Spinoff: Racial and ethnic profiling

curlyarcacurlyarca Curl ConnoisseurPosts: 8,449Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
With poll attached. Yeah, I'm pretty pissed about this whole London shooting.

I don't think it works. Best that it does is result in a disproportionate number of dead and wrongfully accused "you alls" (whatever race and/or ethnicity is being held suspect).

eta: a girl i went to college with told my sister that she liked her because she wasn't like all the other "you alls". :roll:

"In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
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Comments

  • AmnerisAmneris Posts: 15,117Registered Users
    I agree with you, curlyara.
    Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali


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  • Sweet CurlySweet Curly Posts: 32Registered Users
    I think racial and ethnic profiling can be a successful PART of the fight against terrorism. Obviously it can't be relied on solely, but it makes sense in a lot of situations.

    Lots of people get wrongly accused, jailed and/or killed following the current systems in place (ie: jury of your peers, court proceedings, etc). I don't think racial profiling is any worse than any of our current systems.
  • Kelly!Kelly! Posts: 21Registered Users
    Racial profiling, in theory, would be necessary.

    The issue I have with it is that it seems that only non-White people are being profiled. When the sniper was out and about and nobody knew what he/they looked like, police were not randomly stopping White men and searching their cars. I mean, if the goal of racial profiling is to solve crime by targeting groups who typically commit the crime at hand, then random White guys should have been stopped. After all, most serial killers in this country are White. But that didn't happen.

    Now, i do realize that certain crimes have a tendency to be committed by people of specific racial/ethnic groups. I'm not denying that. But, again, my issue is that it seems that the only people who get profiled are people of color.
    "Love yourselves, nurture your students and make this world a better place by your having been part of it." --J. Howland
  • CherishCherish Posts: 1,847Registered Users
    I've posted in the past that gathering places such as militant mosques should be profiled. I posted a link explaining why, and interestingly, one of the militants interviewed in the article was an Irish convert to militant "islamic" ideologies.

    Curlyara and others, I would be interested to know how you would approach the problem? Invade Pakistan? Profile White people?
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Curl Connoisseur Posts: 8,449Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    My main problem with racial and ethnic profiling is that most of the time as Kelly said only non white people are profiled, and often with tragic results.

    When Tim McVeigh blew up that federal building in OKC he was apprehended , there was an investigation, he had a trial, he was found guilty, he was sentenced, he sat in prison for a time, and was given a "respectful" death. :roll:

    In this specific London shooting, this man had NONE of that. Regardless of having an expired visa or not, he was shot at point blank range 5 or more times in the head before any facts were in. They had him down. There was time to ask questions, but no. It was enough that he fit their profile. The worst this man had done was being in the country illegally (which in my mind is NOT an offense punishable by death, illegal or not) and running out of fear.

    I'm just amazed that so many people believe his death is somehow justified since he ran and since he had an expired visa.

    Also, seeing that I look more non white than I do white, I'm kind of worried for my own safety.

    When it comes to taking the life of someone, I'm pretty dichotomous. I feel the same way about the death penalty: have the right person, or don't do it at all.

    By their actions it doesn't even seem that answers were desired.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • CherishCherish Posts: 1,847Registered Users
    Cherish wrote:
    Curlyara and others, I would be interested to know how you would approach the problem? Invade Pakistan? Profile White people?
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Curl Connoisseur Posts: 8,449Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Cherish wrote:
    I've posted in the past that gathering places such as militant mosques should be profiled. I posted a link explaining why, and interestingly, one of the militants interviewed in the article was an Irish convert to militant "islamic" ideologies.

    Curlyara and others, I would be interested to know how you would approach the problem? Invade Pakistan? Profile White people?

    Cherish, I cannot answer that question other than saying what is currently in place is not helping or resolving the situation. Have they found the person who planted the bomb yet?

    They haven't even found Osama bin Laden who is supposed to be the mastermind/big Kahuna behind all of this Al Qaeda bs.

    London is no safer now that that Brazilian man is dead, so how is his death justified?

    I'd like to know how many "ethnic" or muslim looking people have to die in order to uphold a false sense of security.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • CherishCherish Posts: 1,847Registered Users
    curlyara wrote:
    Cherish wrote:
    I've posted in the past that gathering places such as militant mosques should be profiled. I posted a link explaining why, and interestingly, one of the militants interviewed in the article was an Irish convert to militant "islamic" ideologies.

    Curlyara and others, I would be interested to know how you would approach the problem? Invade Pakistan? Profile White people?

    Cherish, I cannot answer that question other than saying what is currently in place is not helping or resolving the situation. Have they found the person who planted the bomb yet?

    I believe they are holding at least one suspect from the same building as the Brazilian man.
    They haven't even found Osama bin Laden who is supposed to be the mastermind/big Kahuna behind all of this Al Qaeda bs.

    Osama is supposedly chilling in or around Pakistan. They could send special forces there to root him out. But, I don't think this network needs him in order to continue flourish.
    London is no safer now that that Brazilian man is dead, so how is his death justified?

    London is not safer, and it's terrible that events unfolded as they did.
    I'd like to know how many "ethnic" or muslim looking people have to die in order to uphold a false sense of security.

    No one should feel safe or unduly fearful, so there's nothing to uphold, IMO.
  • GuardianBGuardianB Curl Connoisseur Posts: 1,905Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    curlyara wrote:
    London is no safer now that that Brazilian man is dead, so how is his death justified?

    I do not think that this man's death was justified however I do believe that from this we can learn that people live in fear of the worst and we all need to try and consider our actions before making them.

    You are at the scene of a terrible bombing, the last thing you should do is run when people are trying to stop you. Yes fear takes over. But fear cause more fear and then there is panic and then people don't act like they should. The more calm you can remain the better.

    This man may have assumed many things. The police obviously did and while his death is tragic and unfourtunate, I can hope that we can learn and live better from it.
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • zmanzzzzzmanzzzz Banned Posts: 3,826Banned Users
    im amazed at how easilly america is able to piss off entire races of people. :roll:

    maybe we are the jerks. :idea:
  • CherishCherish Posts: 1,847Registered Users
    zmanzzzz wrote:
    im amazed at how easilly america is able to piss off entire races of people. :roll:

    maybe we are the jerks. :idea:

    How so?? :shock: :lol:
  • zmanzzzzzmanzzzz Banned Posts: 3,826Banned Users
    Cherish wrote:
    zmanzzzz wrote:
    im amazed at how easilly america is able to piss off entire races of people. :roll:

    maybe we are the jerks. :idea:

    How so?? :shock: :lol:

    unprovoked war, to name a few. :wink:
  • GuardianBGuardianB Curl Connoisseur Posts: 1,905Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    zmanzzzz wrote:
    im amazed at how easilly america is able to piss off entire races of people. :roll:

    maybe we are the jerks. :idea:

    America, the country, maybe a bit spoiled and adolecent thinking that its way is best considering at how young it really is but I don't think that ENTIRE races see the ENTIRE country this way. This is where profilling does happen though. SOME races see SOME of the country this way and SOME countries or part of a country sees SOME races this way.
    Unfourtunately.
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • XyzXyz Posts: 685Registered Users
    The main thing we can learn from this is that the police need to come up with a better system on how they locate terrorists.

    It weirds me out that so many people focus on the victim - the man who got shot, and try to turn him into someone responsible for his own death. Nothing he could have done would have made it justifiable for them to gun him down AFTER he was subdued. It doesn't matter if he wore a coat, or looked Arab, or looked nervous, or resisted arrest. People seem to focus too much on these things instead of keeping their attention focused on the officers that did this.

    I'm against racial profiling and I don't think there is such a thing as using racial profiling in connection with other police methods. There is only good investigative work which involves tailoring your investigation to track down people based on evidence.
  • NetGNetG Posts: 8,116Registered Users
    Living this close to the border, we hear about racial profiling all the time. Not just like that guy, but anyone who looks as if maybe they're Mexican. If the police decide they want to harass someone, they look for someone who looks Mexican, and make up an excuse. When I worked in a law office in high school, we had a client who was supposedly pulled over because he *looked* at the police car as he drove by. The very same officer had supposedly pulled over other people because they *didn't* look. Their common trait? Yup, skincolor. It wasn't behavior based at all, and the officer was seeing excuses in their behavior because he wanted to justify his racial profiling.

    NOT COOL. Ever.
    The pews never miss a sermon but that doesn't get them one step closer to Heaven.
    -Speckla

    But at least the pews never attend yoga!
  • zmanzzzzzmanzzzz Banned Posts: 3,826Banned Users
    i have a problem with people who smell bad.
  • AmnerisAmneris Posts: 15,117Registered Users
    zmanzzzz wrote:
    im amazed at how easilly america is able to piss off entire races of people. :roll:

    maybe we are the jerks. :idea:

    I think entire races is a bit of a generalization, but I do think that some western nations, including the US, are unaware of exactly how much resentment there is towards them and seem to be rubbing salt in the wounds rather than building bridges. When you pursue your own agenda at all costs, and when you have the might and power to do so and to crush all resistance, and when you tend to take a high horse attitude, (you being the nation as a whole) people will look for cracks in the wall and when they find one, rightly or wrongly, they'll attack.

    And the more aggressive the police or the army get, the more ticked off others get. I was very very sympathetic initially towards the victims of 9/11 (I was living in NYC that day and will never forget it - it still makes me sad.) But somehow the people of Iraq and Afghanistan got dragged into the mess that had little to do with them, and now I have a lot of sympathy for them as well, and the more brown people that get mistreated, the angrier I get at the system.

    As long as there are inequalities this severe in the world, there will be terrorism, and using violent subjugation to emphasize those differences will only make it worse.
    Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali


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  • CherishCherish Posts: 1,847Registered Users
    I agree, Amneris.

    However, there has to be a way forward.
  • AmnerisAmneris Posts: 15,117Registered Users
    Cherish wrote:
    I agree, Amneris.

    However, there has to be a way forward.

    I really think that the best way forward is dialogue, not war. Lead by example. Do unto others - forgive Third World debt. A massive reconstruction plan for the countries that need it. Support for them as they explore new options. Open borders. The more we use violence to fight violence, the worse off we will all be.
    Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali


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  • alguma pessoaalguma pessoa Posts: 619Registered Users
    Amneris wrote:
    Cherish wrote:
    I agree, Amneris.

    However, there has to be a way forward.

    I really think that the best way forward is dialogue, not war. Lead by example. Do unto others - forgive Third World debt. A massive reconstruction plan for the countries that need it. Support for them as they explore new options. Open borders. The more we use violence to fight violence, the worse off we will all be.

    I cringed when I saw the forgive the Third World debt. Sorry but I have to guano with an unpopular opinion.....

    Forgiving the debt completely will not do anything but create more problems. We all know that you do not solve money problems with money. I agree with the president of Libya--Africa (or third world countries) cannot live on handouts. What these countries need is strong leadership. It is hard because these countries have been raped of resources by the developed nations and they also suffer from brain drain.

    How can you have leaders if their best of the best have left to live in the US, Europe, Canada, Australia, etc.

    Education and training is needed and staying out of their foreign affairs. When the developing countries interfere in developing nation's politics things get worse.

    I am more in favor of closing borders to prevent brain drain. Let people in people from developing countries to get a proper education but on the condition that they return to help their native countries. Education, empowerment, and stop meddling (a biggie) NOT financial handouts is the way to rebuild a nation.

    Many of the problems come from an imbalance of power, corruption, and colonial legacy. We are living in a great time that you do not need to become an industrial nation to be wealthy. Comparative advantage is not the most important factor of becoming wealthy (look at Japan). Technology and education are the ways of the future.

    In reality, most people (excluding adventurers and travelers) I know would not leave their home country if the political and social situations were better.

    What is that saying about teaching someone to fish and you feed them for life......

    I do agree that the more we use violence the worse the world becomes.
    We're all born mad. Some remain so.

    br-flag1.gif
  • AmnerisAmneris Posts: 15,117Registered Users
    Cehua, you make some good points too and I agree, but it is very hard to stop brain drain when the grass is so much greener on the other side. Heck, Canada has massive brain drain to the US because people like the life there so much, they don't want to come back.

    I agree that Third World leadership is lacking due in part to the colonial past. I agree that education, training and staying out of people's affairs is best.

    But I do agree with debt forgiveness. The interest rates are so high that much of that debt already has been forgiven. Particularly in Africa, infrastructure is not being built because of the debt. Crops that could feed people are not being planted in favour of cash crops like tobacco to pay the debt. Fair trade for things like coffee would also help the Third World.
    Get used to me. Black, confident, cocky; my name, not yours; my religion, not yours; my goals, my own; get used to me. -Muhammad Ali


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  • alguma pessoaalguma pessoa Posts: 619Registered Users
    Amneris wrote:
    Cehua, you make some good points too and I agree, but it is very hard to stop brain drain when the grass is so much greener on the other side. Heck, Canada has massive brain drain to the US because people like the life there so much, they don't want to come back.

    I agree that Third World leadership is lacking due in part to the colonial past. I agree that education, training and staying out of people's affairs is best.

    But I do agree with debt forgiveness. The interest rates are so high that much of that debt already has been forgiven. Particularly in Africa, infrastructure is not being built because of the debt. Crops that could feed people are not being planted in favour of cash crops like tobacco to pay the debt. Fair trade for things like coffee would also help the Third World.

    So, what to do? I know plenty of immigrants who are successful and who are making 6 figure salaries and they never return to help their country (many are Africans (mainly from Ghana, Cameroon, Sudan, and Ethiopia) who only return to their home country to visit although some own property....but that is still not enough).

    I agree that the debt needs to be forgiven, but partially because forgiving it completely....well lets just say I have a funny feeling about this that I would rather not say as not to offend some posters....

    Fair trade--yes.
    Education--yes.
    Partial debt forgiveness-yes.
    Debt deferment--yes.
    Leadership--yes.
    More internal checks and balances--yes.
    Stop developing nations from meddling--yes.
    Respect cultural differences--yes.

    There is much more but I have to run now. Talk to you later.
    We're all born mad. Some remain so.

    br-flag1.gif
  • GuardianBGuardianB Curl Connoisseur Posts: 1,905Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Cehua wrote:
    I am more in favor of closing borders to prevent brain drain. Let people in people from developing countries to get a proper education but on the condition that they return to help their native countries. Education, empowerment, and stop meddling (a biggie) NOT financial handouts is the way to rebuild a nation.

    Many of the problems come from an imbalance of power, corruption, and colonial legacy. We are living in a great time that you do not need to become an industrial nation to be wealthy. Comparative advantage is not the most important factor of becoming wealthy (look at Japan). Technology and education are the ways of the future.

    In reality, most people (excluding adventurers and travelers) I know would not leave their home country if the political and social situations were better.

    What is that saying about teaching someone to fish and you feed them for life......

    I like this idea. Otherwise if those that desire to leave the "unwanted" behind then it depreciates in value and the Donald Trumps of the world buy all of suddenly prime real estate at dirt cheap prices and get even richer.
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • love yourself firstlove yourself first Posts: 5,398Registered Users
    Kelly wrote:
    Racial profiling, in theory, would be necessary.

    The issue I have with it is that it seems that only non-White people are being profiled. When the sniper was out and about and nobody knew what he/they looked like, police were not randomly stopping White men and searching their cars. I mean, if the goal of racial profiling is to solve crime by targeting groups who typically commit the crime at hand, then random White guys should have been stopped. After all, most serial killers in this country are White. But that didn't happen.

    Now, i do realize that certain crimes have a tendency to be committed by people of specific racial/ethnic groups. I'm not denying that. But, again, my issue is that it seems that the only people who get profiled are people of color.

    I basically agree with this. For example, date rape, incest and domestic violence statistically happen in greater proportion within the same in-group or race. Here in the US, although it is changing, the largest racial group is white and has been for a very long time. But is there any profiling of white men, be they single and dating or married with children :?: I think not. The same can be said for serial killers, who are disproportionately white and male.

    As I just posted in the thread that led to this one, it is far too easy for a larger segment of society to condone the racial profiling of the same, smaller minority groups, i.e. black, arab and latino men. It is unfair and morally wrong, and in the international arena, it is backfiring with apparently justified cries of American racism and xenophobia.
    "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."
    "I think that somehow, we learn who we really are and then we live with that decision."
    - Eleanor Roosevelt (both quotes)

    (taking a break from posting starting late august 2009)
  • GuardianBGuardianB Curl Connoisseur Posts: 1,905Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Curltopia wrote:
    Kelly wrote:
    Racial profiling, in theory, would be necessary.

    The issue I have with it is that it seems that only non-White people are being profiled. When the sniper was out and about and nobody knew what he/they looked like, police were not randomly stopping White men and searching their cars. I mean, if the goal of racial profiling is to solve crime by targeting groups who typically commit the crime at hand, then random White guys should have been stopped. After all, most serial killers in this country are White. But that didn't happen.

    Now, i do realize that certain crimes have a tendency to be committed by people of specific racial/ethnic groups. I'm not denying that. But, again, my issue is that it seems that the only people who get profiled are people of color.

    I basically agree with this. For example, date rape, incest and domestic violence statistically happen in greater proportion within the same in-group or race. Here in the US, although it is changing, the largest racial group is white and has been for a very long time. But is there any profiling of white men, be they single and dating or married with children :?: I think not. The same can be said for serial killers, who are disproportionately white and male.

    As I just posted in the thread that led to this one, it is far too easy for a larger segment of society to condone the racial profiling of the same, smaller minority groups, i.e. black, arab and latino men. It is unfair and morally wrong, and in the international arena, it is backfiring with apparently justified cries of American racism and xenophobia.

    Actually I believe if you look at the profiling of serial killers they almost always do point to the white middle class, middle aged males. So it does happen. We just don't hear about it as much and go up in arms about it at all.
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • LayaliLayali Curl Connoisseur Posts: 561Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Racial/Ethnic Profiling--My take is that it is completely wrong. The taking away of one group’s civil liberties and rights goes completely against the democratic ideals that we’re trying so hard to defend and uphold.

    What should make someone suspicious is not who they ARE, but what they DO. A person who is Muslim/brown/Middle eastern/an immigrant should not be held suspect just because they have these attributes.

    I’m not even trying to say that I know the race/cultural/faith background of people defending the racial profiling going on in this “War against Terror.” However, I will make a guess and say that profiling doesn’t really affect you or your life too much. For some of us though, it has become a HUGE issue. I come from a family of hard-working, tax paying, peace loving American citizens. We were heartbroken and shaken when 9/11 happened. We LOVE this country, it has done so much for us.

    However, life has become difficult for us and other Muslim Americans/legal immigrants. Let me share some personal experiences with you. Our once friendly neighbors, have become cold and distant and one even mentioned that she didn’t feel like she could trust us. The police make random stops by our house (maybe someone reported suspicious activity?). Right after 9/11 happened, someone at my college took it upon themselves to write the word “Sandn****r” on my door. I’m not Arab, but it still really shook me up. I have a friend who had a glass of water thrown in his face and was told to rot in hell. I know someone who was beaten with a baseball bat outside of a mosque. The list of injustices really goes on and on.

    I really don’t feel like I can even be open about my religious/cultural heritage anymore and I’m definitely not the only person who feels this way either. I don’t like the feeling of being held suspect in my own country, by my own people because I choose to practice a certain religion. There are crazy, dangerous factions in all faiths, but they are not held to the scrutiny that Muslims are.

    I can’t tell you how much anger and rage I feel towards these terrorists. What they are doing is despicable and atrocious. ALL of us are living in fear because of them. Peaceful, mainstream Muslims are not immune to their violence and bullying. They truly did “hijack” Islam. Please don’t insult the millions of peaceful Muslims around the world by grouping us in with the terrorists.

    I will give people the benefit of the doubt and say that I understand that fear and distrust are a natural human reaction. I just want to give you my perspective, because I don’t think some people really understand the ramifications of racial profiling. The most important being that it gives people license to be openly hostile and prejudiced. Racial/ethnic profiling was used to justify Japanese internment, the holocaust, and various other genocides around the world. I’m not saying that there will be a Muslim holocaust, but I am saying that profiling is dangerous. It is not as harmless as some you of seem to think.

    Sorry for the long post, but I had to get some stuff of my chest.
    naturally 3b/3c

    Explanation by the tongue makes most things clear, but love unexplained is clearer. ~ Rumi
  • love yourself firstlove yourself first Posts: 5,398Registered Users
    GuardianB wrote:

    Actually I believe if you look at the profiling of serial killers they almost always do point to the white middle class, middle aged males. So it does happen. We just don't hear about it as much and go up in arms about it at all.

    I'd be interested in any links or resources that you can provide regarding your post. I am genuinely interested.

    TIA
    "Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."
    "I think that somehow, we learn who we really are and then we live with that decision."
    - Eleanor Roosevelt (both quotes)

    (taking a break from posting starting late august 2009)
  • M2LRM2LR Curl Connoisseur Posts: 8,630Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    curltopia: this link has good stats, and bullet number 5 - 84% of American serial killers are caucasian.

    http://members.fortunecity.com/hiper22/inf_stats.htm

    Of the stats on that site, 86% are white, 90% world wide are male, 85% are heterosexual, and 89% of victims are white...65% of victims are female...

    Interesting site.
    :rambo:
  • GuardianBGuardianB Curl Connoisseur Posts: 1,905Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Curltopia wrote:
    GuardianB wrote:

    Actually I believe if you look at the profiling of serial killers they almost always do point to the white middle class, middle aged males. So it does happen. We just don't hear about it as much and go up in arms about it at all.

    I'd be interested in any links or resources that you can provide regarding your post. I am genuinely interested.

    TIA

    I don't have links. I have CSI (not the drama) type documentaries that show where the profiling was aimed. That is all.
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • CherishCherish Posts: 1,847Registered Users
    Amneris wrote:
    Cherish wrote:
    I agree, Amneris.

    However, there has to be a way forward.

    I really think that the best way forward is dialogue, not war. Lead by example. Do unto others - forgive Third World debt. A massive reconstruction plan for the countries that need it. Support for them as they explore new options. Open borders. The more we use violence to fight violence, the worse off we will all be.

    I agree with the parts in bold. I think the rest is debatable and probably applies less to the middle east than other parts of the world. Most terrorists want land back.

    I know the al qaeda types want certain detained people released.. not sure what else they want (besides converting all to islam).

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