CurlTalk

Amodimethicone - water soluble or not?

I am seriously confused about amodimthicone. I keep reading conflicting things about whether or not it is water soluable.

I read in Struttswife's review of the Deva show that it is water soluble, but then in a CurlChemist article, it says it isn't.

Blurb from the article"

"One frequent question that arises is whether these amine-functional silicones — amodimethicone in particular — are water soluble. This question is most relevant for those on a no-shampoo routine who wash with conditioners. They fear that the only way to prevent buildup of these silicones is to use a traditional surfactant such as sodium lauryl or laureth sulfate, cocamidopropyl betaine, or the ammonium lauryl or laureth sulfates.

The short answer is that these polymers are not water soluble. The silicone is provided to product manufacturers as a mixture of silicone/cationic surfactant/nonionic surfactant, which enables it to be readily dispersed into an aqueous formulation because this mixture is water soluble. However, once the product is used and the amodimethicone is deposited onto the surface of the hair and forms a film, it is not water soluble.
Conclusions: Amodimethicone and other similarly modified silicone polymers are considered to be among the best high-performance conditioning polymers currently available to the hair-care product formulator. They provide many unique benefits, including the following:

Provide deep conditioningProvide targeted conditioning to areas of particularly damaged hairProtect from thermal damageIncrease color retentionResist build upImpart gloss and shineThese modified silicones seem to be of particular benefit for those of us with damaged hair, permanently colored hair or those concerned about the buildup of conditioning agents . It would be necessary to use a shampoo containing one of the lauryl or laureth sulfates or cocamidopropyl betaine to completely remove this silicone from the hair, which may be of concern to those who prefer to use only conditioner-cleansing methods."

So which is it?!??!? :confused1:

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Comments

  • KitaraKitara Posts: 1,224Registered Users
    From what I gather reading the board there are very mixed opinions about this cone. [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-One-Condition-p-55.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-one-condition]Devacurl One Condition[/buylink] has it in it and some say it builds up, some say it doesn't. Scientifically speaking I have no clue. :laughing7: I use it, but I wash with a SLS free shampoo once a week so maybe that's why I don't build up.

    Really, there's no consensus here. For every thread that hashes it out and comes to a conclusion another will pop up and come to a different conclusion.
  • preciousjewel76preciousjewel76 Posts: 679Registered Users
    IMO, I don't think it is, but I don't think it builds up as bad as other cones do. I'd say use a 'poo with coco betaine, at least, to remove it every so often. It really depends on your hair, though. Cones of any kind can build up in my hair pretty quickly; others can go for days/weeks without having to shampoo them out.
    4A - dense, medium strands - APL/BSL - 3+ years natural!

    :love7:YAY!: GF Triple Nutrition Conditioner, YTCu Color Care Conditioner, Shea Moisture Deep Treatment Masque, LOTD AV Gel, EVCO, JCN&S, KCCC, buns and updos!
  • a.l.i.c.e.a.l.i.c.e. Posts: 673Registered Users
    There was a thread on here a while back that said that the OneC had another ingredient in it that made the a-cone soluble, but I can't remember the details or find the thread.
    botticelli-ish bob.

    Current Routine:
    -Suave Aloe & Waterlily cowash/leave-in
    -Giovanni Direct Leave-In
    -FOTE aloe vera gel
  • preciousjewel76preciousjewel76 Posts: 679Registered Users
    There was a thread on here a while back that said that the OneC had another ingredient in it that made the a-cone soluble, but I can't remember the details or find the thread.

    I can't remember the exact ingredient, but as I recall it made the amodimethicone water-soluble in the bottle. Once amo- is deposited on the hair shaft, it is no longer water-soluble.

    Someone correct me if I'm wrong, please!
    4A - dense, medium strands - APL/BSL - 3+ years natural!

    :love7:YAY!: GF Triple Nutrition Conditioner, YTCu Color Care Conditioner, Shea Moisture Deep Treatment Masque, LOTD AV Gel, EVCO, JCN&S, KCCC, buns and updos!
  • ShamrockedShamrocked Posts: 66Registered Users
    soluble or not, I think some university should give us an honorary degree in chemistry for all the research/reading we do on ingredients!

    :wink:
  • FluffykinsFluffykins Posts: 54Registered Users
    All I know is that I have only poo'd my hair once in the past three months, and almost all of my products have both amodimethicone and dimethicone in them and I haven't had build up yet, so maybe this water soluble thing only applyes to certin textures...idk but I had to throw my two cents in.
    ...2c...3a...3b...BINGO!!!

    Hilighing Junkie. Soon to be pink.

    My HG will: volumize, moisturize, define curls, create major shine, contatin protine, eleminate any and all frizz, give me root curl, have slight hold with no crunch, make my hair grow faster, and be in mousse form. Is that so much to ask? Oh, and it would be nice if the container did tricks for me...
  • Koukla72Koukla72 Posts: 1,680Registered Users
    Edited due to a cyberstalker. Sorry, guys. :(
  • pammiecurlpammiecurl Posts: 93Registered Users
    I'm still confused as well because the conditioner that I use as a co-wash and sometimes even as a leave-in with honey and evoo (Herbal Essences Totally Twisted & Hello Hydration) contains Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone and I was told that it's water soluble in the bottle, but not on the hair. I'm trying to figure out, what sense does that make??? Why would I want a product to be water soluble in the friggin' bottle and not on my hair??? I mean, who the heck came up with this concoction for beauty products??? It's pretty darned asinine if ya ask me, lol. Just my two cents.......
  • a.l.i.c.e.a.l.i.c.e. Posts: 673Registered Users
    pammiecurl wrote: »
    I'm still confused as well because the conditioner that I use as a co-wash and sometimes even as a leave-in with honey and evoo (Herbal Essences Totally Twisted & Hello Hydration) contains Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone and I was told that it's water soluble in the bottle, but not on the hair. I'm trying to figure out, what sense does that make??? Why would I want a product to be water soluble in the friggin' bottle and not on my hair??? I mean, who the heck came up with this concoction for beauty products??? It's pretty darned asinine if ya ask me, lol. Just my two cents.......


    ITA!! I am glad you guys cleared that up. I thought the thread had said something about being soluble in the bottle, but I didn't post earlier because when I started typing it in I thought "no, fran, you must be crazy, why would they want to make it soluble only in the bottle???" so I didn't post that because I thought that I was surely remembering incorrectly.

    Yes, I said it. I talk to myself as I post on these threads.

    :pain10:
    botticelli-ish bob.

    Current Routine:
    -Suave Aloe & Waterlily cowash/leave-in
    -Giovanni Direct Leave-In
    -FOTE aloe vera gel
  • ShamrockedShamrocked Posts: 66Registered Users
    So, if it's water soluble in the bottle, does that mean it's water soluble once it's on your hair?

    How could it be one or the other?
  • pammiecurlpammiecurl Posts: 93Registered Users
    pammiecurl wrote: »
    I'm still confused as well because the conditioner that I use as a co-wash and sometimes even as a leave-in with honey and evoo (Herbal Essences Totally Twisted & Hello Hydration) contains Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone and I was told that it's water soluble in the bottle, but not on the hair. I'm trying to figure out, what sense does that make??? Why would I want a product to be water soluble in the friggin' bottle and not on my hair??? I mean, who the heck came up with this concoction for beauty products??? It's pretty darned asinine if ya ask me, lol. Just my two cents.......


    ITA!! I am glad you guys cleared that up. I thought the thread had said something about being soluble in the bottle, but I didn't post earlier because when I started typing it in I thought "no, fran, you must be crazy, why would they want to make it soluble only in the bottle???" so I didn't post that because I thought that I was surely remembering incorrectly.

    Yes, I said it. I talk to myself as I post on these threads.

    :pain10:

    LOL...I'm so glad you feel me cause' I thought I was losing my mind. :blob7:
  • pammiecurlpammiecurl Posts: 93Registered Users
    Shamrocked wrote: »
    So, if it's water soluble in the bottle, does that mean it's water soluble once it's on your hair?

    How could it be one or the other?

    From my understanding, it's water soluble inside the bottle, but not on the hairshaft. I don't get it, but ok...whatever the chemist says.....
  • ShamrockedShamrocked Posts: 66Registered Users
    pammiecurl wrote: »
    pammiecurl wrote: »
    I'm still confused as well because the conditioner that I use as a co-wash and sometimes even as a leave-in with honey and evoo (Herbal Essences Totally Twisted & Hello Hydration) contains Bis-Aminopropyl Dimethicone and I was told that it's water soluble in the bottle, but not on the hair. I'm trying to figure out, what sense does that make??? Why would I want a product to be water soluble in the friggin' bottle and not on my hair??? I mean, who the heck came up with this concoction for beauty products??? It's pretty darned asinine if ya ask me, lol. Just my two cents.......


    ITA!! I am glad you guys cleared that up. I thought the thread had said something about being soluble in the bottle, but I didn't post earlier because when I started typing it in I thought "no, fran, you must be crazy, why would they want to make it soluble only in the bottle???" so I didn't post that because I thought that I was surely remembering incorrectly.

    Yes, I said it. I talk to myself as I post on these threads.

    :pain10:

    LOL...I'm so glad you feel me cause' I thought I was losing my mind. :blob7:


    Maybe it's the amodimethicone seeping into our brains.... :idea1:
  • pammiecurlpammiecurl Posts: 93Registered Users
    Shamrocked wrote: »
    pammiecurl wrote: »


    ITA!! I am glad you guys cleared that up. I thought the thread had said something about being soluble in the bottle, but I didn't post earlier because when I started typing it in I thought "no, fran, you must be crazy, why would they want to make it soluble only in the bottle???" so I didn't post that because I thought that I was surely remembering incorrectly.

    Yes, I said it. I talk to myself as I post on these threads.

    :pain10:

    LOL...I'm so glad you feel me cause' I thought I was losing my mind. :blob7:


    Maybe it's the amodimethicone seeping into our brains.... :idea1:

    LOL.....no doubt, lol!!!
  • Riot CrrlRiot Crrl Posts: 3,135Registered Users
    It makes sense, I promise. It's water dispersable in the bottle. Where it is combined with the other ingredient, and water. When you pour it on a surface, such as hair, the water evaporates and the cone dries into a film. Now
    it's not water soluble.

    The other thing I'm given to understand about these cones (amine-functionalized which includes both amodimethicone and bis-aminopropyl dimethicone) is that they will only form an extremely thin layer and not build up. Once on the hair, they will then repel other amine-functionalized cones from being able to build up.

    I don't think they do the same for non-amine-functionalized cones though, so if you are adding other cones then bets are off.
  • jillipoojillipoo Posts: 3,795Registered Users
    Shamrocked wrote: »
    soluble or not, I think some university should give us an honorary degree in chemistry for all the research/reading we do on ingredients!

    :wink:

    Hear, hear!
    3a and strictly CG since August 2007. Porous and on the fine side. No to magnesium sulfate and glycerin. Yes to protein! Favorites:
    CO-WASHES: Suave Coconut
    CONDITIONERS and LEAVE-INS: Mop Top Daily Conditioner, KBB Nectar, Aubrey GPB or Island Naturals, Robert Craig, Any Jessicurl
    CURL ENHANCERS/CREMES/MOUSSES: KCCC, JoiWhip
    GELS: Fuzzy Duck, B5 Design, MGA Scultping, BRHG


    Fotki password: chuckle
    Blog: /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fjillipoo.blogspot.com%2F" class="Popup
    Twitter: nopoojillipoo
  • amy51373amy51373 Posts: 1,204Registered Users
    Riot Crrl wrote: »
    It makes sense, I promise. It's water dispersable in the bottle. Where it is combined with the other ingredient, and water. When you pour it on a surface, such as hair, the water evaporates and the cone dries into a film. Now
    it's not water soluble.

    Now that does make sense. I'd always wondered about the whole soluble in the bottle but not in the hair thing too.
    Riot Crrl wrote: »
    The other thing I'm given to understand about these cones (amine-functionalized which includes both amodimethicone and bis-aminopropyl dimethicone) is that they will only form an extremely thin layer and not build up. Once on the hair, they will then repel other amine-functionalized cones from being able to build up.

    I don't think they do the same for non-amine-functionalized cones though, so if you are adding other cones then bets are off.

    That's what I understood about amodimethicone too from reading other info here. I use this cone and dimethicone and that's about the only ones I can use without any trouble. I won't use the C-Cones anymore at all because they do give me trouble.
    mostly 3a/fine/high porosity/low density
    Cleanse: Bosley shampoo and conditioner
    Stylers: Boots Curl Cream, Uncle Funky's Daughter, Curl Keeper
    Gels: Volumax, Biolage, EcoStyler, BRHG
    Shea butter to scrunch out the crunch and seal
    Modified CG since Feb 2008
  • pammiecurlpammiecurl Posts: 93Registered Users
    Riot Crrl wrote: »
    It makes sense, I promise. It's water dispersable in the bottle. Where it is combined with the other ingredient, and water. When you pour it on a surface, such as hair, the water evaporates and the cone dries into a film. Now
    it's not water soluble.

    The other thing I'm given to understand about these cones (amine-functionalized which includes both amodimethicone and bis-aminopropyl dimethicone) is that they will only form an extremely thin layer and not build up. Once on the hair, they will then repel other amine-functionalized cones from being able to build up.

    I don't think they do the same for non-amine-functionalized cones though, so if you are adding other cones then bets are off.

    Thanks for the clarification, Riot Crrl. That was such a fabulous way that you broke it down for our understanding. I appreciate that. You're an :angel8:.
  • FrizzBgoneFrizzBgone Posts: 2,678Registered Users
    The only cones I won't use now are the xane cones. I won't buy products that have cones up near the top of the list or multiple cones in the product. If there is one cone and it is mid to bottom on the ingredient list, I'll use them occasionally.
    I try not to use a cone product two days in a row. With my arsenal of products, that isn't difficult.
    When I realized that so many of them can be removed with cocobetaine (something found in almost all conditioners ... even [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/Jessicurl-Hair-Cleansing-Cream-p-103.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=jessicurl-hair-cleansing-cream]Jessicurl's HCC[/buylink] has it), I lightened up on the cones. I haven't had a problem with build up since I amended my hair rules!
    Type: 3a fine & dense,with normal porosity, terrible product junkie
    ROUTINE: LI, enhancer, gel, plop with Curlease towel, serum product (either CIAB or Gel-les'c), clip & diffuse.
    Too many favourite products to list ... I finally have my routine that works and alot of products to choose from. My product stash is huge, but well loved !!!
  • Riot CrrlRiot Crrl Posts: 3,135Registered Users
    FrizzBGone, I think I may go your way at some future time too. I'm already slack about PEG, etc. but not quite ready for amodimethicone.

    The only reason I'm still as strict as I am I think, is because I spent so many years with so many cones on my hair that I had no earthly idea what my hair was really even like. I didn't know it was curly, that's for sure.

    Once they were all off and I saw how different my hair was, I've just been clinging to that for the most part. Eventually my comfort level will probably rise back up enough to try some more cones, but this time I will be more attuned to which ones and how much and what effect they may be having.
  • CurlyJaneyCurlyJaney Posts: 25Registered Users
    Another great thread!

    Trideceth-12 and Cetrimonium Chloride are the 2 ingredients that when (both are) combined w/ Amodimethicone make it water-soluble in the bottle.

    Apparently, Dimethicone Copolyol is water-soluble, but Dimethicone alone is not. (<--- But probably makes a very thin layer, as a previous poster mentioned.)

    Hmmm... I have so much experimenting to do! Just wish I worked less so I didn't have to experiment on workdays. LOL

    Thanks for all the info, ladies, and Fran -- that was really funny about your talking to yourself when posting! I always do. (Plus the smilies were perfect!)

    :flower:
    Hair type 3a, fine, nape-of-neck length, layered (had it cut right before discovering naturallycurly.com LOL)

    :happy7:

    Started CG 7/7/08, currently using:
    • DevaCare NoPoo 3-4x/week
    • Trader Joe's Refresh Conditioner as co-wash
    • DevaCare One Condition
    • BioInfusion Hydrating Conditioning Balm as a deep cond. 1-2x/week
    • Fruit of the Earth Aloe Vera
    • DevaCare ArcAngell
    • DevaCurl Set It Free
  • xcptnlxcptnl Posts: 15,678Registered Users
    FrizzBgone wrote: »
    The only cones I won't use now are the xane cones. I won't buy products that have cones up near the top of the list or multiple cones in the product. If there is one cone and it is mid to bottom on the ingredient list, I'll use them occasionally.
    I try not to use a cone product two days in a row. With my arsenal of products, that isn't difficult.
    When I realized that so many of them can be removed with cocobetaine (something found in almost all conditioners ... even [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/Jessicurl-Hair-Cleansing-Cream-p-103.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=jessicurl-hair-cleansing-cream]Jessicurl's HCC[/buylink] has it), I lightened up on the cones. I haven't had a problem with build up since I amended my hair rules!

    Yep - that is how I feel as well.
    Central Massachusetts

    One good reason to only maintain a small circle of friends is that three out of four murders are committed by people who know the victim. ~George Carlin~

    In regards to Vagazzling: They just want to get into the goods without worrying about getting scratched up by fake crystals. ~spring1onu~
  • CandipooxxCandipooxx Posts: 31Registered Users
    Im using Hair One for dry hair and just noticed it had Amodimethicone in it. I thought I was on a no silicone routine! Why would they make a conditioning cleanser with this in it? You'd think they'd realize that a person using a cleansing conditioner with no sulfates would have a hard time getting cones out. Uggh!
    :blob4:13 years of extreme hair damage. Started CG routine April 2010, no sulfates, no cones.
    Mostly 2c , bits of 3a

    *Products i'm currently using:
    Wash- Chagrin Valley shampoo bars
    Cowash- Suave Naturals coconut or Vo5 moisture milk
    Rinse- ...currently looking for a good one!
    Leave in- Tresemme Naturals moisture or Nature's Gate jojoba conditioner
    Stylers- FOTE, Proclaim crystal ice, LA Looks sports gel, Plopping!

    **Still experimenting looking for that perfect set of products.**
  • mell_152mell_152 Posts: 90Registered Users
    how come some products with amodimethicone are listed as silicone free? this was the latest one i found...

    LaCoupe Intensive Repair Replenish Hydrating Masque - NaturallyCurly.com
    Just starting CG (04/18/13)
    2C/3A hair, medium texture, normal porosity (I think!)
    Trying out: Suave Naturals wild strawberry (co-wash) Garnier Fructis Pure and Clean fortifying conditioner, Redken crystal curls 6, Live Clean Argan Oil Treatment, Pantene curl shaping gel
    Thinking of trying: Live Clean Argan oil conditioner or Live Clean Bali Oil conditioner....who recommends them?
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    User error or ingredients changed? There are 7800 entries in that section, bound to be a few mistakes.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • mell_152mell_152 Posts: 90Registered Users
    lol ok, understandable, just making sure there was nothing special about it i wasn't aware of :)
    Just starting CG (04/18/13)
    2C/3A hair, medium texture, normal porosity (I think!)
    Trying out: Suave Naturals wild strawberry (co-wash) Garnier Fructis Pure and Clean fortifying conditioner, Redken crystal curls 6, Live Clean Argan Oil Treatment, Pantene curl shaping gel
    Thinking of trying: Live Clean Argan oil conditioner or Live Clean Bali Oil conditioner....who recommends them?
  • rbbrbb Posts: 4,086Registered Users Curl Dabbler
    it is a cone so any product with it is not cone-free. however, the thing about amodimethicone is that, unlike other cones, it resists build up.

    3a, some 2c & 3b, medium texture, porosity normal, low elasticity :-(
    washing/cowashing, conditioning, protein tx: curl junkie products
    leave in:cj conditioners and treatments as leave in
    styling: cj aloe fix gel, cj pattern pusha, cj honey butta leave in, cj cccc, cj ciab.
    sealants - jane carter nourish & shine
  • mell_152mell_152 Posts: 90Registered Users
    so, can you use products with it even if you are co-washing?
    Just starting CG (04/18/13)
    2C/3A hair, medium texture, normal porosity (I think!)
    Trying out: Suave Naturals wild strawberry (co-wash) Garnier Fructis Pure and Clean fortifying conditioner, Redken crystal curls 6, Live Clean Argan Oil Treatment, Pantene curl shaping gel
    Thinking of trying: Live Clean Argan oil conditioner or Live Clean Bali Oil conditioner....who recommends them?
  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    No. It's still not water soluble, so it does require at least a low-poo with coco betaine to remove. But after it first deposits, amodimethicone repels itself, which is what prevents build up. There's a very good Curl Chemist article about it.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    3a/f/iii
    Modified CG since 11/5/11
    CLEANSE: CJ Daily Fix, DevaCare No-Poo, CHS Treatment Shampoo
    RO: SS Caitlin's Conditioner, CJ Beauticurls Strengthening
    LI: SS Repairing Protein Treatment, CHS Silk Leave-In
    STYLE: Re:Coil, Curl Keeper, Deva Ultra Defining Gel, Curls Rock Amplifier,Sweet Curls Elixirs Okra Gel and Hard Hold Gel, SS Curl Enhancing Jelly and Firm Hold Gel
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    I find most of those reviews are listed as "cone free" as log as they have no more than a water soluble cone.

    As stated above, a-cone repels build-up, but it needs to be low-pooed out.

    Hth! I know this site can be overwhelming if you are new, or even just new to some areas!
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
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