CurlTalk

ACV rinse after protein/DTs or before?

A few consecutive bad hair days always gets me thinking (probably overthinking). I'd pretty much decided that my more natural product choices have left my finer textured hair in need of protein. However, it doesn't seem to have helped like I'd hoped or expected. It seems stringy, weighed-down, AND more frizz-prone than usual. Also, it's less curly than it has been. :( I've had phases like this in the past, but either I don't remember what I changed to make it "better", or I didn't change anything and it rebounded on it's own.

From StruttsWife's site:

" The Cuticle

The cuticle is the outer layer of hair. It is not one solid layer, but instead is made of individual scales that lay against one another just like roof tiles. The cuticle of a healthy hair strand will lie flat and protect the inside of the hair shaft against damage, as well as keep moisture in your hair where it belongs. Learning how to keep the cuticle of your hair shut is one of the most important things you can do to keep your hair healthy, moisturized and frizz-free."


/home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.livecurlylivefree.com%2Fcurly%2520hair%2520basics.htm" class="Popup



Like many posters here, I use ACV or citric acid rinses to guard against build-up from my shampoo bars and to close the cuticle. I'm wondering if treatments "take" better depending on whether the cuticle is closed before or after a protein and/or moisturinzing treatment. Perhaps using the ACV rinse immediately following 'pooing is causing "insta-build-up", and I'm not getting the proper benefit because I'm prematurely closing the cuticle?

Can anyone weigh in on this?
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pw=hairhairhair

Shampoo bars w/Organic ACV rinses
KBB milk wash out, Super Silky leave-in
Donna Marie CCB, KCCC, FSG, and Cocoa Hemp Buttercream to scrunch the crunch.

2C/3A, slightly past BSL.

Comments

  • MimsTXMimsTX Posts: 3,482Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Hmm...

    well, it DOES make sense that your moisture/protein DT would 'take' better if the cuticle is open... but I really don't know of a sure-fire way to open your cuticle that doesn't run the risk of damaging your hair in some way (which is a bit counterproductive). Shampoos, heat, citric acid, etc all open the cuticle, if I"m not mistaken. But it doesn't seem to make much sense to use a sulfate shampoo (hello, drying) right before a moisture DT when you're trying to hydrate your hair. It's kind of like 1 step forward, 2 back in that situation.

    For protein treatments... I dunno. I've only done one, and it was the Aphogee 2 step. The instructions said to shampoo first, so I did... the hows and whys of it, I don't have a clue about.

    I don't THINK that having the cuticle open versus closed it would affect a DT (moisture or protein) all that much though. If you're 'pooing before hand anyways, I'd say definitely wait until AFTER the treatment to use ACV to close the cuticle back up. But I wouldn't go out of my way to open it before a treatment.

    (sorry, that was really long winded and I didn't really have all that much to offer)
    CG/Mod CG (soap bars) since 8/12/08
    CO wash/Cond: Kathymack & Flowermoon Castille soap bars, V05 Chamomile Tea, Suave Ocean Breeze, Biolage Conditioning Balm
    Styling loves: DIFFUSING! CK, KCNT, KCCC, FOTE (on dry hair only), Re:coil, Proclaim gel
    Not sure about: Boots, Tweek, KBB Milk, DMHJ
    HATE: plopping, FOTE on wet hair, BRHG
  • kathymackkathymack Posts: 9,999Registered Users
    KW, I'm not sure if porosity enters into this. After reading the same page of SW's website, I meant to ask my stylist if my hair is low porosity last time I saw him. That could make a difference.
    3a (Corkicelli), highlighted, fine, low porosity
    SE PA

    HGs: Anything Sevi; Curly Kinks Satin Roots, Curlycue ReNew and Coil Jam; homemade FSG and okra gel; soap bars; UFD Curly Magic; Botanical Spirits Jellies, CJ Repair Me, Aloe Fix
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • EponaBlackhorseEponaBlackhorse Posts: 304Registered Users
    Its funny you posted this since I was just thinking something similar in the shower this evening before doing a DT. I decided to do a baking soda rinse before the DT to hopefully open the cuticle and let the DT penetrate more. I don't know if it helped at all but it definitely didn't hurt. I think the DT closed the cuticle on its own for the most part but I also did a final rinse with cold water just to make sure. :)
    3a, medium texture, low porosity(?)
    Poo: KC Come Clean
    Rinse-out Condish: Jessicurl Too Shea
    Leave-in: KCKT
    Styling Products: KCCC, HETT/HESMU, Joiwhip
    Weekly Treatment: Jessicurl Weekly Deep Conditioner
    Monthly Treatment: Henna

    Hair Pics (most I've hidden from public view but if you want to see more, PM me and I'll open up the security on them): /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fflickr.com%2Fphotos%2Feponaaran%2Fsets%2F72157610671796089%2F" class="Popup
  • KindaWavyKindaWavy Posts: 383Registered Users
    Thanks for the responses, girls! :)

    I'm probably grasping for straws on this one, and I'd definitely be better off if I weren't such an impatient PJ. I just can't seem to make myself change just one thing at a time!

    My hair is so weird due to all the bleaching and color I've done over the years. I'm not even entirely certain whether I have medium texture with high porosity or fine texture with medium porosity- it depends on which hairs I grab. LOL I try not to get too caught up with the "classifications" (be it curl type, texture, or porosity- I'm all over the map in each category, it seems), but I'm convinced it'd go a long way towards dealing with my hair on an as needed and day to day basis.

    This may be a question for StruttsWife, herself. Tiff, if you're reading, as much as I hate to bug you at the salon (especially during the busy holiday season), you just might be getting a call from me if I can't get a handle on these bad hair days soon! ;)
    Photobucket acct: /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fs432.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq48%2FKindaWavy%2F" class="Popup
    pw=hairhairhair

    Shampoo bars w/Organic ACV rinses
    KBB milk wash out, Super Silky leave-in
    Donna Marie CCB, KCCC, FSG, and Cocoa Hemp Buttercream to scrunch the crunch.

    2C/3A, slightly past BSL.
  • StruttsWifeStruttsWife Posts: 819Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    KindaWavy wrote: »
    This may be a question for StruttsWife, herself. Tiff, if you're reading, as much as I hate to bug you at the salon (especially during the busy holiday season), you just might be getting a call from me if I can't get a handle on these bad hair days soon! ;)
    Honey, you can call me anytime ... any of you can. This is a maniacal time of year in Salon World, so I haven't had time to post, but I hope to catch up with the board after the holidays.

    Just leave a message if I'm with a client and I'll call you back just as soon as I can :)
    - Tiffany
    Hair Stylist and Curly Hair Specialist - St. Petersburg, FL (Tampa Bay)

    Blog: Live Curly, Live Free
    Facebook fan page: Live Curly Live Free

    Sulfate- and non-water soluble silicone-free since 04/22/2002
    3B, brunette: medium texture, low porosity, high density

  • DEL2CDEL2C Posts: 6,418Registered Users
    KindaWavy wrote: »
    This may be a question for StruttsWife, herself. Tiff, if you're reading, as much as I hate to bug you at the salon (especially during the busy holiday season), you just might be getting a call from me if I can't get a handle on these bad hair days soon! ;)
    Honey, you can call me anytime ... any of you can. This is a maniacal time of year in Salon World, so I haven't had time to post, but I hope to catch up with the board after the holidays.

    Just leave a message if I'm with a client and I'll call you back just as soon as I can :)
    REALLY even if we're not in FL??? :toothy3:

    Kindawavy PLEASE post after you talk to Tiffany! Very curious about this myself!
    Discovered CG 2007

    2C Fia BSL/Thick/Med-Coarse/Low(crown)-Normal Porosity Protein and Oil Sensitive

    Link-Spritz & Condish Washing:glasses7:

    I'm aCurlJunkieJunky :love4:

    My hair LOVES Coconut DESPISES Soap Bars :tongue6:


    CJRehab or H&B Fix, Deva NO POO, EO Rose & Cham POO & Condish, CJ CurlFix, CJ Pattern Pusha, CJ CIAB, SS FHG, KCCC, BRHG, AG Mousse Gel, ACV Rinses,Shikakai Conditioning Hair Rinse.
  • BoomygrrlBoomygrrl Posts: 4,940Registered Users
    I don't know for sure...I'm just thinking of the "mechanics" of this all...what each thing does.
    I would think you wouldn't need to do an ACV rinse if you're doing a DT. An ACV rinse helps to close the cuticle. I would think a DT would be doing the same thing.

    I'm biased against baking soda, so take it for what it's worth here...but I would caution against using baking soda to open up the cuticle, for fear that it will break off some of the cuticles and damage it. Perhaps a shampooing could open it up. However, I think many DTs work just as well without opening up the cuticle. I can just think of past experiences in which it was recommended to put DT on dry hair. I mean dry, as opposed to wet...not dry (not oily).
    That's right, I said it! I wear scrunchies!!

    I am a sulfate washing, cone slabbing, curly lovin' s.o.b. The CG police haven't caught me yet.
    :blob8:

    3a/3b
  • KindaWavyKindaWavy Posts: 383Registered Users
    Honey, you can call me anytime ... any of you can. This is a maniacal time of year in Salon World, so I haven't had time to post, but I hope to catch up with the board after the holidays.

    Just leave a message if I'm with a client and I'll call you back just as soon as I can :)


    OK, now ya did it! You know me and my motormouth.. :lol: I can only imagine how swamped you are at this time of year, so I promise to have my ?s listed so I don't take up too much of your time.
    Photobucket acct: /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fs432.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq48%2FKindaWavy%2F" class="Popup
    pw=hairhairhair

    Shampoo bars w/Organic ACV rinses
    KBB milk wash out, Super Silky leave-in
    Donna Marie CCB, KCCC, FSG, and Cocoa Hemp Buttercream to scrunch the crunch.

    2C/3A, slightly past BSL.
  • KindaWavyKindaWavy Posts: 383Registered Users
    DEL2C wrote: »
    REALLY even if we're not in FL??? :toothy3:

    Kindawavy PLEASE post after you talk to Tiffany! Very curious about this myself!


    I definitely will- just watch this spot! It sounds like our schedules may not synch 'til later today or tomorrow, but I left Tiffany a message at the salon a few minutes ago.

    And just for the record, SW is the most approachable and passionate stylist I've ever come across, especially when it comes to questions and educating curlies about their hair. You can tell by talking with her for 30 seconds how much she loves what she does. My reticence to call at the salon (especially during this busy season *cringe*) is solely due to my known tendency to overanalyze, have a zillion questions, and most of all, the fact that I am an immense jabberjaw. :laughing9: I can't have her getting tired of me, although I know she's too sweet to ever show it if she was!
    Photobucket acct: /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fs432.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq48%2FKindaWavy%2F" class="Popup
    pw=hairhairhair

    Shampoo bars w/Organic ACV rinses
    KBB milk wash out, Super Silky leave-in
    Donna Marie CCB, KCCC, FSG, and Cocoa Hemp Buttercream to scrunch the crunch.

    2C/3A, slightly past BSL.
  • KindaWavyKindaWavy Posts: 383Registered Users
    Boomygrrl wrote: »
    I don't know for sure...I'm just thinking of the "mechanics" of this all...what each thing does.
    I would think you wouldn't need to do an ACV rinse if you're doing a DT. An ACV rinse helps to close the cuticle. I would think a DT would be doing the same thing.

    I'm biased against baking soda, so take it for what it's worth here...but I would caution against using baking soda to open up the cuticle, for fear that it will break off some of the cuticles and damage it. Perhaps a shampooing could open it up. However, I think many DTs work just as well without opening up the cuticle. I can just think of past experiences in which it was recommended to put DT on dry hair. I mean dry, as opposed to wet...not dry (not oily).


    I think you're right about needing to open the cuticle before a DT. I should probably have made sure to do them on dry hair, as I've noticed that moisturizing DTs do better on dry hair. I guess, at least in theory, it's the the inverse of wetting the hair before swimming so that the clear water prevents chlorine from penetrating the cuticle so much.

    I've been using shampoo bars and the occasional 'poo (I was getting pretty weighed down when I was co-washing only), so I figure that their alkalinity has already opened the cuticle when I went to apply the protein treatments. All of a sudden, my hair seems to have symptoms of both too much protein *and* moisture, which is a new one on me. Weird, eh?
    Photobucket acct: /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fs432.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fqq48%2FKindaWavy%2F" class="Popup
    pw=hairhairhair

    Shampoo bars w/Organic ACV rinses
    KBB milk wash out, Super Silky leave-in
    Donna Marie CCB, KCCC, FSG, and Cocoa Hemp Buttercream to scrunch the crunch.

    2C/3A, slightly past BSL.
  • BoomygrrlBoomygrrl Posts: 4,940Registered Users
    Then, I would encourage you to not do protein treatments or DT's for awhile. I rarely need to DT, due to overconditioning.
    That's right, I said it! I wear scrunchies!!

    I am a sulfate washing, cone slabbing, curly lovin' s.o.b. The CG police haven't caught me yet.
    :blob8:

    3a/3b
  • StruttsWifeStruttsWife Posts: 819Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    DEL2C wrote: »
    REALLY even if we're not in FL??? :toothy3:
    Of course even if you're not in Florida :) I've had women call me from Iraq and England!
    KindaWavy wrote: »
    I definitely will- just watch this spot! It sounds like our schedules may not synch 'til later today or tomorrow, but I left Tiffany a message at the salon a few minutes ago.

    And just for the record, SW is the most approachable and passionate stylist I've ever come across, especially when it comes to questions and educating curlies about their hair. You can tell by talking with her for 30 seconds how much she loves what she does. My reticence to call at the salon (especially during this busy season *cringe*) is solely due to my known tendency to overanalyze, have a zillion questions, and most of all, the fact that I am an immense jabberjaw. :laughing9: I can't have her getting tired of me, although I know she's too sweet to ever show it if she was!
    Will you quit, LOL. I love talking to you and to anyone else, especially about all things curly, so it is never a problem :)

    I wanted to let you know I got your message, but I haven't left the salon until 9 p.m. for the last three days and I'm afraid I'll wake your kids if I call on my way home. I have a break early tomorrow afternoon and I'm going to do my best to call you then :)

    This stylist is exhausted and is off to bed!!!
    - Tiffany
    Hair Stylist and Curly Hair Specialist - St. Petersburg, FL (Tampa Bay)

    Blog: Live Curly, Live Free
    Facebook fan page: Live Curly Live Free

    Sulfate- and non-water soluble silicone-free since 04/22/2002
    3B, brunette: medium texture, low porosity, high density

  • DEL2CDEL2C Posts: 6,418Registered Users
    GUANO

    HAPPY BIRTHDAY KINDA WAVY :occasion4:
    Discovered CG 2007

    2C Fia BSL/Thick/Med-Coarse/Low(crown)-Normal Porosity Protein and Oil Sensitive

    Link-Spritz & Condish Washing:glasses7:

    I'm aCurlJunkieJunky :love4:

    My hair LOVES Coconut DESPISES Soap Bars :tongue6:


    CJRehab or H&B Fix, Deva NO POO, EO Rose & Cham POO & Condish, CJ CurlFix, CJ Pattern Pusha, CJ CIAB, SS FHG, KCCC, BRHG, AG Mousse Gel, ACV Rinses,Shikakai Conditioning Hair Rinse.
  • DEL2CDEL2C Posts: 6,418Registered Users
    Was there a resolution on this subject??
    Discovered CG 2007

    2C Fia BSL/Thick/Med-Coarse/Low(crown)-Normal Porosity Protein and Oil Sensitive

    Link-Spritz & Condish Washing:glasses7:

    I'm aCurlJunkieJunky :love4:

    My hair LOVES Coconut DESPISES Soap Bars :tongue6:


    CJRehab or H&B Fix, Deva NO POO, EO Rose & Cham POO & Condish, CJ CurlFix, CJ Pattern Pusha, CJ CIAB, SS FHG, KCCC, BRHG, AG Mousse Gel, ACV Rinses,Shikakai Conditioning Hair Rinse.
  • StruttsWifeStruttsWife Posts: 819Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    KW and I have been playing phone tag. Right now, she's It ;)
    - Tiffany
    Hair Stylist and Curly Hair Specialist - St. Petersburg, FL (Tampa Bay)

    Blog: Live Curly, Live Free
    Facebook fan page: Live Curly Live Free

    Sulfate- and non-water soluble silicone-free since 04/22/2002
    3B, brunette: medium texture, low porosity, high density

  • DEL2CDEL2C Posts: 6,418Registered Users
    Oh Tiffany can't you give us your professional opinion on this subject and skip the phone tag???? :laughing8:
    Discovered CG 2007

    2C Fia BSL/Thick/Med-Coarse/Low(crown)-Normal Porosity Protein and Oil Sensitive

    Link-Spritz & Condish Washing:glasses7:

    I'm aCurlJunkieJunky :love4:

    My hair LOVES Coconut DESPISES Soap Bars :tongue6:


    CJRehab or H&B Fix, Deva NO POO, EO Rose & Cham POO & Condish, CJ CurlFix, CJ Pattern Pusha, CJ CIAB, SS FHG, KCCC, BRHG, AG Mousse Gel, ACV Rinses,Shikakai Conditioning Hair Rinse.
  • StruttsWifeStruttsWife Posts: 819Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Okay, okay, LOL. One small caveat: I have NOT had a cup of coffee yet, so if this is slightly (or more than slightly) incoherent, you know why.

    A good hairdresser who is in tune with how hair works will manipulate the cuticle all the time when performing a service. The two basic principles to remember are this:

    1. Hot and alkaline open the hair cuticle
    2. Cold and acid shut the hair cuticle

    That's why I keep harping on following a baking soda scrub (alkaline) immediately with an ACV rinse (acidic). You open the cuticle during a baking soda scrub and get all the "nasties" out of the hair shaft; but if you don't follow with an ACV rinse to shut everything back down, you are leaving your cuticle wide open and you will set yourself up for frizz.

    Porosity -- the ability of your hair to absorb moisture -- plays a big part in all of this, however. If your hair is overly porous, the cuticle always remains open, so you absorb moisture easily ... but you release it just as easily. Overly porous hair, which is most commonly caused by overprocessing, can't be shut down by a simple acid or cold application.

    That's where protein treatments come in, known as "reconstructing" in the trade. Unless the hair is severely damaged, you can temporarily help to mend the hair shaft with protein conditioning, which will fill in the holes in the cortex blown out by bleaching and smooth the cuticle scales. You should remember that NOTHING permanently repairs damaged hair, however. Once your hair is damaged, the only thing you can do is use temporary solutions to give the illusion of healthy hair until the damage grows out.

    The downside of using protein treatments, as we all know, is that they can be very drying, depending on your hair type. Those with coarse or medium-coarse hair are typically more susceptible to this issue, so deep treatments full of emollients and humectants are a must when reconstructing. Those with fine hair are usually in need of more protein and are weighed down by heavy conditioning, so this step is likely unnecessary ... but, again, the condition of your hair -- its texture and porosity -- is key in determining all of this.

    As far as doing treatments on wet vs. dry hair: another basic principle with hair is that moisture attracts moisture. A wet substance will always be more attracted to another web substance than it is to a dry substance. You can manipulate this principle to your advantage as well, as long as you are mindful of the degree of moisture you are using.

    I always advise clients who swim to rinse their hair with plain water prior to getting in the pool. The plain water is absorbed into the hair shaft and helps to prevent the chlorine water from penetrating since there is nowhere for it to go. So, if your hair is too wet when you try to do a deep treatment or a protein reconstruction, you will have difficulty getting the treatment into the hair shaft since it is already filled up with water.

    If, however, you VERY LIGHTLY mist your hair with water so that it is just this side of barely damp, the water mist will settle on the outside of your hair shaft and create a friendly environment for attracting another moist substance, and will help to carry it into the hair shaft. I do this all the time when I color hair and it can be an effective technique when apply a protein reconstructor or a deep treatment.

    Does this make any sense?
    - Tiffany
    Hair Stylist and Curly Hair Specialist - St. Petersburg, FL (Tampa Bay)

    Blog: Live Curly, Live Free
    Facebook fan page: Live Curly Live Free

    Sulfate- and non-water soluble silicone-free since 04/22/2002
    3B, brunette: medium texture, low porosity, high density

  • DEL2CDEL2C Posts: 6,418Registered Users
    Like many posters here, I use ACV or citric acid rinses to guard against build-up from my shampoo bars and to close the cuticle. I'm wondering if treatments "take" better depending on whether the cuticle is closed before or after a protein and/or moisturinzing treatment. Perhaps using the ACV rinse immediately following 'pooing is causing "insta-build-up", and I'm not getting the proper benefit because I'm prematurely closing the cuticle?

    Tiffany are you saying that ACV rinse and Protein treatments (or a DT rich in Protein) may not work as well when used together?? I'm sorry I guess I'm still a little confused......I understand the principle of opening and closing the cuticles and manipulating it but not sure if you would do an ACV after a protein DT or Before or not in the same wash?
    Discovered CG 2007

    2C Fia BSL/Thick/Med-Coarse/Low(crown)-Normal Porosity Protein and Oil Sensitive

    Link-Spritz & Condish Washing:glasses7:

    I'm aCurlJunkieJunky :love4:

    My hair LOVES Coconut DESPISES Soap Bars :tongue6:


    CJRehab or H&B Fix, Deva NO POO, EO Rose & Cham POO & Condish, CJ CurlFix, CJ Pattern Pusha, CJ CIAB, SS FHG, KCCC, BRHG, AG Mousse Gel, ACV Rinses,Shikakai Conditioning Hair Rinse.
  • SunshineGrrlSunshineGrrl Posts: 3,823Registered Users
    From what I'm reading, I believe what she's saying is that doing an ACV rinse before a protein treatment is useless because it's closing the shaft you're hoping to put the reconctructor in. That's why applying heat to a DT always helps with penetration...it opens the cuticle.

    From what I'm reading, it sounds like slightly misting your hair until it's just barely shy of damp (maybe with warmish water SW?) will help open the hair shaft, then applying the reconstructor or moisturizing DT, applying heat or letting the natural heat from your head penetrate the DT, then rinsing after the appropriate time has passed. THEN using an ACV to seal all that goodness in your hair is the best course of action.

    I hope I read that right.

  • DEL2CDEL2C Posts: 6,418Registered Users
    PHEW!!!!! I hope that's right too! Thanks sunshine girl for your input, you'd think I started this thread :laughing7: This stuff is so COMPLEX JEEZ!!! It's HAIR but it certainly is chemistry too!!!!!


    OOPS-so how does washing come in to play here? Would you Mist, DT, Wash, ACV??? Sound about right?
    Discovered CG 2007

    2C Fia BSL/Thick/Med-Coarse/Low(crown)-Normal Porosity Protein and Oil Sensitive

    Link-Spritz & Condish Washing:glasses7:

    I'm aCurlJunkieJunky :love4:

    My hair LOVES Coconut DESPISES Soap Bars :tongue6:


    CJRehab or H&B Fix, Deva NO POO, EO Rose & Cham POO & Condish, CJ CurlFix, CJ Pattern Pusha, CJ CIAB, SS FHG, KCCC, BRHG, AG Mousse Gel, ACV Rinses,Shikakai Conditioning Hair Rinse.
  • SunshineGrrlSunshineGrrl Posts: 3,823Registered Users
    DEL2C wrote: »
    PHEW!!!!! I hope that's right too! Thanks sunshine girl for your input, you'd think I started this thread :laughing7: This stuff is so COMPLEX JEEZ!!! It's HAIR but it certainly is chemistry too!!!!!


    OOPS-so how does washing come in to play here? Would you Mist, DT, Wash, ACV??? Sound about right?

    One of these days, I'll be sure about what I'm telling you (starting cosmetology school Jan 5), but until that happens...This is my understanding:

    I don't believe you actually have to wash, just mist. BUT, if you feel the compulsion to wash (I do and don't really have a reasoning for it other than it just feels so dang good!), I would wash, use as little detangler as you can, then wrap the head in a terry cloth towel (Please use very gently). Bad, I know, but it'll certainly wick the water away to provide you with damp hair. Or I have used a chamois from the auto aisle with very good results.

    Once you have slightly damp hair on your hands, apply the DT, wait (obviously, lol!), rinse, then ACV.

    Now, if you're using something that has mineral oil or other things that are unremoveable without a sulfate...I would do: dampen, DT, rinse, wash, condition, ACV.