because of where he was located, evolved to have extremely dark skin and extremely coily/kinky hair to protect him from the sun's exposure.

    Thousands of years ago, as people started to migrate and populate the world, they evolved or changed, just like any other animal, to adapt to their environment. Those who moved to much colder climates needed more vitamin D in their skin and did not require or need so much melanin so they paled. Their hair got less kinky so it could help warm them as it was easier for the hair to show length the straighter it is.

    If you look at the planet, you can pretty much see that people look the way they look in response to their environment. It's not perfect (because of other nations conquering other nations, producing different looking people than the original people that were there) because the adaption takes thousands of years, but that's why people look different in a nutshell. Once you know this it really makes racism look even more ridiculous.
    Defeated the Relaxer: January 2001 :boxing:
    Dreadlocks Since: March 2001
    Cut Dreadlocks: February 2009:afro:

    Holy Grails:
    Amla and Bhringraj are the TRUTH, HE LTR Conditioner is the BIDNESS, Shea butter, Honey, Jamican Black Castor Oil

    Full head of 4a hair!:wav:
  • hautecocoahautecocoa Posts: 258Registered Users
    People predominately from Western Africa (not the entire continent of people have extra kinky hair - Eastern Africans like Ethiopians for example) have extra kinky hair as a defense mechanism against the sun. Same reason our skin is so dark.

    Darker skin has more melanin (sp. sorry) and more concentrated this is, the more protection you have against the sun. That's not to say you are immune, but if you are living in an extremely hot climate like West Africa, and you're living before sunscreen was invented, you have way more of an advantage if your skin contains high levels of melanin.

    Hair on the top of the head that coils and coils and is very dense and close to the scalp protects your scalp/head from the sun as well. So when you're out gathering food and water all day and/or hunting, the sun won't fry your brain. So the original man, because of where he was located, evolved to have extremely dark skin and extremely coily/kinky hair to protect him from the sun's exposure.

    Thousands of years ago, as people started to migrate and populate the world, they evolved or changed, just like any other animal, to adapt to their environment. Those who moved to much colder climates needed more vitamin D in their skin and did not require or need so much melanin so they paled. Their hair got less kinky so it could help warm them as it was easier for the hair to show length the straighter it is.

    If you look at the planet, you can pretty much see that people look the way they look in response to their environment. It's not perfect (because of other nations conquering other nations, producing different looking people than the original people that were there) because the adaption takes thousands of years, but that's why people look different in a nutshell. Once you know this it really makes racism look even more ridiculous.

    You broke it down perfectly.
    "I'd love to kiss you, but I just washed my hair." Bette Davis, Cabin in the Cotton

    ~mix of 4a/b??
    ~my only staples are TJ Nourish (for cowash/detangling) & Lush henna (bc it's pre-mixed). everything else is still up in the air...
  • ninja dogninja dog Posts: 23,780Registered Users Curl Neophyte
  • NubianCoilsNubianCoils Posts: 2,149Registered Users
    hautecocoa wrote: »
    People predominately from Western Africa (not the entire continent of people have extra kinky hair - Eastern Africans like Ethiopians for example) have extra kinky hair as a defense mechanism against the sun. Same reason our skin is so dark.

    Darker skin has more melanin (sp. sorry) and more concentrated this is, the more protection you have against the sun. That's not to say you are immune, but if you are living in an extremely hot climate like West Africa, and you're living before sunscreen was invented, you have way more of an advantage if your skin contains high levels of melanin.

    Hair on the top of the head that coils and coils and is very dense and close to the scalp protects your scalp/head from the sun as well. So when you're out gathering food and water all day and/or hunting, the sun won't fry your brain. So the original man, because of where he was located, evolved to have extremely dark skin and extremely coily/kinky hair to protect him from the sun's exposure.

    Thousands of years ago, as people started to migrate and populate the world, they evolved or changed, just like any other animal, to adapt to their environment. Those who moved to much colder climates needed more vitamin D in their skin and did not require or need so much melanin so they paled. Their hair got less kinky so it could help warm them as it was easier for the hair to show length the straighter it is.

    If you look at the planet, you can pretty much see that people look the way they look in response to their environment. It's not perfect (because of other nations conquering other nations, producing different looking people than the original people that were there) because the adaption takes thousands of years, but that's why people look different in a nutshell. Once you know this it really makes racism look even more ridiculous.

    You broke it down perfectly.

    Thanks! It makes me happy when I can try to explain stuff like this. Take THAT mom!! She told me my history and racism classes in college were useless.:toothy10:
    Defeated the Relaxer: January 2001 :boxing:
    Dreadlocks Since: March 2001
    Cut Dreadlocks: February 2009:afro:

    Holy Grails:
    Amla and Bhringraj are the TRUTH, HE LTR Conditioner is the BIDNESS, Shea butter, Honey, Jamican Black Castor Oil

    Full head of 4a hair!:wav:
  • ninja dogninja dog Posts: 23,780Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    And some genetic info., as well (about which I've always wondered):

    From Wiki Answers:

    Hair-type doesn't follow the nice and simple pattern of inheritance. Hair-type follows a type of inheritance pattern known as "incomplete dominance". Like the earlobe gene, there are two versions of the hair-type gene, curly (noted as C) and straight (noted as s). The incomplete dominance refers to the fact that if you have one of each version of the gene, you get a mix of the two or, in this case, wavy hair. So for hair type, CC gives curly, Cs gives wavy and ss gives straight hair.
  • CurlLeeCurlLee Posts: 221Registered Users
    if u believe in science the answer is pretty simple, adaptation to very different climates over time.


    [didn't know that my post was so late. ITA with what was said above]
    3b here 4a there 3c everywhere
    talk about a mix up :toothy10:

    elevator doors open...

    random girl: ohhh, you have curly hair

    elevator doors begins to close...

    random girl's friend:i think he knows that already

    elevator doors close...
  • danrobin0313danrobin0313 Posts: 186Registered Users
    People predominately from Western Africa (not the entire continent of people have extra kinky hair - Eastern Africans like Ethiopians for example) have extra kinky hair as a defense mechanism against the sun. Same reason our skin is so dark.

    Darker skin has more melanin (sp. sorry) and more concentrated this is, the more protection you have against the sun. That's not to say you are immune, but if you are living in an extremely hot climate like West Africa, and you're living before sunscreen was invented, you have way more of an advantage if your skin contains high levels of melanin.

    Hair on the top of the head that coils and coils and is very dense and close to the scalp protects your scalp/head from the sun as well. So when you're out gathering food and water all day and/or hunting, the sun won't fry your brain. So the original man, because of where he was located, evolved to have extremely dark skin and extremely coily/kinky hair to protect him from the sun's exposure.

    Thousands of years ago, as people started to migrate and populate the world, they evolved or changed, just like any other animal, to adapt to their environment. Those who moved to much colder climates needed more vitamin D in their skin and did not require or need so much melanin so they paled. Their hair got less kinky so it could help warm them as it was easier for the hair to show length the straighter it is.

    If you look at the planet, you can pretty much see that people look the way they look in response to their environment. It's not perfect (because of other nations conquering other nations, producing different looking people than the original people that were there) because the adaption takes thousands of years, but that's why people look different in a nutshell. Once you know this it really makes racism look even more ridiculous.

    Wow.. thanks for the quick response! I thought that the climate had something to do with it but could not find this said so plainly anywhere else. And after I posted I thought that I should have said West Africa in specific so thanks for pointing that out.

    event.png


    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fmembers.fotki.com%2FGivemecurls%2F" class="Popup

    Falling in love more and more each day with my natural hair :love4:

    Current rotation: Shescentit anything, Qhemet Burdock Root Buttercream, Castor Oil, Olive Oil, Hairveda Whipped Jelly, Aussie Moist and Aussie Gels

    Stats: Grazing APL, Dense, Medium Strands, 3c-4a curls
  • NubianCoilsNubianCoils Posts: 2,149Registered Users
    People predominately from Western Africa (not the entire continent of people have extra kinky hair - Eastern Africans like Ethiopians for example) have extra kinky hair as a defense mechanism against the sun. Same reason our skin is so dark.

    Darker skin has more melanin (sp. sorry) and more concentrated this is, the more protection you have against the sun. That's not to say you are immune, but if you are living in an extremely hot climate like West Africa, and you're living before sunscreen was invented, you have way more of an advantage if your skin contains high levels of melanin.

    Hair on the top of the head that coils and coils and is very dense and close to the scalp protects your scalp/head from the sun as well. So when you're out gathering food and water all day and/or hunting, the sun won't fry your brain. So the original man, because of where he was located, evolved to have extremely dark skin and extremely coily/kinky hair to protect him from the sun's exposure.

    Thousands of years ago, as people started to migrate and populate the world, they evolved or changed, just like any other animal, to adapt to their environment. Those who moved to much colder climates needed more vitamin D in their skin and did not require or need so much melanin so they paled. Their hair got less kinky so it could help warm them as it was easier for the hair to show length the straighter it is.

    If you look at the planet, you can pretty much see that people look the way they look in response to their environment. It's not perfect (because of other nations conquering other nations, producing different looking people than the original people that were there) because the adaption takes thousands of years, but that's why people look different in a nutshell. Once you know this it really makes racism look even more ridiculous.

    Wow.. thanks for the quick response! I thought that the climate had something to do with it but could not find this said so plainly anywhere else. And after I posted I thought that I should have said West Africa in specific so thanks for pointing that out.

    Girl, I'm like an eager kid in school! As soon as I saw this post I was like Oh, Oh, pick me! Pick ME!! I know the answer!!!:goofy:
    Defeated the Relaxer: January 2001 :boxing:
    Dreadlocks Since: March 2001
    Cut Dreadlocks: February 2009:afro:

    Holy Grails:
    Amla and Bhringraj are the TRUTH, HE LTR Conditioner is the BIDNESS, Shea butter, Honey, Jamican Black Castor Oil

    Full head of 4a hair!:wav:
  • ninja dogninja dog Posts: 23,780Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    CurlLee wrote: »
    if u believe in science the answer is pretty simple, adaptation to very different climates over time.


    [didn't know that my post was so late. ITA with what was said above]

    Great hair, CurlLee!
  • CoaCoaBean08CoaCoaBean08 Posts: 734Registered Users
    People predominately from Western Africa (not the entire continent of people have extra kinky hair - Eastern Africans like Ethiopians for example) have extra kinky hair as a defense mechanism against the sun. Same reason our skin is so dark.

    Darker skin has more melanin (sp. sorry) and more concentrated this is, the more protection you have against the sun. That's not to say you are immune, but if you are living in an extremely hot climate like West Africa, and you're living before sunscreen was invented, you have way more of an advantage if your skin contains high levels of melanin.

    Hair on the top of the head that coils and coils and is very dense and close to the scalp protects your scalp/head from the sun as well. So when you're out gathering food and water all day and/or hunting, the sun won't fry your brain. So the original man, because of where he was located, evolved to have extremely dark skin and extremely coily/kinky hair to protect him from the sun's exposure.

    Thousands of years ago, as people started to migrate and populate the world, they evolved or changed, just like any other animal, to adapt to their environment. Those who moved to much colder climates needed more vitamin D in their skin and did not require or need so much melanin so they paled. Their hair got less kinky so it could help warm them as it was easier for the hair to show length the straighter it is.

    If you look at the planet, you can pretty much see that people look the way they look in response to their environment. It's not perfect (because of other nations conquering other nations, producing different looking people than the original people that were there) because the adaption takes thousands of years, but that's why people look different in a nutshell. Once you know this it really makes racism look even more ridiculous.

    truth. :thumbright:

    im just glad we are the way we are :love7:

    although sometimes i wish we lived in a society that praised our own natural beauty instead of everyone elses. ah well.
    head full of wild crazy kinks and curls :cool:
    "Make your choice adventurous stranger;
    Strike the bell and bide the danger.
    Or wonder, til it drives you mad,
    What would have followed if you had."

    "I've often thought the Bible should have a disclaimer in the front saying 'this is fiction.'" -Ian McKellen
  • The New BlackThe New Black Posts: 16,742Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    What abour India? It's hot there, but ppl have mostly straight hair there.
    montage-3.gif No MAS.

    I am the new Black.

    "Hope the Mail are saving space tomorrow for Samantha Brick's reaction piece on the reactions to her piece about the reactions to her piece." ~ Tweet reposted by Rou.
  • NubianCoilsNubianCoils Posts: 2,149Registered Users
    Phoenix wrote: »
    What abour India? It's hot there, but ppl have mostly straight hair there.

    Actually the majority of Indians have wavy and even curly hair. It's just the majority also straighten like African Americans relax so you wouldn't know it....But honestly, I've never been to India, but I have been to West Africa a few times and I just can't imagine ANYWHERE hotter. Like. I can't describe it. There were times I thought my head was on fire. Seriously. I would literally reach and feel the top of my head just to make sure.:shock: I know this is going to sound super corny, but once I piled my dreadlocks on top of my head, the feeling went away and the top my head actually felt a little cooler.:lol:

    And also, it's not a perfect science due to the fact that:
    1. It takes MANY years for an animal to adapt to their environment. It does not happen overnight.

    2. India has a history of conquering/being conquered by other ethnic groups that have changed the way a lot of them look. There are some Indians today that are extremely light with green eyes and straight hair...
    Defeated the Relaxer: January 2001 :boxing:
    Dreadlocks Since: March 2001
    Cut Dreadlocks: February 2009:afro:

    Holy Grails:
    Amla and Bhringraj are the TRUTH, HE LTR Conditioner is the BIDNESS, Shea butter, Honey, Jamican Black Castor Oil

    Full head of 4a hair!:wav:
  • springyheadspringyhead Posts: 350Registered Users
    Any place near the equator (many west african countries included) have extremely hot climate, with more direct sunlight. In fact, I think the southern hemisphere receives more sunlight than the northern.

    Anyway, I say this to say that I'm hesitant to buy the "it was so hot, and the hair protected them theory" because there are places in teh world that are just as hot, especially along the equator (Libya, Death Valley, CA, etc).

    Given that water seems to be a miracle ingredient for our hair, and I know, at least present day, water is sometimes a scarce resource in certain parts of Africa, I wonder if it was a scarcity of water that might have played a role....I have absolutely no scientific bearing for that statement, and am not familiar with Africa's geological past.

    Just thinking outside the box...
    4a, fine coils. low/med porosity. "It's springy. Like a slinky."--My Lil' Cousin

    I use products on 90% dry hair.
    Wash: Dr. Bronner's Peppermint Castille Soap.
    Conditioner: Tigi Bedhead Moisture Maniac/Suave Humectants
    Moisturizers: Long Aid
    Styler: Ecostyler Clear/ Vitamin E Oil
  • NubianCoilsNubianCoils Posts: 2,149Registered Users
    Any place near the equator (many west african countries included) have extremely hot climate, with more direct sunlight. In fact, I think the southern hemisphere receives more sunlight than the northern.

    Anyway, I say this to say that I'm hesitant to buy the "it was so hot, and the hair protected them theory" because there are places in teh world that are just as hot, especially along the equator (Libya, Death Valley, CA, etc).

    Given that water seems to be a miracle ingredient for our hair, and I know, at least present day, water is sometimes a scarce resource in certain parts of Africa, I wonder if it was a scarcity of water that might have played a role....I have absolutely no scientific bearing for that statement, and am not familiar with Africa's geological past.

    Just thinking outside the box...

    The reason why I buy into this theory is because we are talking about where the first people were. At the time there were people in Africa, places like present day California had not been populated yet. If everyone stayed where they were and people did not mix, about 10,000 years or so later, people in regions would begin to look the same.
    Also, before colonialism, West Africa was extremely rich with resources (water, gold, diamonds, soil for planting, fishing, etc.). The first people in West Africa ate well and looked great due to all their gold and diamonds. :lol:

    Also, it's been proven that the more melanin you have in your skin, the more protected you are from the sun (not immune like Superman, but more protected). We also all know that if you put a hat on, your head is more protected. It's logical to conclude that if you have something on your head already that is super thick and coily and close to your head, it acts like a hat.
    Defeated the Relaxer: January 2001 :boxing:
    Dreadlocks Since: March 2001
    Cut Dreadlocks: February 2009:afro:

    Holy Grails:
    Amla and Bhringraj are the TRUTH, HE LTR Conditioner is the BIDNESS, Shea butter, Honey, Jamican Black Castor Oil

    Full head of 4a hair!:wav:
  • Hakim NuraldinHakim Nuraldin Posts: 1,467Registered Users
    Any place near the equator (many west african countries included) have extremely hot climate, with more direct sunlight. In fact, I think the southern hemisphere receives more sunlight than the northern.

    Anyway, I say this to say that I'm hesitant to buy the "it was so hot, and the hair protected them theory" because there are places in teh world that are just as hot, especially along the equator (Libya, Death Valley, CA, etc).

    Given that water seems to be a miracle ingredient for our hair, and I know, at least present day, water is sometimes a scarce resource in certain parts of Africa, I wonder if it was a scarcity of water that might have played a role....I have absolutely no scientific bearing for that statement, and am not familiar with Africa's geological past.

    Just thinking outside the box...

    The reason why I buy into this theory is because we are talking about where the first people were. At the time there were people in Africa, places like present day California had not been populated yet. If everyone stayed where they were and people did not mix, about 10,000 years or so later, people in regions would begin to look the same.
    Also, before colonialism, West Africa was extremely rich with resources (water, gold, diamonds, soil for planting, fishing, etc.). The first people in West Africa ate well and looked great due to all their gold and diamonds. :lol:

    Also, it's been proven that the more melanin you have in your skin, the more protected you are from the sun (not immune like Superman, but more protected). We also all know that if you put a hat on, your head is more protected. It's logical to conclude that if you have something on your head already that is super thick and coily and close to your head, it acts like a hat.

    LOL! I know that's right, because in the summertime, my fro is like a hot @ss hat. It actually makes my head hotter though, which is why I'm using cornrows as a resort from the heat of the sun beating down on my thick hair. My scalp needs air. No afro-hat for me this summer.
  • springyheadspringyhead Posts: 350Registered Users

    The reason why I buy into this theory is because we are talking about where the first people were. At the time there were people in Africa, places like present day California had not been populated yet. If everyone stayed where they were and people did not mix, about 10,000 years or so later, people in regions would begin to look the same.

    Hey NubianCoils. I love these type of discussions, so forgive me beforehand for being verbose. About this statement. The oldest civilizations and bones are def found in Africa (East Africa, I believe) and both history, genetics, and archeology points to Africa being home to mankind. Got it. But if folks migrated from there years ago to uninhabited lands, who would they be "mixing" with? And if the migrants located to climates of similar temperature, what else about the climate would cause their hair to change from ribbonlike (the shape of our strands), flat, and tightly coiled, to more oval shaped, wavy/straight hair?
    Also, before colonialism, West Africa was extremely rich with resources (water, gold, diamonds, soil for planting, fishing, etc.). The first people in West Africa ate well and looked great due to all their gold and diamonds. :lol:
    Except from recent historical records, I have no idea how folks looked thousands of years ago. Plus, I know more about East Africa than west. But Africa definitely is resource rich, just don't know if abundance of water has been one of them. I'm not expressing doubt with that statement...I really just don't know!
    Also, it's been proven that the more melanin you have in your skin, the more protected you are from the sun (not immune like Superman, but more protected). We also all know that if you put a hat on, your head is more protected. It's logical to conclude that if you have something on your head already that is super thick and coily and close to your head, it acts like a hat.
    Yes, I get the melanin. And still, you'll find darker people in warmer climates. The hair, however, is still a mystery. Sometimes the hair is still tightly coiled and dry (like with some Indonesians) but most of the world seems to have lost that trait, regardless of temperature. Their actual hair structures have changed. So is there something else in the environment that caused this change?

    But I guess we can ask the same question about other ethnic features too. Why do some folks have thin lips? Why are some Asian's eyes more almond shaped? There are so many variables that play a part of any given trait (including sexual selection), that, once again, it's hard for me to believe it's just one reason (in this case, temperature).

    But i dunno. I tend to think too much:dontknow:
    4a, fine coils. low/med porosity. "It's springy. Like a slinky."--My Lil' Cousin

    I use products on 90% dry hair.
    Wash: Dr. Bronner's Peppermint Castille Soap.
    Conditioner: Tigi Bedhead Moisture Maniac/Suave Humectants
    Moisturizers: Long Aid
    Styler: Ecostyler Clear/ Vitamin E Oil
  • NubianCoilsNubianCoils Posts: 2,149Registered Users
    No problem, Springyhead! I suggest reading about environmental factors and how they effect animals (not just us). Just about every evoluntionary change in our appearance can be easily explained to adapting to our enviornment. People didn't just turn white or start to have straight hair for no reason. Even our nose and lip shapes are due to us adapting to our environment. I'm going to answer some of your questions while still attempting to not write a book:lol::

    But if folks migrated from there years ago to uninhabited lands, who would they be "mixing" with?

    To clarify let me give you an example: So Africans start to migrate and some decide they are going to head over to what is now the Dominican Republic. Over thousands of years, these Africans no long look like they did, they now have lighter skin (they don't need as much melanin) and there hair starts to get less coily. Remember, this is taking THOUSANDS of years. Ok, so now these people look completely different. Fast forward a few thousand years. Here comes colonization and slavery. And with it comes white and black people. In the end they all mix up and now the people of the Dominican Republic all look different and varied. But if you gave these people that are on the island right now thousands more years without any other people coming to the island, the enviornment would change them all right back to the appearance that best suits them to be able to survive. This applies to places all over the world. Take Egypt. The ancient Egyptians looked one way around 5000 BC but by 500 AD they looked completely different cause they had conquered people who assimilated into their country and THEY had been conquered by people who assimilated into their country...

    Except from recent historical records, I have no idea how folks looked thousands of years ago. Plus, I know more about East Africa than west. But Africa definitely is resource rich, just don't know if abundance of water has been one of them. I'm not expressing doubt with that statement...I really just don't know!

    I would first recommend books by Cheikh Anta Diop. Marvelous scientist who proved the statements I've made are true. His books are a wonderful read! I'm not trying to blow you off, I just don't want to make you read through what is already becoming a painfully long post. :lol: The sad thing is books like this at one point were banned or "out of print" because they painted black people in such a good light - first people to walk the earth, first to have a civilization, technically we're ALL black cause the African's migrated, etc. And honestly, you still kinda have to search for them but you can still find them. And yes, there was plenty of water supply in Africa. A lot of the problems that present day Africans face are directly linked to colonization.

    Yes, I get the melanin. And still, you'll find darker people in warmer climates. The hair, however, is still a mystery. Sometimes the hair is still tightly coiled and dry (like with some Indonesians) but most of the world seems to have lost that trait, regardless of temperature. Their actual hair structures have changed. So is there something else in the environment that caused this change?

    See, if you look at present day people, that's not a good example. There really hardly is a place in this day and age that another race has not moved to. Take South Africa. It ALREADY doesn't look the way it did just 400 years ago because of Europeans that have moved there and have mixed with the natives. Now you have people that are tan, red, etc. Thousands of years ago after the Africans migrated, they had thousands more years for their appearance to change in whatever environment they were in without hardly any interferance from another race of people.

    Hope this explains some stuff!!! And sorry it's so long. I really did try....

    PS - I encourage you to do your own reading on this if you are interested. I learned so much that made me so happy and proud to be who I am. I also had a period where I was SUPER PISSED that this is not common knowledge and taught in schools, but I got over it....
    Defeated the Relaxer: January 2001 :boxing:
    Dreadlocks Since: March 2001
    Cut Dreadlocks: February 2009:afro:

    Holy Grails:
    Amla and Bhringraj are the TRUTH, HE LTR Conditioner is the BIDNESS, Shea butter, Honey, Jamican Black Castor Oil

    Full head of 4a hair!:wav:
  • springyheadspringyhead Posts: 350Registered Users
    Hey NubianCoils,

    Thanks for the reply. Alright...I'm, digging in (won't be long I promise)
    No problem, Springyhead! I suggest reading about environmental factors and how they effect animals (not just us).

    I'm getting my masters in environmental science and ecology. The complexity of evolution is exactly why it's hard for me to believe conclusively that temperature (it was hot) is the only reason for our hair's structure alone for the facts I've already stated about the Earth's climate gradient. We migrated to places just as hot, even within the African continent, but the hair structures changed over time. More recently, ethnic mixing has played a huge factor in this. But in ancient past, it was climate and environment. I believe that. I just question whether it was just the temperature of the climate that was a defining factor. Out of all AFrica's climatic differences from one place to another, why do we say temperature is the reason behind our hair? No, it's not logical to me, which is why I question it. And I also feel that it's a slap in the face by archeologists and anthropologists to not consider other environmental variables, too.

    Fast forward a few thousand years. Here comes colonization and slavery. And with it comes white and black people. In the end they all mix up and now the people of the Dominican Republic all look different and varied.

    Another complexity about human evolution is migration and ethnic mixing, which is what you're talking about here. You're using a recent example, but migration and ethnic mixing has been going on for thousands of years. However, for physical traits to adapt to environments, isolation must occur at some point, as you illustrated with the Dominican Republic example. So in addition to trying to pend down the environmental variables that caused humans to change, we also have to take in consideration ethnic mixing and migration patterns. This complexity is ANOTHER reason why I don't easily buy into the temperature theory. .
    I would first recommend books by Cheikh Anta Diop.

    I'm familiar with his theories pertaining to East Africa and Ancient Egypt. But will definitely check him out further when I get the time.
    The sad thing is books like this at one point were banned or "out of print" because they painted black people in such a good light - first people to walk the earth, first to have a civilization, technically we're ALL black cause the African's migrated, etc.

    Banned or not, those sentiments are becoming more accepted even in the scientific community these days...the same community that told all types of ridiculous theories about African evolution less than a century ago.
    A lot of the problems that present day Africans face are directly linked to colonization.

    I'm aware of colonization's effect on Africa's economy, environment, and social structures (even though each country and region have very distinct differences and challenges). Even global warming is having an effect; developed countries are causing all the problems, and Africa is baring the brunt of global warming and climate change, even as I type this.
    PS - I encourage you to do your own reading on this if you are interested. I learned so much that made me so happy and proud to be who I am. I also had a period where I was SUPER PISSED that this is not common knowledge and taught in schools, but I got over it....


    I have done a lot of reading actually. And I personally don't believe everything I read. And when it comes to theories, I question them. That's how science and scientist get's closer to truth. The theories you mentioned are common theories in certain scientific communities. However, you're right. It's not common knowledge to most people in the world.
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  • NubianCoilsNubianCoils Posts: 2,149Registered Users
    Good Gawd!! I gotta tell you our posts are getting too long for my attention span, but I'll try:

    I don't think it's just as simple as temperature for the reasons why we look like we look. It's like I said - the environment. That includes tons of elements, not just temperature. If it sounded like I was harping on temperature, it was only cause I was and am trying to keep things as simple as possible. The more simple the post, the shorter. :lol:

    Another complexity about human evolution is migration and ethnic mixing, which is what you're talking about here. You're using a recent example, but migration and ethnic mixing has been going on for thousands of years.

    Yep, I did use a more recent example hoping that more people could relate, but I also used the ancient Egyptians as an example as well...my whole point is everything I'm saying happened soooooooo long ago. And it would take sooooooo long for our appearances to change again to suit our environment without the introduction of another race or different looking people.

    I would also like to say:
    Sorry if I read your post wrong or am reading too much into it, but I got the feeling that I might have somehow offended you a little. The facts that I stated weren't to imply that I assumed you didn't know or you should go read a book. :jocolor: I was just trying to answer the best way I could any questions that you had with the knowledge that I have. The only reason I suggested reading is cause while I love talking about this, I'm too lazy to keep writing long posts that would actually better explain the questions you asked me. Also, there are real scientists who've written books on this topic that can explain the questions you were asking me way better than I could. It was no reflection on you at all. Congratulations on your master's degree!!
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  • QVCDivaQVCDiva Posts: 1,329Registered Users
    Phoenix wrote: »
    What abour India? It's hot there, but ppl have mostly straight hair there.

    People from India are actually considered Caucasian as it was originally definied (recently learned this after all my years of being taught they were asian). Here Caucasion means people of the Caucasus mountains.

    Better explained from Wikipedia

    The term Caucasian race (also Caucasoid or Europid) has been used to denote the general physical type of some or all of the indigenous populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, West Asia, Central Asia and South Asia.[1] Historically, the term has been used to describe the entire population of these regions, without regard necessarily to skin tone. In common use, the term is sometimes restricted to Europeans and other lighter-skinned populations within these areas, and may be considered equivalent to the varying definitions of white people.[2]
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  • QVCDivaQVCDiva Posts: 1,329Registered Users
    No problem, Springyhead! I suggest reading about environmental factors and how they effect animals (not just us). Just about every evoluntionary change in our appearance can be easily explained to adapting to our enviornment. People didn't just turn white or start to have straight hair for no reason. Even our nose and lip shapes are due to us adapting to our environment. I'm going to answer some of your questions while still attempting to not write a book:lol::

    But if folks migrated from there years ago to uninhabited lands, who would they be "mixing" with?

    To clarify let me give you an example: So Africans start to migrate and some decide they are going to head over to what is now the Dominican Republic. Over thousands of years, these Africans no long look like they did, they now have lighter skin (they don't need as much melanin) and there hair starts to get less coily. Remember, this is taking THOUSANDS of years. Ok, so now these people look completely different. Fast forward a few thousand years. Here comes colonization and slavery. And with it comes white and black people. In the end they all mix up and now the people of the Dominican Republic all look different and varied. But if you gave these people that are on the island right now thousands more years without any other people coming to the island, the enviornment would change them all right back to the appearance that best suits them to be able to survive. This applies to places all over the world. Take Egypt. The ancient Egyptians looked one way around 5000 BC but by 500 AD they looked completely different cause they had conquered people who assimilated into their country and THEY had been conquered by people who assimilated into their country...

    Except from recent historical records, I have no idea how folks looked thousands of years ago. Plus, I know more about East Africa than west. But Africa definitely is resource rich, just don't know if abundance of water has been one of them. I'm not expressing doubt with that statement...I really just don't know!

    I would first recommend books by Cheikh Anta Diop. Marvelous scientist who proved the statements I've made are true. His books are a wonderful read! I'm not trying to blow you off, I just don't want to make you read through what is already becoming a painfully long post. :lol: The sad thing is books like this at one point were banned or "out of print" because they painted black people in such a good light - first people to walk the earth, first to have a civilization, technically we're ALL black cause the African's migrated, etc. And honestly, you still kinda have to search for them but you can still find them. And yes, there was plenty of water supply in Africa. A lot of the problems that present day Africans face are directly linked to colonization.

    Yes, I get the melanin. And still, you'll find darker people in warmer climates. The hair, however, is still a mystery. Sometimes the hair is still tightly coiled and dry (like with some Indonesians) but most of the world seems to have lost that trait, regardless of temperature. Their actual hair structures have changed. So is there something else in the environment that caused this change?

    See, if you look at present day people, that's not a good example. There really hardly is a place in this day and age that another race has not moved to. Take South Africa. It ALREADY doesn't look the way it did just 400 years ago because of Europeans that have moved there and have mixed with the natives. Now you have people that are tan, red, etc. Thousands of years ago after the Africans migrated, they had thousands more years for their appearance to change in whatever environment they were in without hardly any interferance from another race of people.

    Hope this explains some stuff!!! And sorry it's so long. I really did try....

    PS - I encourage you to do your own reading on this if you are interested. I learned so much that made me so happy and proud to be who I am. I also had a period where I was SUPER PISSED that this is not common knowledge and taught in schools, but I got over it....

    Nubian, once again great explanations.

    You have to remember it was around 100,00 years ago that a single group of humans begind diving and migrating to form genetically isolated populations.

    Some of the first people that migrated out of Africa migrated to Eurasia, modern day India, and some after awhile eventually to Australia. I imagine that the people were still in a hot of enough region where they still required some melain in the skin but just far enough north where they didn't need totally thick coiled hair.
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  • NubianCoilsNubianCoils Posts: 2,149Registered Users
    Why thank you QVCDiva!!! :santa: And you're right. We have to keep in mind that what I'm talking about is LITERALLY the beginning of human migration. Back when the first ones started to leave Africa. From then until now, those people had well over 100,000 years to adapt to their environment to produce all the different looking people we see today. We are all African. And racism is stupid. :happy6:
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  • cammiecamcammiecam Posts: 122Registered Users
    Recommend reading please NubianCoils.. I'm taking notes and I LOVE to read about things like this. I had an AA studies minor in undergrad but my classes were limited because it was my minor NOT my major. I need some reading to occupy my mind this summer before graduate classes start back up again in the fall. This thread was/is a great read!
  • EkuaSoulEkuaSoul Posts: 870Registered Users
    Interesting discussion. I just have issue with one point. I'm pretty sure that Dr. Diop said that there were already 5 different phenotypes that existed in Africa BEFORE any migrations took place. (I have a YouTube video of his actual interview downloaded on my computer.) Two died out before leaving. Two left Africa. One remained. His research says that the two that left did so because their genetic make-up was such that they could not handle their current environment.

    The three groups all developed in their respective areas for thousands of years, and THEN there are the additional migrations/explorations/colonizations/enslavements that take place over various points over thousands of years where the mixing continues. (I'm summarizing for sake of brevity)

    Migration is different from exploration. Migration is connected with reasons related to survival, such as resource scarity, environmental dangers, overcrowding/population growth, land is already populated, or conflict with another group. Otherwise, there isn't a need to leave where you are. If survival is not involved, then you are exploring and in those instances of exploration, only a small group explores and there would still be signs of their group from wherever they originated from. Even nomadic peoples leave sign that they were somewhere at some point.
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  • snappynappysnappynappy Posts: 1,262Registered Users
    i think it honestly depends on how you see the words and how it is "worded".

    Are nappy, kinky coily strands bad?
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  • EkuaSoulEkuaSoul Posts: 870Registered Users
    QVCDiva wrote: »
    Phoenix wrote: »
    What abour India? It's hot there, but ppl have mostly straight hair there.

    People from India are actually considered Caucasian as it was originally definied (recently learned this after all my years of being taught they were asian). Here Caucasion means people of the Caucasus mountains.

    Better explained from Wikipedia

    The term Caucasian race (also Caucasoid or Europid) has been used to denote the general physical type of some or all of the indigenous populations of Europe, North Africa, the Horn of Africa, West Asia, Central Asia and South Asia.[1] Historically, the term has been used to describe the entire population of these regions, without regard necessarily to skin tone. In common use, the term is sometimes restricted to Europeans and other lighter-skinned populations within these areas, and may be considered equivalent to the varying definitions of white people.[2]

    I never trust Wiki entires when it comes to things like this. Race is a construct of racists and an effort for the minority population of this world (those who classify themselves as white, essentially Caucasians) to make their group look larger then they really are from a global view.

    Runoko Rashidi's African Presence in Early Asia shows that the group known as the Dravidians who still inhabit India now are African in origin, not just by skin color, but also by language, customs, religion, and history. There are the Aryans - who can be classified as white - who came to dominate in India. But there have been a few thousand years of that intermingling that takes place where you now see straight-haired dark-skinned Indians as well as curly haired light-skinned Indians.

    Still, to this day in India, there is division between the two basic groups.
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  • EkuaSoulEkuaSoul Posts: 870Registered Users

    Are nappy, kinky coily strands bad?

    Of course not.
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  • DeaDea Posts: 61Registered Users
    On why other groups have straight hair...

    I read on Wikipedia that straight hair is pervasive throughout most mammal species. Think about it... other than poodles, alpaca/llama and sheep are there really other mammals with curly hair? (oh yeah and Portuguese water dogs)

    While modern humans were evolving hair changed from straight to kinky/coily/nappy for reasons already stated in this thread (survival). After leaving the mystical land of Africa, the change in climate combined with the straight hair tendency of mammals might have caused the reversion back to straight hair. I suppose that anyone after the Europeans might have ended up being affected by that.

    I recall reading an Associated Press report on early Europeans mating with Cro Magnons. The theorist was claiming that the Cro Mags were cause of humans advanced intelligence or cognitive skill or something about why homo sapiens are so smart (right and those Africans who stayed in Africa are...side-eyed!). Maybe they gave homo sapiens straight hair genes...
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