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"It goes both ways"

iaraiara Posts: 1,199Registered Users
Someone's post remind me of that expression and its cousin "it is a two-way street." People usually say it when they do not want to own up that their "side" does vile things. I only hear it when people talk about politics or an "ism." In conversations about politics it is usually in defense of something vile their party did, "well, the mud-slinging goes both ways." Or when talking about racism, "well, hate goes both ways." Why can't people just own up that a group did something wrong? Why drag in something the victim did in retaliation and put it on the same level?

I hate that expression when it refers to the above. Don't mind it for the other way.
You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks

Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21

Comments

  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    If they're not just condoning bad behavior, a lot of people subscribe to the just world hypothesis. That is, they believe that bad things don't happen to people out of the blue. The victim must have done something to provoke the attack. This also leads victims to blame themselves.
  • iaraiara Posts: 1,199Registered Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    If they're not just condoning bad behavior, a lot of people subscribe to the just world hypothesis. That is, they believe that bad things don't happen to people out of the blue. The victim must have done something to provoke the attack. This also leads victims to blame themselves.
    I only hear it when people are defending bad behavior of one group against another group. Have not heard it in any other context.
    You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

    People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks

    Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    ^^^ Well, it's also frequently done in the context of rape, for instance. "She must have been walking home alone," etc.
  • iaraiara Posts: 1,199Registered Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    ^^^ Well, it's also frequently done in the context of rape, for instance. "She must have been walking home alone," etc.
    The exact expression, "it goes both ways" or "blank is a two way street" used in the context of rape? What I am talking about is different from the usual "blame the victim" excuses; it is not used against individuals, only groups.
    You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

    People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks

    Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21
  • slinky1slinky1 Banned Posts: 1,612Banned Users
    Bad things do happen to people out of the blue. That's WHY one must know to be on guard. However, that, as well as going to church, will not prevent bad things from happening to us. All of this, though, is common knowledge (you would think).

    Your presuppositions from the lectures that you've heard in college are still getting in the way of understanding things. This is why I think we should stop encouraging every Dick, Tom, and Harry to go to college. There is too much brainwashing, and people are losing their common sense, as well as their sense of personal responsibility. Everyone is a "victim". This is a significant reason why our country is now swirling the toilet. Only people who are intelligent enough to have a subjective mind should go.
    ;)
  • iaraiara Posts: 1,199Registered Users
    slinky1 wrote: »
    Bad things do happen to people out of the blue. That's WHY one must know to be on guard. However, that, as well as going to church, will not prevent bad things from happening to us. All of this, though, is common knowledge (you would think).

    Your presuppositions from the lectures that you've heard in college are still getting in the way of understanding things. This is why I think we should stop encouraging every Dick, Tom, and Harry to go to college. There is too much brainwashing, and people are losing their common sense, as well as their sense of personal responsibility. This is a significant reason why our country is now swirling the toilet. Only people who are intelligent enough to have a subjective mind should go.
    How is this related to the thread's topic?
    You cannot invite someone to your house in the Hamptons and when she arrives, not let her stay. Tacky. Very Tacky. ~ East Village hipster.

    People in Ward Three disdain three things: cleavage, hunting and dumb people who are richer than they are. ~ David Brooks

    Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it. ~Armaments 2:9-21
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    slinky1 wrote: »
    Your presuppositions from the lectures that you've heard in college are still getting in the way of understanding things.

    1) This is not something that I've heard in a lecture in college :roll: You don't need to go to college to know that "dressing like a whore" (as you put it) is not the cause of rape.

    2) Seriously, why do you show up when I post the word "rape"? It was weird enough in the other thread.
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    iara wrote: »
    How is this related to the thread's topic?

    She's upset about another thread. If anyone wants that thread to continue, I think it would be best if they just bumped the old one instead of bringing an argument to iara's thread.
  • slinky1slinky1 Banned Posts: 1,612Banned Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    slinky1 wrote: »
    Your presuppositions from the lectures that you've heard in college are still getting in the way of understanding things.

    1) This is not something that I've heard in a lecture in college :roll:

    2) Seriously, why do you show up when I post the word "rape"? It was weird enough in the other thread.

    Some people get a little too obsessed with psychological/sociological issues, and it worries me. Your worldview shouldn't be shaped by these things. Let yourself experience life, and come to your own conclusions. When you get older, you'll get it (hopefully).
    ;)
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    ^^^ Please stop bringing this topic to other threads. I don't want to continue this conversation, especially since you're putting words in my mouth. I said in the other thread that, while women should be advised not to behave recklessly, they're often given advice that is not actually helpful. On the other hand, men's role in preventing rape is too often downplayed or ignored.

    It's unfair to other posters to bring old drama to new threads.

    Iara, I'm really sorry about replying to this. But I'd just like to see it finally stop.

    Slinky1, go ahead and PM me if you want to.


    (edited for clarity--I realized I used ambiguous phrasing.)
  • slinky1slinky1 Banned Posts: 1,612Banned Users
    slinky1 wrote: »
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    slinky1 wrote: »
    Your presuppositions from the lectures that you've heard in college are still getting in the way of understanding things.

    1) This is not something that I've heard in a lecture in college :roll:

    2) Seriously, why do you show up when I post the word "rape"? It was weird enough in the other thread.

    Some people get a little too obsessed with psychological/sociological issues, and it worries me. Your worldview shouldn't be shaped by these things. Let yourself experience life, and come to your own conclusions. When you get older, you'll get it (hopefully).

    I'm not upset by the thread, I'm concerned about the way a lot of people think. I don't like they way our country is being run, and I don't like what I hear on the news every day...All of what I believe is wrong is perpetuated by people like you. I can't change you, and it is frustrating.
    ;)
  • cymprenicympreni Posts: 9,609Registered Users
    slinky1 wrote: »
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    slinky1 wrote: »
    Your presuppositions from the lectures that you've heard in college are still getting in the way of understanding things.

    1) This is not something that I've heard in a lecture in college :roll:

    2) Seriously, why do you show up when I post the word "rape"? It was weird enough in the other thread.

    Some people get a little too obsessed with psychological/sociological issues, and it worries me. Your worldview shouldn't be shaped by these things. Let yourself experience life, and come to your own conclusions. When you get older, you'll get it (hopefully).

    And you would know if someone's views weren't based upon life experiences how?
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    It bears repeating:
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Slinky1, go ahead and PM me if you want to.
  • SystemSystem Posts: 39,059 Administrator
    Yes, slinky1, please continue the discussion (if you must) outside of this thread, since it's clearly related to an entirely different thread.
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    iara wrote: »
    What I am talking about is different from the usual "blame the victim" excuses; it is not used against individuals, only groups.

    I guess I misunderstood what you meant.

    I really hope that the brief derail doesn't discourage others from posting. I'm sorry if I prolonged it at all.
  • BoomygrrlBoomygrrl Posts: 4,940Registered Users
    Well, used in the concept of condoning bad behavior, I agree that's not good.
    However, it can also be used to defend oneself in a rightful matter. Like when my brother, who rarely calls me, complains that i don't call him often enough (although I call him more often than he calls me), I tell him "it goes both ways," meaning that he can call me sometimes too.
    Really, I don't like my brother and I feel like I've been overly nice to him in the past even though he's been a jerk to me...so the fact that I sometimes call him is really my way of compromise. i don't want to disown him, but I really don't want to talk to him much. The fact that he claims to want to talk more and accuses me of not calling him much...well, really, he just doesn't want much communication either but wants to put all the blame on me, so he can look good. So when I phrase it "it goes both ways." I am not saying I'm not at fault...but that I'm not exclusively at fault, because he's actually more at fault, even though I'm nice enough to not say that.

    Makes sense?

    But yeah, in the context that the OP is talking about, I hate when people say that. Sure men are discriminated against; sure white people are discriminated against...but not to the extent that women and minorities are discriminated against...and individual discrimination is nothing like the institutional discrimination that happens. Yeah, nobody's life is perfect and bad things happen even to people who belong to a group that doesn't normally get discriminated against, but that still doesn't negate that real sexism and racism happens. So, "It goes both ways" is a way to minimize that.
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  • hotmustang46gthotmustang46gt Posts: 95Registered Users
    I'm sorry if some took it that way. It certainly wasn't what was meant by that phrase. I know that one race is more discriminated against than others. I also followed that with several statements about the hideous acts of racism that I have seen in the South against BOTH races. I am not condoning any of it by anyone.
    3b/3c very thick and porous mod-CG since 03/09



  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    This is some kind of post-modern meta-thread. Intertextuality and reference abound.
  • CurlyminxCurlyminx Posts: 5,581Registered Users
    I have been following this thread.

    I have to say that I am officially LOST!

    What the crap are all of you talking about?

    The one person I did understand of the last few posts is Boomygirl. And I agree with what she said. In both terms of with groups in general and in terms of interpersonal relationships.
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  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    nm