His Dark Materials - SPOILERS for whole trilogy
Riot Crrl
Registered Users Posts: 3,135
Well it might just end up being me and ninja dog, but introducing the HDM thread, now with spoiler warning.
I will pose a few discussion questions to get the ball rolling, but of course feel free to add your own!
The main characters' romance: beautiful and touching, or sappy and cringe-inducing?
The way it ended: cruel and unnecessary dramatic contrivance, or the only way?
When one dies, their daemon simply dissipates. But when and how does it materialize in the first place?
In the first movie, they didn't even call it the Church. How does this bode for the other movies? Will the gay angels be cut? What about the death of The Authority?
Are these books really as atheistic as everyone likes to say? Or did it turn out there was a god, and it just wasn't The Authority?
What do you speculate may have been behind the choice of what to call "daemons?"
I will pose a few discussion questions to get the ball rolling, but of course feel free to add your own!
The main characters' romance: beautiful and touching, or sappy and cringe-inducing?
The way it ended: cruel and unnecessary dramatic contrivance, or the only way?
When one dies, their daemon simply dissipates. But when and how does it materialize in the first place?
In the first movie, they didn't even call it the Church. How does this bode for the other movies? Will the gay angels be cut? What about the death of The Authority?
Are these books really as atheistic as everyone likes to say? Or did it turn out there was a god, and it just wasn't The Authority?
What do you speculate may have been behind the choice of what to call "daemons?"
0
Comments
C'mon, readers: put in your two cents!
Just horrible. I was embarrassed for them. I understand how important it was to the story, but couldn't the dialogue have been written a little more... I don't know. Natural? Age-appropriate?
It would have been even better if they died, lol. I'm just kidding. It was the only way. A happy ever after ending would have really made me barf. And I totally buy that only one window could be left open. Dust loss had acheived critical mass after the bomb and the abyss.
I dunno, Dust is drawn to thought and self awareness. Perhaps it is called into being at first breath or somesuch, but is kind of amorphous or can only assume less complex forms until such development stage that sense of self is more solidified.
Only time will tell. I fear for the integrity of the later films.
I thought that there was a true god or whatever you want to call it, and it is Dust. It may not fit the bill for some, because while it is not understood well, its existence is confirmable using various technologies. It is not just a faith-based deal.
I think that Pullman was using irony. I think he knew that the Judeo-Christian connotations of this word are so pervasive that most people would initally associate it negatively. However it's been around longer than that, and its meaning used to range from neutral to benevolent, pretty much. Anything from lesser deities to spirit-guardian type things. I think that the UNIX programmers had the same idea.
When do the daemons first materialize? When one is an infant? If we equate them with souls (a disputed concept, anyway), are we born with them? I find it interesting that historically, humanity formerly believed animals were lesser creatures because of their (alleged) lack of a soul, whereas Pullman uses animals to represent the human soul. Was he mocking that concept, do you think? Considering his inspirations (Paradise Lost, etc.), it would seem so.
(Ideas? Arguments in favor of this idea, or against?)
I read that this painting was also a source of inspiration:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:The_Lady_with_an_Ermine.jpg
(I love paintings of people with animals.)
As to what happens to one's daemon upon death, I'm still working out my feelings about it. If I had a daemon, I would want to be buried with him, presuming he dies with me. But dissipation and harmless disintegration seems to be the method of passing in the series, right? So, the....evaporation of one's daemon is in keeping with the plot, however lonely a fate it appears to us.
Now, the choice of naming the animal form of a human soul a "daemon" is very interesting. Although the common usage of the word implies "devilish," the secondary usage is "guardian spirit." In the manner they appear in the series, daemons play a Freudian role: id and super-ego, primarily. This fascinates me. Who wouldn't want a creature always beside one, ready to act or advise? It's hard for me to stop fantasizing about it: a lion (!) coming with me to the gym, or the library, roaring at people on their cell phones. Or simply lying beside me as I eat or read or type this message. How....divine.
(The dog I mentioned earlier actually did follow me everywhere within the house. That's one of the reasons I miss him so much.)
I don't want the gay angels to be cut. I don't know exactly what Pullman thinks about religion. He claims that simply because a character voiced negativity about religion, it doesn't mean that he agrees. However, there is a very strong anti-religion movement in England right now, and I wonder if he was either influenced by it, or provided influence himself.
Ultimately, though, I have to confess: I think polar bears in armor are totally cool.
From the way that the daemons demise, it seems clear they were never made-o-meat in the first place. I suspect they are amalgamations of Dust, like angels are.
It doesn't seem logical to me that daemons are literally the "soul." The dead do not have them, and when the living chose to visit the world of the dead, their daemons could not enter. The dead (and the living in the world of the dead) could still think and speak, and seemed to have emotions. Perhaps it is simply Dust that the dead no longer need. Implying that daemons are just an external manifestation of what is internal (like they are normally in Will's/our world). This would seem in keeping with the parts of the story about intercision, if we assume that the pain and trauma of intercision is the pain and trauma of no longer being able to collect or generate Dust, which the living require.
Pullman has alternately declared himself an atheist and agnostic, from what I understand. I'm not sure if he actively wishes to demolish all religions, but I'm certain that he regards many evils to have been perpetuated by organized religion over the years, and personally, I cannot argue.
I don't want the angels to be cut either. Actually I wished they had stuck around longer in the books.
I thought that I would be incredibly bored by both the armored bears, and the Mulefa. But I was surprised, by thinking they were both awesome.
I love that idea:daemons are [just] an external manifestation of what is internal. It coincides with the id/super-ego statement I made earlier.
I keep thinking about that.
Do you believe Pullman is copping out, so to speak, by not admitting his lack of belief, in order to keep from alienating readers (or their parents)?
I don't think that's a hypocrisy or betrayal of his non-beliefs. He probably does not believe in flying witches or armored bears, yet his fiction series included those as well.
Far as I know, he's always been pretty outspoken about it. (Though it has seemed to vary between agnostic and atheist.)
I thought the love story was cute, and I was heart-broken by the end. I thought the movie was decent considering the audience. There were already a lot of issues behind it. The whole point of making a movie like that is to have people watch it. If you totally put off your audience, you've missed the target.
And that's my 2 cents worth. I absolutely LOVE the books though! I laughed my a$$ off at the death of the Authority. Tee hee.
I wish I had a daemon... What do you think yours would look like? I think mine would be a cat of some form. Or a monkey! :tongue5:
Products:
9/02/08 Went CG
05/12/09 Still CG. Cowashing with VO5 Lavender Luster. I then condition with Giovanni Smooth as Silk. Styling with VO5 Lavender Luster conditioner with my wide-toothed comb.
http://public.fotki.com/QuirkyYogini/
Ha ha me too!
The quiz said I had an Ocelot... I thought it would be a cat too
What quiz? I must take this quiz! :tongue5:
Products:
9/02/08 Went CG
05/12/09 Still CG. Cowashing with VO5 Lavender Luster. I then condition with Giovanni Smooth as Silk. Styling with VO5 Lavender Luster conditioner with my wide-toothed comb.
http://public.fotki.com/QuirkyYogini/
Who do you like better, Lyra or Will?
If you found a window, and knew there were no ill health effects, would you go?
I hated the movie, and was really annoyed when they didn't even include the whole story and sort of finished it before the ending.
Lyra or Will- cant decide really liked both for different reasons.
Worse parent- hmm tough. Mrs Coulter is evil, and basically abandoned her, but she saves Lyra from being 'cut'. LA has been there her whole life (or at least seen she is provided for), but then murders her friend Roger.
Will or Lyra...well, I'm not sure, I know I liked Lyra better at first, compared to Will and just in general. I liked her so much better before she got all sappy and "oh, Will!" and "oh, Pan!" and just not the same headstrong Lyra anymore. Her progression through the book as a character looked like this to me:
Amusingly, sometimes overly, crazy child who runs around doing whatever she wants to --->
Awesome strong fighter/journey girl --->
Sappy lovestruck child who no longer does much.
*sigh*
...It's a siggie. :shock:
Lord Asriel was the worst parent. At least Mrs Coulter cared by the end...then again, Asriel must've cared, too, to go through will killing Metatron (sp?). I guess that Mrs Coulter was a bit more obvious with her love, which made me sympathise with her more.
Oh I dont know. Juliet was 12 after all.