Why are you voting for Obama?

susancnwsusancnw Posts: 1,374Registered Users Curl Novice
I sort of asked this question before and haven't gotten an answer, so it's a whole new thread. He's charismatic, smart, a good speaker. I'd honestly like to know why people are planning to vote for him.

Couple of rules. You cannot direct me to his website, speeches, etc as I can read. I want to know WHY you are voting for him. Real, solid answers. As you can tell from my signature line, I don't care for any of them.

However, I like McCain's stand on national security. I think he will protect my family. That is one of the things I like best about Bush. There is no doubt in my mind that he'll protect my family and I have entrusted him with their safety. And they are more important to me than anything else.
My son wears combat boots (and a parachute). So does my son-in-law.
The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.

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Comments

  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,258Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I'm more voting against McCain, than for Obama. McCain will keep us at war for a long time, and he's anti-woman in his voting record. I can't vote for misogynists.
  • ninja dogninja dog Posts: 23,780Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I'm a democrat, so I'm supporting the party.

    And I agree with RCW about McCain's stance on women.
  • Riot CrrlRiot Crrl Posts: 3,135Registered Users
    While the issues most important to me are not 100% in line with Obama's positions, they were moreso than with any other candidate. It's that simple.
  • a.l.i.c.e.a.l.i.c.e. Posts: 673Registered Users
    I am going to try to keep this from getting too long. I know no one wants to listen to a political rant, but I do think it's good when people can give clear reasons for why they are voting for a certain candidate.

    I am a conservative Christian. I have always voted Republican in the past, and I voted for Bush twice
    (:sad8:), but after a good bit of contemplation, I have come to realize that many political stances taken by the Republican party are not necessarily in line with my beliefs as a Christian. I feel like because of the issue of abortion (which, granted, is a very important issue to me), the religious right has married the Republican part (granted, I am not your typical conservative Christian), which in my opinion is a grave mistake.

    In my opinion, some reasons I am supporting Obama include, his strong stance on civil rights and helping those in poverty, his position against the war (I believe strongly in protecting our country, but I believe it is pretty clear at this point--although it took me a long time to accept it--that this war was not started for the right reasons), his position on energy and protecting the environment, his support of birth control and women's health issues (although I am against abortion for reasons other than the mother's health). I also think that Obama's positions on war and the death penalty place a strong value on the sanctity of human life.

    Ok, my LONG email is over, and I know you said not to direct you to Obama's website, but I do want to point you to an article by Garrison Keillor (not on Obama's website), which is beautifully written no matter who you are supporting.
    The complete article can be viewed at:
    http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-oped0612keillorjun12,0,6839089.column

    Also, I hate political fighting. I know sometimes in email/message boards sometimes things come across harshly, so I just wanted to say these are just my opinions. I hope they helped explain my position, without alienating anyone else on the board. I still like you all, even if you support Ron Paul. :tongue5:
    botticelli-ish bob.

    Current Routine:
    -Suave Aloe & Waterlily cowash/leave-in
    -Giovanni Direct Leave-In
    -FOTE aloe vera gel
  • eche428eche428 Posts: 2,782Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I'm not registered for a particular party. I am very much a liberal socially but a moderate fiscally. I tend to vote more Democratic but would have voted for McCain had he won the nomination against Bush. The man has changed!

    That said I will happily vote for Obama and against McCain for these reasons:

    I am completely against this war and truly believe that McCain will do anything to keep it going. I don't know if it's because it's in his blood or if it's a diversion tactic but I know he's the wrong man to get us out of this war.

    I think Obama sincerely wants good things for all Americans not just his rich cronies. I think he really sees people, all people, as having potential and that if we all are doing better our whole country will do better. I do NOT see that attitude from McCain.

    I see Obama as a hope-filled candidate. I think he has a lot of the qualities of politicians from the 60's and 70's. He sees possibilities and good not war and destruction. McCain seems so negative in his world view. He comes across like a crochity old man, angry, grumpy, shake-your-fist-at-the-world, Git-Off-A-My-Property type of person. We are in a global economy and I think we need leaders who are willing and able to talk with and work with the rest of the world to further all our goals not just his/Republican goals.

    I don't think McCain will make us safer from terrorism. I think exactly the opposite. In my mind he's a hot head and a born warrior. How will he help us? I don't want to see any more young Americans killed and maimed for Bush's war on Iraq or his war on terror. I really believe McCain will "stay the course".

    I am appalled that McCain will not support our troops when they come home and need medical/mental health care. How horrible and cruel can you be to expect a person to sacrifice what these brave people do and not give them any and all help they need when they come home? Unconscionable!

    Obama clearly loves and respects his wife. McCain does not.

    I could go on and on. I know this ended up being more about what I don't like in McCain than what I like in Obama. I just see hope, sincerity and intelligence in Obama that is clearly lacking in McCain. So I'm voting against McCain as much as I'm voting for Obama.
    < member since 2006 (no idea where 1969 came from :toothy10:).

    [FONT=&quot]Med/high porosity; color treated; med [FONT=&quot]d[/FONT]ensity 2c/3a.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Summer: (high dew point) co-wash [FONT=&quot]& leave-in [/FONT]Matrix Biolage Cleansing Conditioner for Curly Hair[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]Ouidad Climate Control Heat & Humidity Gel.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Spring and Fall: (perfect dew point) co-wash & leave-in Curl Junkie Repair Me! or [FONT=&quot]CJ [/FONT]BeautiCurls Strengthening Hair Conditioner; f[FONT=&quot]ollo[/FONT]wed by [FONT=&quot]CJ Pattern Pusha & [/FONT]Curl Queen.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] W[/FONT]inter: (low dew point) add in [FONT=&quot]CJ [/FONT]Coffee-Coco Curl Creme Lite[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT]
  • a.l.i.c.e.a.l.i.c.e. Posts: 673Registered Users
    eche428 wrote: »
    I think Obama sincerely wants good things for all Americans not just his rich cronies. I think he really sees people, all people, as having potential and that if we all are doing better our whole country will do better. I do NOT see that attitude from McCain.

    I see Obama as a hope-filled candidate. I think he has a lot of the qualities of politicians from the 60's and 70's. He sees possibilities and good not war and destruction. McCain seems so negative in his world view. He comes across like a crochity old man, angry, grumpy, shake-your-fist-at-the-world, Git-Off-A-My-Property type of person. We are in a global economy and I think we need leaders who are willing and able to talk with and work with the rest of the world to further all our goals not just his/Republican goals.

    You said these things better than I could.:toothy7:
    botticelli-ish bob.

    Current Routine:
    -Suave Aloe & Waterlily cowash/leave-in
    -Giovanni Direct Leave-In
    -FOTE aloe vera gel
  • KookyCurlKookyCurl Posts: 1,980Registered Users
    Because I believe in him. He inspires me like no presidential candidate has in my life (or any candidate for anything really). I believe he's a man of integrity and decency. I appreciate how he has run his campaign. He doesn't shove false patriotism down my throat. I believe he stands for all Americans and has a vision of this country's potential and wants to do what he can to ensure that we live up to it instead of failing miserably. Do I agree with all of his policies? No. But I never expect to agree with any candidates policies completely.

    I also like that he recognizes that the President is not supreme commander of the people. He is part of a government that is meant to work with Congress and the courts and is ultimately accountable to the people. I trust him to make fair, informed decisions for this country. His "youth" and "inexperience" are often cited as liabilities. I find them great advantages.
  • UsodaUsoda Posts: 918Registered Users
    I won't vote for a bigot, period.

    McCain stands by the Republican-lauded discrimination of people of sexual orientations (other than hetero-).

    In addition, as others have alluded to, McCain is extremely hateful towards women. It's on record that he called his wife a c*nt in public. I'll post a link to that article, if you're interested. He's also said so pretty low things about Hillary Clinton as well. Real classy guy.

    Finally, he is extremely anti-POW despite the fact he himself is a POW (Hanoi Hilton) :sad8: This anguishes me plenty since I have a lot of family members who are veterans (including Vietnam-era) and including my SO.

    As an afterthought, I have to say also I would never vote for anyone who didn't uphold women's rights to their body. I don't know McCain's exact stance on this, but as a Rep. I can't imagine it's one I'd be in line with.
  • UsodaUsoda Posts: 918Registered Users
    I should have listed this first but one of the most important issues to me right now is health care. McCain's health care stances are very weak. He literally opposes federally-funded health care for all. This bewilders me: we're a super power and we've spent literally trillions on this war. But we're letting our own citizens die of medical problems because they can't afford the absurdly inflated medical costs of treatment. It's abhorrent. I am so thankful Obama recognizes these problems and wants and can do something about them.
  • susancnwsusancnw Posts: 1,374Registered Users Curl Novice
    Thanks for replies. I appreciate thoughtful ones. But if it is the same ol' "Obama's not Bush or he's not a Republican", I can't buy that one. I also wouldn't buy it from someone saying they are voting for McCain because he is not Hillary/Obama.

    >> I am appalled that McCain will not support our troops when they come home and need medical/mental health care.>>

    Where have you seen that? I was following that carefully because of my son(s) and looked at McCain's reasons for voting against it.

    How will McCain keep us at war indefinitely?

    I need more details though. "His stance on such and such'. Explain it to me. Act as if I am newly arrived, my first presidential election and I need it spelled out for me. (and no wise cracks from the Peanut Gallery!:wink:) How will these things be paid for?


    >. Obama clearly loves and respects his wife. McCain does not.>>

    Again, point me to what specifically gives you that impression. And it is an impression.

    >> His "youth" and "inexperience" are often cited as liabilities>>

    His inexperience is something that bothers me tremendously. He was in national office for roughly 150 days and began running for president. How did 15 years in the state legislature prepare him to running our nation? I can't tell that he has any 'real world' experience, other than as a political activist. I believe he was a law professor for a while? Again, cloistered environment.

    Federally funded health care. Where will the money come from? I've been following UK papers to learn how the NHS deals with Chronic pain and terminal diseases...they are refusing a lot of care and medicines. If you are refused a certain cancer drug for instance. What if you can pay for it out of pocket? Then you have to pay for ALL your cancer treatments. Health insurance is of great interest to me. I finally have it again after several years without it. I had to find a doctor who would work with me on medications and visits. I had to look, but I have been able to find one in every town we have lived in.


    I read a Wall Street Journal article that was questioning if Walmart will be the one to solve the health care question. They've brought down the prices on a huge number of generic drugs and other stores have followed suit. They are experimenting with clinics in some retail locations. So is Target. The free market can work for health care. There was a point in my lifetime where health insurance wasn't expected to cover everything. It didn't when I was a kid. But thanks to HMOs in part, it has become more expensive to visit a dr. I've done my homework when it comes to doctors, talked to them and the office and worked with them. My husband has been covered by my insurance for a whole 18 months at work. He is self-employed and it is priced out of reach, except for accident insurance, which is the only reason we need it. My BP and cholesterol meds are not cheap, so I get them from the Mfr. You have to qualify, but it is pretty decent so I can get them that way. I am changing doctors soon (love my dr., despise the office management) and plan to discuss the generic option with him/her.

    I appreciate the replies but I don't see anyone telling me the solutions and answers that Obama offers. I see 'he offers me hope', but not why.


    I would also like to see the links to the articles about McCain. I'd like to see any links you can provide on either of them, other than the campaign site.

    I read Keillor's piece (the man sure can write) and I see him pulling up the race card. Other than that bit, I don't see anything other than Obama is a good speaker (I don't think he rises to the level of earlier ones like Garrison does, but I've not heard anyone in ages who does). Okay, good command of English language. Good idea for any politician. (and not a bad one for the rest of us).
    My son wears combat boots (and a parachute). So does my son-in-law.
    The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
    Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
    Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.

    s-event.png

  • susancnwsusancnw Posts: 1,374Registered Users Curl Novice
    As I read back, I am also seeing a lot of touchy, feely stuff. I know that as women we are wired for that more than men, and there are acceptions. But I want to see hard, sound reasoning also. I know that there are a lot of bright, articulate women here (in fact, I've only run into a couple that are not, but they are awfully young) so I want to see that reasoning.

    Oh yeah, and where is a link to McCain's "anti-POW stance".
    My son wears combat boots (and a parachute). So does my son-in-law.
    The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
    Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
    Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.

    s-event.png

  • Riot CrrlRiot Crrl Posts: 3,135Registered Users
    Well, I was not one who said anything about McCain, but if you would like anything in my post about my agenda being most in line with Obama's clarified I'd be happy to.
  • eche428eche428 Posts: 2,782Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I don't think you are interested in what we think and certainly don't "really appreciate our responses." You want to vote for McCain it's your vote.
    < member since 2006 (no idea where 1969 came from :toothy10:).

    [FONT=&quot]Med/high porosity; color treated; med [FONT=&quot]d[/FONT]ensity 2c/3a.[/FONT]

    [FONT=&quot]Summer: (high dew point) co-wash [FONT=&quot]& leave-in [/FONT]Matrix Biolage Cleansing Conditioner for Curly Hair[FONT=&quot]. [/FONT]Ouidad Climate Control Heat & Humidity Gel.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] Spring and Fall: (perfect dew point) co-wash & leave-in Curl Junkie Repair Me! or [FONT=&quot]CJ [/FONT]BeautiCurls Strengthening Hair Conditioner; f[FONT=&quot]ollo[/FONT]wed by [FONT=&quot]CJ Pattern Pusha & [/FONT]Curl Queen.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][FONT=&quot] W[/FONT]inter: (low dew point) add in [FONT=&quot]CJ [/FONT]Coffee-Coco Curl Creme Lite[FONT=&quot].[/FONT][/FONT]
  • StephSStephS Posts: 352Registered Users
    Here is a link about how McCain has spoken to his wife in the past:

    http://www.drudge.com/news/106692/author-mccain-called-wife-****-trollop

    Also, didn't he leave his former wife, Carol, who was disfigured after an auto accident? He came home from Nam in 1969 and was allegedly "appalled" by her appearance. He had many extramarital affairs over the next ten years, then dumped Carol for the wealthy Cindy.

    Of course people get divorced and remarry all the time, so take that as you like it. Kinda leaves a nasty taste in my mouth, though.

    My main beef with McCain is that back in 1999, he was supportive of women's rights. Here is his direct quote:
    "I'd love to see a point where (Roe vs. Wade) is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal Roe vs. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to (undergo) illegal and dangerous operations."
    On “Meet the Press” in 2000, McCain repeatedly told host Tim Russert that he supported a Constitutional ban on all abortions.

    I guess he was just confused?

    I think the poster that said McCain didn't support the troops meant that he has notoriously voted down benefits for them (medical and education after service). You have a military son - doesn't he deserve continuous, quality healthcare in return for his services? What about furthering his education once he completes service? The GI bill from days past was a great thing! Why would McCain vote against those benefits?

    As for experience, Barack may not have served in the senate for very long, but combine that federal service with his state service and he has 10 years (not counting his local community service). It's a good thing for a candidate to understand both state and federal government. To top that off, he used to teach Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago, so to me this says he knows how our government is supposed to work. Barack displays good leadership and judgment, and that also helps his "lack" of experience. I also like the fact that Barack comes from middle class, and can be in touch with our concerns. Because you practially have to be a multi-millionaire to run for office anymore, most of our politicians are silver spoons who are very out of touch with us regular folk. Much easier to let the lobbyists lead their way, and we all know the story from there. (And that is an all-over issue, not sided to Dem or Rep - both sides are at fault for this) At least Barack makes an honest effort at not cavorting with the lobbyists.

    All the "touchy-feely" responses prove that Obama can rally people and get things done. You know who else posessed this superb trait? Ronald Reagan!

    Here is the breakdown on healthcare:

    McCain: $2,500 refundable tax credit for individuals, $5,000 for families, to make health insurance more affordable. No mandate for universal coverage. In gaining the tax credit, workers could not deduct the portion of their workplace health insurance paid by their employers.

    Obama: Mandatory coverage for children, no mandate for adults. Aim for universal coverage by requiring employers to share costs of insuring workers and by offering coverage similar to that in plan for federal employees. Says package would cost up to $65 billion a year after unspecified savings from making system more efficient. Raise taxes on wealthier families to pay the cost (this means eliminate the Bush Tax Cuts for incomes OVER $250K).

    My thoughts on healthcare is that the same quality care is needed for all, regardless of income. I also don't believe that letting the markets control health care is a good idea - I mean, isn't that what we have NOW? How is everyone faring? Although I think doctors and other healthcare workers should receive salaries that reflect their dedication and work, I do not believe that healthcare should be a for-profit industry, simply due to the fact that consumers' health and lives are at stake. For-profit companies answer to shareholders, NOT to consumers. Thus the highly corrupt pharmaceutical industry which routinely pays doctors to endorse improperly researched medications, and of course the insurance industry - who can dump long-paying consumers at will for simply seeking treatment for common ailments.


    This has to be my longest post since I joined. I'll stop here for now.
  • CurlyGina2CurlyGina2 Posts: 1,048Registered Users
    I think Obama sincerely wants good things for all
    Americans not just his rich cronies. I think he really s
    ees people, all people, as having potential and that if we all are doing better our whole country will do better. I do NOT see that attitude from McCain.


    This. I really don't know if he will win, but he is the first candidate that I will max out a donation to, and I am certainly voting for him.
  • GabbylkpGabbylkp Posts: 197Registered Users
    .........
    Dwight Schrute: [pushing Michael's face into the wet cement] Force it in as deep as you can. Michael Scott: That's what she said.
  • susancnwsusancnw Posts: 1,374Registered Users Curl Novice
    eche428 wrote: »
    I don't think you are interested in what we think and certainly don't "really appreciate our responses." You want to vote for McCain it's your vote.

    Yes it is my vote and I am picky about whom I choose. That is why I am researching both of them, but I wanted to hear from someone who is actually going to vote for him and I'm not crazy about either of them (as my sig line indicates). I do appreciate them. If Barr (Libertarian) had the slightest bit of a chance, I'd probably vote for him.
    My son wears combat boots (and a parachute). So does my son-in-law.
    The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
    Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
    Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.

    s-event.png

  • susancnwsusancnw Posts: 1,374Registered Users Curl Novice
    StephS wrote: »
    Here is a link about how McCain has spoken to his wife in the past:

    http://www.drudge.com/news/106692/author-mccain-called-wife-****-trollop

    The link is actually a claim by an author. Is it backed up by any witnesses? I'm not excusing him at all...Cindy should have smacked the hell out of him.

    Yes, I read that he left his first wife. Again, no one knows the circumstances..I can't figure out why Hillary hasn't left Bill! McCain hasn't discussed it, which I find admirable, no matter who was in the right or wrong.


    Also, didn't he leave his former wife, Carol, who was disfigured after an auto accident? He came home from Nam in 1969 and was allegedly "appalled" by her appearance. He had many extramarital affairs over the next ten years, then dumped Carol for the wealthy Cindy.

    Of course people get divorced and remarry all the time, so take that as you like it. Kinda leaves a nasty taste in my mouth, though.

    My main beef with McCain is that back in 1999, he was supportive of women's rights. Here is his direct quote:
    "I'd love to see a point where (Roe vs. Wade) is irrelevant, and could be repealed because abortion is no longer necessary. But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal Roe vs. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to (undergo) illegal and dangerous operations."
    On “Meet the Press” in 2000, McCain repeatedly told host Tim Russert that he supported a Constitutional ban on all abortions.

    I guess he was just confused?

    Not allowed to change his mind? I was in favor of a Constitution ban on abortions at one time. In my 30s, I found out that I had an aunt that I never knew about. She died of a botched abortion in the 40s...pregnant by a lover while her husband was overseas. It killed her and I didn't know her name or that she existed until I was in my 30s.

    I think the poster that said McCain didn't support the troops meant that he has notoriously voted down benefits for them (medical and education after service). You have a military son - doesn't he deserve continuous, quality healthcare in return for his services? What about furthering his education once he completes service? The GI bill from days past was a great thing! Why would McCain vote against those benefits?

    Normally I would consider my son's service not a factor in this discussion, but we have talked recently and he'll be voting for McCain. Like me, he'd vote Libertarian if there was a chance. McCain voted against it as it offered the same benefits to short-timers as it did long term. It did not allow for increased benefits for increased service. And if someone makes a career out of the service as my son is planning to and as friends have, then they deserve more. (I also think they should never have to pay taxes again, but that's a different thread)

    As for experience, Barack may not have served in the senate for very long, but combine that federal service with his state service and he has 10 years (not counting his local community service). It's a good thing for a candidate to understand both state and federal government. To top that off, he used to teach Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago, so to me this says he knows how our government is supposed to work. Barack displays good leadership and judgment, and that also helps his "lack" of experience. I also like the fact that Barack comes from middle class, and can be in touch with our concerns. Because you practially have to be a multi-millionaire to run for office anymore, most of our politicians are silver spoons who are very out of touch with us regular folk. Much easier to let the lobbyists lead their way, and we all know the story from there. (And that is an all-over issue, not sided to Dem or Rep - both sides are at fault for this) At least Barack makes an honest effort at not cavorting with the lobbyists.

    Could be, but if you want to look back at his state service, you also see that he was in bed with the Chicago Democrat machine and that one has been questionable for a very long time. I am not impressed by the people that he has chosen to associate with in those days also. That shows me a lack of judgment. He chose to throw Rev Wright under the bus. He went to that church for 20 years, took counsel from Wright, etc. That does not show good judgment. But McCain has also shown poor judgment.

    All the "touchy-feely" responses prove that Obama can rally people and get things done. You know who else posessed this superb trait? Ronald Reagan!

    Yes, he did. And there is not comparison.

    Here is the breakdown on healthcare:

    McCain: $2,500 refundable tax credit for individuals, $5,000 for families, to make health insurance more affordable. No mandate for universal coverage. In gaining the tax credit, workers could not deduct the portion of their workplace health insurance paid by their employers.

    Obama: Mandatory coverage for children, no mandate for adults. Aim for universal coverage by requiring employers to share costs of insuring workers and by offering coverage similar to that in plan for federal employees. Do you have any idea how good the federal employees have it? That mandate would mean that a lot of small businesses couldn't afford to have employees. I can think of several businesses off the top of my head that would probably shut down or drastically cut back. Which would also affect the employees, local economy, etc. Says package would cost up to $65 billion a year after unspecified savings from making system more efficient. Raise taxes on wealthier families to pay the cost (this means eliminate the Bush Tax Cuts for incomes OVER $250K). Both of his suggestions would mean that those who help generate new jobs, new hires, etc would have to cut back on new hires and new jobs. They would be forced to provide insurance that is outrageously expensive. And you'd better believe that if the company didn't pay at least half, there would be legislation mandating that they do. This nation's economy is more dependent on small businesses than anything else. It generates jobs, income, keeps the economy going. And by penalizing those people, you penalize all of us. The economic slowdown has been real, but the economy has continued to grow. That growth has slowed, but the last two quarters show that there has been growth. Maybe the rampant consumerism is finally slowing down (I want to be a rampant consumer!)

    My thoughts on healthcare is that the same quality care is needed for all, regardless of income. I also don't believe that letting the markets control health care is a good idea - I mean, isn't that what we have NOW? How is everyone faring? Although I think doctors and other healthcare workers should receive salaries that reflect their dedication and work, I do not believe that healthcare should be a for-profit industry, simply due to the fact that consumers' health and lives are at stake. For-profit companies answer to shareholders, NOT to consumers. Thus the highly corrupt pharmaceutical industry which routinely pays doctors to endorse improperly researched medications, and of course the insurance industry - who can dump long-paying consumers at will for simply seeking treatment for common ailments.

    Define 'common ailments'. It is hard to find, but healthcare in this nation is available. It might take a long time to pay off, it might discourage some from seeking care until it is too late, but that is a personal decision and personal responsibility. Took my mom about a year to pay off the final bills from my dad's cancer. And he had insurance. Our insurance tried to soak us for an additional $3K for my son's heart surgery at 5 months. I had to send in the surgeon's report 3 times before someone read the whole thing and realized there were 2 pacemaker wires for a 5 day period.

    I read daily in the UK/Canadian papers about patients being refused medication for various reasons, so it is not just a US issue. For instance, in the UK if you try to pay out of pocket for a medication that is not covered, you have to pay for the entire treatment program. There IS not out of pocket alternative. And I agree, turning for profit was a bad idea. OTOH, having the government making ALL decisions about my health care is an even worse idea.


    This has to be my longest post since I joined. I'll stop here for now.

    Thank you. I might not agree with you on all of it, but you provide one hell of an argument. Go to the head of the class.:wink:
    My son wears combat boots (and a parachute). So does my son-in-law.
    The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
    Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
    Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.

    s-event.png

  • susancnwsusancnw Posts: 1,374Registered Users Curl Novice
    Riot Crrl wrote: »
    Well, I was not one who said anything about McCain, but if you would like anything in my post about my agenda being most in line with Obama's clarified I'd be happy to.

    Yes, I'd appreciate it. If I was as OCD as my baby sister is, I'd be putting all this into a spreadsheet...hmm...might do that anyway. It's so slow at work that it would give me something to do.
    My son wears combat boots (and a parachute). So does my son-in-law.
    The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
    Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
    Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.

    s-event.png

  • susancnwsusancnw Posts: 1,374Registered Users Curl Novice
    I will add here that I really appreciate the (generally) civil discourse and discussion here. I knew we could do it.
    My son wears combat boots (and a parachute). So does my son-in-law.
    The older I get, the less patience I have with cleverness. Thomas Sowell.
    Resolve to perform what you ought. Perform without fail what you resolve. Benjamin Franklin.
    Don't go around saying the world owes you a living. The world owes you nothing. It was here first. Mark Twain.

    s-event.png

  • Riot CrrlRiot Crrl Posts: 3,135Registered Users
    susancnw wrote: »
    Riot Crrl wrote: »
    Well, I was not one who said anything about McCain, but if you would like anything in my post about my agenda being most in line with Obama's clarified I'd be happy to.

    Yes, I'd appreciate it. If I was as OCD as my baby sister is, I'd be putting all this into a spreadsheet...hmm...might do that anyway. It's so slow at work that it would give me something to do.

    OK then, here we go.

    Exit plan of Iraq: He has one. I'd prefer a much faster one, but he has one.

    Roe V. Wade: This is important to me, and I think he's pretty OK about keeping it.

    Same sex marriage: This is also important to me. I don't see eye to eye with Obama on it, he doesn't like it. But he has said he believes if it is going to be prohibited, that should only be done at the state level, never federal. So on this one I would rather vote for him at the federal level than a state one.

    Stem cell research: They are just demising in freezers anyway, I don't understand why this is still an argument. We can use them to save lives or we can throw them out.

    I know I left out like nine million issues, but those are a few of my favorites. If curious about one that I missed, feel free to ask.
  • StephSStephS Posts: 352Registered Users
    As far as the healthcare thing - you know - Great Britian and Canada's plans do have problems. They are working to come up with solutions right now. But in my view, they are far beyond us in doing what is fair for the citizens of their society. Even though there are these problems, from all the anecdotal stories I have read, and from all the people I know all over the world, our system is much worse for society as a whole. And we have the best medical technology! So that doesn't make sense at all to me.

    I can see your reasoning behind the concern about our gov't running the healthcare. Due to all the corruption, it would be a big mess. But if we can get the right people in office, and take profit off the table, America can come up with a great public health care system, and with that system we would be able to cut a LOT of current crappy programs and get money from those, as well as getting employers involved. Once profit is taken out, employers would not have to be burdened with skyrocketing costs. Also, MUCH less paperwork would be involved. All of the current healthcare workers could work for the public program instead of Humana, or whatever. So lots jobs would not be lost.

    There are many ideas, of course. There IS a way, but profit has to be taken out before we can find something that works. No one should have to try and find a way to pay 25K for ONE pill that has to be taken once a month (my FIL has to do this). I know a small business owner who was dropped from her plan b/c she had a c-section! They were concerned if she had another child she would need another one, and didn't want to pay. Only in America.
  • StephSStephS Posts: 352Registered Users
    Okay - So McCain changed his mind in favor of overturning Roe v Wade. Not for the greater good, imo, but still.

    Maybe Obama changed his mind about his church once he saw how the public responded to Rev Wright. Perhaps he had been a member for so long that he didn't realize just how polarizing the Rev was until the media took off with it.

    Sometimes, you get immersed into something, and it takes a lot to get the blinders off.

    I am all for being able to change your mind. Only when someone you do not completely agree with does it, someone has to yell, "flip-flopping!" So candidates who have a change of heart cannot win. They now see what others see and make the appropriate change, but then get called out for making the change in the first place.
  • ScarletScarlet Posts: 3,125Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    StephS wrote: »
    And we have the best medical technology! So that doesn't make sense at all to me.

    I

    Yes, we do have the best medical technology. When was the last time you heard of a significant medical or pharmaceutical breakthrough coming out of Canada or Britain?
    The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics - Thomas Sowell
  • StephSStephS Posts: 352Registered Users
    The point is, since we created this great technology, why can't we create a healthcare plan so all citizens have access to this technology?
  • ShrekLoverShrekLover Posts: 2,551Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Good article on Obama. The media seems to give him much more latitude when he changes position than any other politician I can remember.

    http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20080627/news_z1e27krautha.html

    CHARLES KRAUTHAMMER THE WASHINGTON POST
    Obama U-turns toward the center
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    June 27, 2008
    “To be clear: Barack will support a filibuster of any bill that includes retroactive immunity for telecommunications companies.”
    – Obama spokesman Bill Burton
    Oct. 24, 2007
    That was then: Democratic primaries to be won, netroot lefties to be seduced. With all that (and Hillary Clinton) out of the way, Obama now says he'll vote in favor of the new FISA bill that gives the telecom companies blanket immunity for post-Sept. 11, 2001, eavesdropping.
    Back then, in the yesteryear of primary season, he thoroughly trashed the North American Free Trade Agreement, pledging to force a renegotiation, take “the hammer” to Canada and Mexico, and threaten unilateral abrogation.
    Today, the hammer is holstered. Obama calls his previous NAFTA rhetoric “overheated” and essentially endorses what one of his senior economic advisers privately told the Canadians: The anti-trade stuff was nothing more than populist posturing.
    Nor is there much left of his primary season pledge to meet “without preconditions” with Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. There will be “preparations,” you see, which are being spun by his aides into the functional equivalent of preconditions.
    Obama's long march to the center has begun.
    And why not? What's the downside? He won't lose the left, or even mainstream Democrats. They won't stay home on Nov. 4. The anti-Bush, anti-Republican sentiment is simply too strong. Election Day is their day of revenge – for the Florida recount, for Swift-boating, for all the injuries, real and imagined, dealt out by Republicans over the last eight years.
    Normally, flip-flopping presidential candidates have to worry about the press. Not Obama. After all, this is a press corps that heard his grandiloquent Philadelphia speech – designed to rationalize why “I can no more disown (Jeremiah Wright Jr.) than I can disown my white grandmother” – then wiped away a tear and hailed him as the second coming of Abraham Lincoln. Three months later, with Wright disowned, grandma embraced and the great “race speech” now inoperative, not a word of reconsideration is heard from his media acolytes.
    Worry about the press? His FISA flip-flop elicited a few grumbles from lefty bloggers, but hardly a murmur from the mainstream press. Remember his pledge to stick to public financing? Now flush with cash, he is the first general election candidate since Watergate to opt out. Some goo-goo clean-government types chided him, but the mainstream editorialists who for years had been railing against private financing as hopelessly corrupt and corrupting, evinced only the mildest of disappointment.
    Indeed, The New York Times expressed a sympathetic understanding of Obama's about-face by buying his preposterous claim that it was a pre-emptive attack on McCain's 527 independent expenditure groups – notwithstanding the fact that (a) as Politico's Jonathan Martin notes, “there are no serious anti-Obama 527s in existence nor are there any immediate plans to create such a group” and (b) the only independent ad of any consequence now running in the entire country is an AFSCME-MoveOn.org co-production savaging McCain.
    True, Obama's U-turn on public financing was not done for ideological reasons, it was done for Willie Sutton reasons: That's where the money is. It nonetheless betrayed a principle that so many in the press claimed to hold dear.
    As public financing is not a principle dear to me, I am hardly dismayed by Obama's abandonment of it. Nor am I disappointed in the least by his other calculated and cynical repositionings. I have never had any illusions about Obama. I merely note with amazement that his media swooners seem to accept his every policy reversal with an equanimity unseen since the Daily Worker would change the party line overnight – switching sides in World War II, for example – whenever the wind from Moscow changed direction.
    The truth about Obama is uncomplicated. He is just a politician (though of unusual skill and ambition). The man who dared say it plainly is the man who knows Obama all too well. “He does what politicians do,” explained Jeremiah Wright Jr.
    When it's time to throw campaign finance reform, telecom accountability, NAFTA renegotiation or Jeremiah Wright Jr. overboard, Obama is not sentimental. He does not hesitate. He tosses lustily.
    Why, the man even tossed his own grandmother overboard back in Philadelphia – only to haul her back on deck now that her services are needed. Yesterday, granny was the moral equivalent of the raving Rev. Wright. Today, she is a featured prop in Obama's fuzzy-wuzzy get-to-know-me national TV ad.
    Not a flinch. Not a flicker. Not a hint of shame. By the time he's finished, Obama will have made the Clintons look scrupulous.
    Krauthammer can be reached via [email protected].
  • ScarletScarlet Posts: 3,125Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    StephS wrote: »
    The point is, since we created this great technology, why can't we create a healthcare plan so all citizens have access to this technology?

    Because research and development couldn't flourish under a government controlled plan.
    The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics - Thomas Sowell
  • StephSStephS Posts: 352Registered Users
    Perhaps not under our current admin, but otherwise I think it is possible. ANYTHING is possible, when you get the right people together.
  • ScarletScarlet Posts: 3,125Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    "Anything" may be possible, but that's not necessarily a good thing. It's easy to say "well, I don't like George Bush so whatever the next guy does has to be better". If that means having a bureaucrat dictating what healthcare services you receive, where you receive them, and having to wait months to get them... well, forget it. The federal government can't even efficiently run the post office and to me it's scary that so many people are willing to turn over their health and well-being to them.
    The first lesson of economics is scarcity: There is never enough of anything to satisfy all those who want it. The first lesson of politics is to disregard the first lesson of economics - Thomas Sowell
  • Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
    If I vote for Obama, it will be because I think he'll give balance to the Supreme Court. The older judges are more liberal to moderate. When they retire, I'd like to see them replaced with like minded members. I'm concerned about his inexperience and lapses of prudent judgement in a couple of situations.

    If I vote for McCain, it will be because I think he's more practical as it relates to energy. I think we need off-shore or anywhere drilling. I'm concerned that despite a 'go my own way' reputation, he'll say what he feels like he needs to say to win.

    PS: Cindy and John McCain married a month after his divorce from his first wife. There is an insightful and I think fair story about Cindy last week's Newsweek. It says that when they met he was married. Both acknowledge that he was 'in the process' of separating, but not yet separated.
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