Obama sells out already?

2

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  • wild~hairwild~hair Posts: 9,890Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    JElsea wrote: »
    If you want to keep religion out of government, then the first thing you don't do is vote for someone who professes to be religious. You can't have it both ways. You can't vote a professed Christian into office and then complain that he's bringing religion into your government.

    Yes! Can I get an amen?


    I'm with NetG on this one. The endless kvetching from atheists [I used to be one, so I know of which I speak] is just as bad as the worst fundie, imo.
  • misspammisspam Posts: 5,318Registered Users
    wild~hair wrote: »
    JElsea wrote: »
    If you want to keep religion out of government, then the first thing you don't do is vote for someone who professes to be religious. You can't have it both ways. You can't vote a professed Christian into office and then complain that he's bringing religion into your government.

    Yes! Can I get an amen?


    I'm with NetG on this one. The endless kvetching from atheists [I used to be one, so I know of which I speak] is just as bad as the worst fundie, imo.

    Amen to you. If I could hug the both of you right now, I would!
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  • DEL2CDEL2C Posts: 6,418Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    misspam wrote: »
    wild~hair wrote: »
    JElsea wrote: »
    If you want to keep religion out of government, then the first thing you don't do is vote for someone who professes to be religious. You can't have it both ways. You can't vote a professed Christian into office and then complain that he's bringing religion into your government.

    Yes! Can I get an amen?


    I'm with NetG on this one. The endless kvetching from atheists [I used to be one, so I know of which I speak] is just as bad as the worst fundie, imo.

    Amen to you. If I could hug the both of you right now, I would!
    another AMEN here!!!!!!!
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  • TillyMunchyWavesTillyMunchyWaves Posts: 671Registered Users
    I think you can have it both ways.

    You can be religious-whatever that religion may be-and not have it be a feature of your governing style. What you do on Saturday or Sunday or every night/day of the week doesn't neccessarily have to be interjected with what one does at work...

    ETA--

    Beyone the obvious, like your life being a walk with God or Jesus...doens't mean you have to push it on everyone else.
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  • Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
    What you do on Saturday or Sunday or every night/day of the week doesn't neccessarily have to be interjected with what one does at work...

    ETA--

    Beyone the obvious, like your life being a walk with God or Jesus...doens't mean you have to push it on everyone else.

    I agree that I don't have to push my faith on others. I make every not to and apologize if - when- I do. But it is beyond me how my faith can't be interjected with what I do at work. Last semester, I was so angry at a student and graded her paper harshly. When I got to a student who I didn't know well, she made the same mistakes but I didn't grade her down as much. When I realized I had done that, I stopped and prayed that my anger with student #1 not be reflected like it had been. I went back and changed her grade to reflect that of the other student. I didn't do it because the University told me to; I did it because the Holy Spirit told me to. My relationship with Christ doesn't have a timeclock so I can't punch in and out. Obama professes faith in Jesus as his Savior. Why wouldn't he want the Lord's presence invoked (in a formal, public way)?
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    JElsea wrote: »
    That should be done in private. Keep your religion out of my gov't.

    If you want to keep religion out of government, then the first thing you don't do is vote for someone who professes to be religious. You can't have it both ways. You can't vote a professed Christian into office and then complain that he's bringing religion into your government.


    Unfortunately, at this point, there is no way an atheist can hold public office in the USA. They are mostly christian, or pretend-christian, with a few scattered jews. Atheism isn't acceptable...yet...
  • fraufrau Posts: 6,130Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    redcatwaves called obama a sellout and got away with it. progress and change, lol.
  • journotravelerjournotraveler Posts: 2,816Registered Users
    JElsea wrote: »
    That should be done in private. Keep your religion out of my gov't.

    If you want to keep religion out of government, then the first thing you don't do is vote for someone who professes to be religious. You can't have it both ways. You can't vote a professed Christian into office and then complain that he's bringing religion into your government.


    Unfortunately, at this point, there is no way an atheist can hold public office in the USA. They are mostly christian, or pretend-christian, with a few scattered jews. Atheism isn't acceptable
    ...yet...

    i agree with this. i'm not an atheist. but i am dismayed by how politicians have to trot out their religion bonafides in order to get elected. to me, one's religious/spiritual beliefs--or the lack thereof--really shouldn't be a part of the electoral process.
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  • tctc Posts: 986Registered Users
    I'm withholding judgment until I hear the actual speech. Maybe Rick Warren won't even mention his anti-gay/anti-choice leanings.
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    tmmy_cat wrote: »
    I'm withholding judgment until I hear the actual speech. Maybe Rick Warren won't even mention his anti-gay/anti-choice leanings.



    It doesn't matter what he says in his speech. The fact remains that he has likened gay relationships to incest, pedophilia, and bestiality in his previous statements. He's a hate-mongering bigot. And hate-mongering bigots shouldn't be honored at Obama's inauguration ceremony.
  • legendslegends Posts: 3,073Registered Users
    Myradella3 wrote: »
    What you do on Saturday or Sunday or every night/day of the week doesn't neccessarily have to be interjected with what one does at work...

    ETA--

    Beyone the obvious, like your life being a walk with God or Jesus...doens't mean you have to push it on everyone else.

    I agree that I don't have to push my faith on others. I make every not to and apologize if - when- I do. But it is beyond me how my faith can't be interjected with what I do at work. Last semester, I was so angry at a student and graded her paper harshly. When I got to a student who I didn't know well, she made the same mistakes but I didn't grade her down as much. When I realized I had done that, I stopped and prayed that my anger with student #1 not be reflected like it had been. I went back and changed her grade to reflect that of the other student. I didn't do it because the University told me to; I did it because the Holy Spirit told me to. My relationship with Christ doesn't have a timeclock so I can't punch in and out. Obama professes faith in Jesus as his Savior. Why wouldn't he want the Lord's presence invoked (in a formal, public way)?
    Wow. So instead of using common sense, ethics, and a plain old sense of fairness, you needed the "holy spirit" to guide you? Either you're saying that it's impossible for non-believers to do the right thing because they don't have some magical spirit telling them what to do, or you're saying that you possess no ethics or critical thinking skills of your own and you need some kind of authority figure to keep you in line at all times. Either way, that is just horrible. Do you realize just how wrong that is? You need to change professions to something where you have no direct effect on people's future. Because that holy spirit of yours could have just as easily told you that you were justified to give that student a bad grade because you disliked her, and since by your own admission you can't seem to decide these things for yourself...
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  • wavycurly40+wavycurly40+ Posts: 2,017Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    legends wrote: »
    Myradella3 wrote: »
    I went back and changed her grade to reflect that of the other student. I didn't do it because the University told me to; I did it because the Holy Spirit told me to. My relationship with Christ doesn't have a timeclock so I can't punch in and out. Obama professes faith in Jesus as his Savior. Why wouldn't he want the Lord's presence invoked (in a formal, public way)?
    Wow. So instead of using common sense, ethics, and a plain old sense of fairness, you needed the "holy spirit" to guide you? Either you're saying that it's impossible for non-believers to do the right thing because they don't have some magical spirit telling them what to do, or you're saying that you possess no ethics or critical thinking skills of your own and you need some kind of authority figure to keep you in line at all times. Either way, that is just horrible. ...

    Sorry, but I have to say I think that's a little harsh. We all have personal moral codes. Some of us say they come from God; others say they come from ourselves. As long as we have them, I think we're not as different from each other as we may think.

    (And by the way, I AM an atheist, and am not happy about Warren, either, because the still widespread acceptance of anti-gay crap has got to go).

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  • legendslegends Posts: 3,073Registered Users
    She said that her final decision to give a fair grade had nothing to do with what was right or what the rules were ("the university didn't tell me to"), but what "the holy spirit" told her her. Yeah, I'm going to be harsh. I've read some truly awful things on this board by people with the most extreme religious views, but that small example of how someone goes about their day-to-day decision making seems so much worse to me. It's not just some idiot pontificating about the evils of sex, gays, and stem cells, it's a seemingly nice, normal person who actually has a direct effect on people's lives. That's awful.
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  • Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
    legends wrote: »
    Because that holy spirit of yours could have just as easily told you that you were justified to give that student a bad grade because you disliked her, and since by your own admission you can't seem to decide these things for yourself...

    I'm not going to convince you, but the beautiful thing is that I wouldn't be told to do the wrong thing. The point, as not to derail the thread, is that if you are a person of faith, that faith impact all aspects of your life. Should a Jewish person be elected president, I'm sure he or she would want a Rabbi publicly invoking God's presence on such a special occasion.
  • wavycurly40+wavycurly40+ Posts: 2,017Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    legends wrote: »
    She said that her final decision to give a fair grade had nothing to do with what was right or what the rules were ("the university didn't tell me to"), but what "the holy spirit" told her her. .

    I think that her statement about the holy spirit is just her way of saying she WAS doing what was right. I know, I know, it's not my way of viewing it, either. But I do think the views are not as far apart as we think. I could never separate my morals & ideals from my work. People who are religious say that they can't remove faith from their work. I think we may be saying basically the same thing, just in different words. I don't know this for sure, ok? I'm just trying to understand even though it's not my way.

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  • TillyMunchyWavesTillyMunchyWaves Posts: 671Registered Users
    Just wanted to say that I was hardly talking about being ethical at work.

    I was more along the lines of keep organized religion at home, ie a coworker gave us Merry Christmas cards that told us that unless we were part of her religion, I don't want to mention it here, we were going to burn in hell even if we are good people. She can think that and everything but it doesn't belong at work.

    I think that your basic code of ethics is going to be intact no matter what, for instance, I don't start eating meat when I'm at work because I leave my ethics and personal beliefs at home.
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  • wavycurly40+wavycurly40+ Posts: 2,017Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Just wanted to say that I was hardly talking about being ethical at work.

    I was more along the lines of keep organized religion at home, ie a coworker gave us Merry Christmas cards that told us that unless we were part of her religion, I don't want to mention it here, we were going to burn in hell even if we are good people. She can think that and everything but it doesn't belong at work.

    I think that your basic code of ethics is going to be intact no matter what, for instance, I don't start eating meat when I'm at work because I leave my ethics and personal beliefs at home.

    And I would totally agree with you that those cards are inappropriate. Even though she believes she's doing what's right, I would be very angry to have that pushed on me. This is why I DO support the idea that overt displays of religion should be kept OUT of the workplace.

    And for the record, it does bother me that it's not considered acceptable to call oneself an atheist, or for politicians to not be religious.

    I also believe that, like it or not, the poster was right who said Obama's faith is part of what makes him who he is. It's a tricky, tricky line.

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  • legendslegends Posts: 3,073Registered Users
    Myradella3 wrote: »
    legends wrote: »
    Because that holy spirit of yours could have just as easily told you that you were justified to give that student a bad grade because you disliked her, and since by your own admission you can't seem to decide these things for yourself...

    I'm not going to convince you, but the beautiful thing is that I wouldn't be told to do the wrong thing. The point, as not to derail the thread, is that if you are a person of faith, that faith impact all aspects of your life. Should a Jewish person be elected president, I'm sure he or she would want a Rabbi publicly invoking God's presence on such a special occasion.
    I agree with the bolded...we're all a sum of our experiences and our world-view obviously impacts everything we do. My problem is with the lack of logic and circular thinking in that first sentence. Of course your holy spirit won't tell you to do the wrong thing. The holy spirit is always right in your eyes, so it can tell you to rob a bank, and it wouldn't be wrong. There is something fundamentally (pardon the pun) wrong with making decisions that way.
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  • Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
    legends wrote: »
    The holy spirit is always right in your eyes, so it can tell you to rob a bank, and it wouldn't be wrong. There is something fundamentally (pardon the pun) wrong with making decisions that way.

    I'm sure there are no words that I know how to use or combine to help you understand the role of the Holy Spirit in my life. Since I'm sure we'd both agree on that, I'll make this my last comment on that part of this thread.
  • .patience..patience. Posts: 537Registered Users
    Mar wrote: »
    Well,I look at it this way:he said he was going to reach out to everybody,right?

    this is true. but it is only disappointing to me not just because of the issues Warren is against but, because of his "colorful" ways of expressing how he feels about those issues. :angry7:
  • A_la_Nap-turalA_la_Nap-tural Posts: 409Registered Users
    I agree with the bolded...we're all a sum of our experiences and our world-view obviously impacts everything we do. My problem is with the lack of logic and circular thinking in that first sentence. Of course your holy spirit won't tell you to do the wrong thing. The holy spirit is always right in your eyes, so it can tell you to rob a bank, and it wouldn't be wrong. There is something fundamentally (pardon the pun) wrong with making decisions that way.
    God does not fail, and neither does His advocate. The Spirit would not lead us to do anything that is against God's will.

    No, there is nothing wrong with the way we (the faithful) make decisions. It's just different from how you make them, and from my own experience, consulting with the Spirit on decisions has saved me lots of heartache and stress. Since we believe there is a God and He is all knowing and holds all power, it makes sense to trust His understanding rather than leaning to our own. Our logic and reasoning begins with the infinite knowledge of God. And furthermore, no one is perfect, so who are you to point at me and claim that I lack intelligence and the necessary tools of critical thinking and understanding to arrive at a proper conclusion to my problem? Do you think there is something superior to your train of though as opposed to someone who prays and submits their will to the Holy Spirit?


    Rather than being insulting, I think the best thing you can do is admit that you don't understand our faith nor do you understand the value of having a personal relationship with God. Maybe you had some run in with it, or were heavily in it at one point and time, but you still don't understand each individuals faith and why they feel their faith encourages them to be a better person, make better decisions, and live to do good beyond themselves.
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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    God does not fail, and neither does His advocate. The Spirit would not lead us to do anything that is against God's will.



    What does "His advocate" mean? Preachers?
  • MichelleBFTMichelleBFT Posts: 4,812Registered Users
    I agree with the bolded...we're all a sum of our experiences and our world-view obviously impacts everything we do. My problem is with the lack of logic and circular thinking in that first sentence. Of course your holy spirit won't tell you to do the wrong thing. The holy spirit is always right in your eyes, so it can tell you to rob a bank, and it wouldn't be wrong. There is something fundamentally (pardon the pun) wrong with making decisions that way.
    God does not fail, and neither does His advocate. The Spirit would not lead us to do anything that is against God's will.

    No, there is nothing wrong with the way we (the faithful) make decisions. It's just different from how you make them, and from my own experience, consulting with the Spirit on decisions has saved me lots of heartache and stress. Since we believe there is a God and He is all knowing and holds all power, it makes sense to trust His understanding rather than leaning to our own. Our logic and reasoning begins with the infinite knowledge of God. And furthermore, no one is perfect, so who are you to point at me and claim that I lack intelligence and the necessary tools of critical thinking and understanding to arrive at a proper conclusion to my problem? Do you think there is something superior to your train of though as opposed to someone who prays and submits their will to the Holy Spirit?


    Rather than being insulting, I think the best thing you can do is admit that you don't understand our faith nor do you understand the value of having a personal relationship with God. Maybe you had some run in with it, or were heavily in it at one point and time, but you still don't understand each individuals faith and why they feel their faith encourages them to be a better person, make better decisions, and live to do good beyond themselves.

    Ahem. She's a poster on an internet forum who has formed an opinion of someone's actions based on what that person has said about those actions on said forum. She's perfectly justified in callin' it as she sees it.

    And I agree with her.

    Granted, I'm an atheist and the whole "faith" thing is completely lost on me. I'm not going to argue with you or anyone else about faith, religion or anything like that, but when someone puts it out there that rather than basing someone grade on something tactile and factually sound like, I don't know, the quality of the work they've turned in, I think it's fair to question their logic. Most professors and instructors have a pretty set algorithm for how they accumulate grades. I really wouldn't want a grade based on something other than my work or my proficiency in the subject-- and I sure as sh t wouldn't want a grade based on the supposed divine communications my professor had while grading. Especially since that could just as easily work against me, and even if it works in my favor, it's certainly unfair to the people around me. Faith and holy spirit or not.
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  • A_la_Nap-turalA_la_Nap-tural Posts: 409Registered Users
    God does not fail, and neither does His advocate. The Spirit would not lead us to do anything that is against God's will.



    What does "His advocate" mean? Preachers?


    The Holy Spirit... also referred to as the Counselor, Comforter, Helper, Spirit of Truth and Paraclete.:thumright:
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  • KookyCurlKookyCurl Posts: 1,980Registered Users
    I agree with the bolded...we're all a sum of our experiences and our world-view obviously impacts everything we do. My problem is with the lack of logic and circular thinking in that first sentence. Of course your holy spirit won't tell you to do the wrong thing. The holy spirit is always right in your eyes, so it can tell you to rob a bank, and it wouldn't be wrong. There is something fundamentally (pardon the pun) wrong with making decisions that way.
    God does not fail, and neither does His advocate. The Spirit would not lead us to do anything that is against God's will.

    No, there is nothing wrong with the way we (the faithful) make decisions. It's just different from how you make them, and from my own experience, consulting with the Spirit on decisions has saved me lots of heartache and stress. Since we believe there is a God and He is all knowing and holds all power, it makes sense to trust His understanding rather than leaning to our own. Our logic and reasoning begins with the infinite knowledge of God. And furthermore, no one is perfect, so who are you to point at me and claim that I lack intelligence and the necessary tools of critical thinking and understanding to arrive at a proper conclusion to my problem? Do you think there is something superior to your train of though as opposed to someone who prays and submits their will to the Holy Spirit?


    Rather than being insulting, I think the best thing you can do is admit that you don't understand our faith nor do you understand the value of having a personal relationship with God. Maybe you had some run in with it, or were heavily in it at one point and time, but you still don't understand each individuals faith and why they feel their faith encourages them to be a better person, make better decisions, and live to do good beyond themselves.

    Ahem. She's a poster on an internet forum who has formed an opinion of someone's actions based on what that person has said about those actions on said forum. She's perfectly justified in callin' it as she sees it.

    And I agree with her.

    Granted, I'm an atheist and the whole "faith" thing is completely lost on me. I'm not going to argue with you or anyone else about faith, religion or anything like that, but when someone puts it out there that rather than basing someone grade on something tactile and factually sound like, I don't know, the quality of the work they've turned in, I think it's fair to question their logic. Most professors and instructors have a pretty set algorithm for how they accumulate grades. I really wouldn't want a grade based on something other than my work or my proficiency in the subject-- and I sure as sh t wouldn't want a grade based on the supposed divine communications my professor had while grading. Especially since that could just as easily work against me, and even if it works in my favor, it's certainly unfair to the people around me. Faith and holy spirit or not.

    I am not a christian or an atheist and I think jumping to conclusions about her grading process is bogus. It's exactly the kind of rhetoric that reinforces the perceptions that Christians are crazy and atheists think everyone who has faith are wrong. That kind of thinking is wrong. She was using an example of her experience. She didn't grade the paper because of what the holy ghost told her to grade it. She prayed for her personal feelings to NOT affect the grading process and for her to have the clarity of mind to keep her personal feelings out of the grading process. I don't know what school you go to but I've had plenty of experience of grades being based on personal feelings. I know a few people who contribute nothing to class, do shoddy work, and are regularly not there who sail through with great grades because they've charmed the teacher. While others might not see a need for prayer in that instance that just listening to their inner moral compass would do the trick, for people of faith that IS their inner moral compass.

    As for Obama wanting to include a prayer in the inauguration service. Well good for him. He is a Christian man and has made NO bones about that. Yes his choice of pastor may leave a lot to be desired, but the prayer itself is for him and his family and the country. I'd actually like to see him include a short prayer from a variety of different faiths and practices that make up this country.
    He has also made NO secret of not being able to support gay marriage on the grounds of his faith. It's about the word marriage (which means different things to different people). I don't agree with it, but I think that's a personal journey he is still on.

    As for the separation of church and state those laws do a lot of good, and they do a lot of harm as well. A good majority of our founders were Deists if not Christians. They believed in the Divine Watchmaker, Great Creator. Many did not approve of the King of England being the head of the English church and regulating how people could worship. They had endured centuries of wars being fought on the basis of religion. They came to America to escape the roving eye of the monarch to practice in their own way. That doesn't mean they were more tolerant of others in their position. They most definitely were not. They just did not feel that the government had a right to legislate a persons relationship with God. That was personal. Though in colonial New England voting was based on church membership until the Crown took a tighter control of the colonly and then based it on property.
  • A_la_Nap-turalA_la_Nap-tural Posts: 409Registered Users
    I really wouldn't want a grade based on something other than my work or my proficiency in the subject-- and I sure as sh t wouldn't want a grade based on the supposed divine communications my professor had while grading. Especially since that could just as easily work against me, and even if it works in my favor, it's certainly unfair to the people around me. Faith and holy spirit or not.

    Granted, cuz if someone was grading my paper and gave me a crappy grade and then said the spirit made 'em do it, I'd be pissed, but I'd question if they were actually in tune to the spirit or if they were acting on their own emotions/logic and hiding behind their religion to justify their motives, as this is usually the case.

    In this case, it was the spirit that encouraged her to grade fairly. It was her own emotions that prompted her to ignore her logic and dish out an unfair grade. Contrary to what you may think, a believer cannot control the spirit or when it speaks. There's no power button on our "God receiver", so any time you're not doing right it's going to speak up weather you like what it's saying or not. And it transcends logic and emotion, thankfully. One of the side effects of submitting your will to the will of God....

    And although I don't understand how someone could not want to or are unable to recognize God's existence, I don't dismiss their intelligence or decision making ability by suggesting their thought process or reasoning is fundamentally wrong and flawed to a degree where there is no logic and all thought is circular. I expect the same respect... even on said forum.
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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    KookyCurl wrote: »
    As for the separation of church and state those laws do a lot of good, and they do a lot of harm as well.



    Such as? What harm does keeping religion out of government do?
  • legendslegends Posts: 3,073Registered Users
    And furthermore, no one is perfect, so who are you to point at me and claim that I lack intelligence and the necessary tools of critical thinking and understanding to arrive at a proper conclusion to my problem? Do you think there is something superior to your train of though as opposed to someone who prays and submits their will to the Holy Spirit?
    I don't think I'm superior to anyone. I do think that using logic and conscience to make decisions is always preferable to waiting for some divine intervention.

    Honestly, I suppose that what you're actually doing and you chose to believe that it's the holy spirit talking to you, which wouldn't be a big deal, except that once you convince yourself that your conscience is actually the holy spirit talking, it's only a very small leap before you start doing some really bad things because because the holy spirit told you to.

    "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." Voltaire

    ETA:
    I'd question if they were actually in tune to the spirit or if they were acting on their own emotions/logic and hiding behind their religion to justify their motives, as this is usually the case.
    That's convenient. Really, that totally proves my point about the lack of logic.
    Eres o te haces?
  • A_la_Nap-turalA_la_Nap-tural Posts: 409Registered Users
    Personally, I feel like our conscience is always right. But some people ignore their conscience and act on their desires, which stem from the heart. That's easy to do ya know, most women do it once a month... run on emotions and hide logic in a box somewhere for about a week. I believe that the Holy Spirit steps in when we're unsure, even with all our understanding, about which way to go or when we've ignored our conscience about what we know is right.

    And I don't really see how that proves your theory of lacking logic, as I think it more proves that some ignore logic, conscience and the spirit to pursue the desires of their heart. The conscience can be quieted with practice and logic is almost always thrown out of the window when it comes to strong emotion.

    Also, Christians don't completely throw out everything they've learned over the years as far as how to reason. We still incorporate our logic when consulting the Holy Spirit. But we admit that our logic and understanding is limited (as is everyone's), and God's understanding is infinite.
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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Personally, I feel like our conscience is always right. But some people ignore their conscience and act on their desires, which stem from the heart. That's easy to do ya know, most women do it once a month... run on emotions and hide logic in a box somewhere for about a week.


    Oh, bullsh1t. Speak for yourself only, please. Maybe you lose your logic and common sense one week a month, but I do not. I hate when women make broad generalizations that we are lesser-thinking humans than men are, and therefore inferior, because we menstruate. Most women I know do not lose their minds because of menstruation.

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