New, Gray, Frizzy, and Hopeful! Asking for advice and encouragement

boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
Hi! I'm new! 
The short version: New, age 53, Gray, natural hair, frizzy, want styling advice

The Details: I've uploaded a profile pic of my hair on a good day, since a pic is worth a lot of words. I've done the site quiz. I'm classified as a 3a, medium porosity, medium/thick density.

I use no chemical treatments. No heat. No silicones or alcohols or parabens. I've been conditioning only with Deva Curl One condition (using no shampoo or even no-poo) for 6 months (June-Dec 2017). I've had a curly girl method cut twice in those 7 months. I'm recovering from what I believe to be drying damage, which occurred from the ends upward, due to a prior 6-month regimen of baking soda and ACV only (Dec 2016-June 2017). Before December 2016, I'd been using Deva Curl No poo and one condition for over a year. I have found improvement in new growth texture since abandoning the bs and acv. Only about the upper 1/4 - 1/3 of my hair feels nice. While my gray is a mix of some smooth with mostly wirey strands, I can definitely tell that the lower 2/3 - 3/4 of my hair is dry and feels brillowy.  

I follow the CG method with a full rinse of the one-condition, upside down out of the shower, no toweling, and product application while very wet with no combing or even raking after the final rinse, or even touching my hair except to apply product with "praying hands" to keep curls intact. I drip dry with a t shirt over my shoulders and a few carefully placed clips for root height at the crown, For hair styling products, I cycle between Curly Hair solutions Curl Keeper, Aveda Flaxseed/Aloe Sculpting Gel, AG Recoil, and Aveda Be Curly Style Prep. All seem to perform pretty much the same and dry the same, but the Curl Keeper is the best of the bunch, followed by the Flaxseed/Aloe. I'm really just trying to use them up and find a better product that gives me much more shine and supple texture.

My hair is very well behaved when styled. Wherever I place it, it stays. If I take the time to twirl curls while wet, they stay and hold excellent. I just dont put in the work because once dry, it frizzes. And, after a one-night of sleep I end up with even more frizz.  Then it goes up in a clip for 3 days until I "wash" it and start over again. I sleep on a 100% slippery silk pillowcase. I never touch my hair. I just cant seem to find the products that will eliminate the ever-present frizz. I don't know if I'm glycerin or protein sensitive. Ive just read about that on this site today. 

My hair has potential, I hope, to be shiny and soft and bouncy. I've never really had that, even when my hair was a natural dark brown. I'm hoping that I've told you enough that you can help me avoid buying products that will take me in a wrong direction, and that you can recommend somethings to help me get a nicer "feel" and a shinier look. Even though some of my texture is very wirey even in the new growth, I am grateful for the lift and body that it gives my straighter pieces, and I'm hopeful I can tame it for more controlled, together-looking and staying curls. As an example, "MandaPanda" has my dream curl.

PS I am also recovering from a major "thinning" razoring that took place at a hair salon in May 2017. The stylist went pretty heavily into my hair and took out a lot. I was unaware that this would contribute to frizz, as I've now been told by the CG stylist.

Oh, I'm also 53, and not menopausal yet, but I wonder if hormones play any part in this. I take lots of vitamins. :) Thanks for taking the time to read all of this and for any product and styling suggestions. I want healthier and happier hair in 2018. :)
Warmly,
Dandi
Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

Comments

  • bomegabomega Registered Users Posts: 1,355 Curl Virtuoso
    Hi @dandilocks : Welcome to nc.com. I think your hair looks great in that photo you uploaded. My first thought is that you do use a lot of products with protein especially for someone who isn't high porosity. I'm not sure if that is the problem, but I noticed it. In addition, do you clarify regularly? Try clarifying followed by a moisturizing deep treatment without protein and see how that goes.

    - Some Clarifying shampoos: Kinky Curly Come Clean, VO5 Normal Shampoo, Bumble and Bumble Sunday Shampoo.
    - A couple deep treatments without protein: Curl Junkie Curl Rehab, Camile Rose Natural Algae Deep Treatment, and Shea Moisture Raw Shea Butter Extra Moisture Deep Treatment (disclaimer: I have never used any of these, but they look great and are on my list.) Try to leave the deep treatment on for 20-30 minutes ideally under heat. See how that goes.

    Hormones are definitely a factor, but I would look into it only if you are experiencing a lot of sudden hairfall (as a sign of some sort of imbalance). Otherwise, can't exactly change much there, so you just have to work with what. My hair changed around my mid-late 30s, but I had the best hair ever when I ate a lot of green smoothies.

    Low-poo: Alaffia Coffee & Shea Revitalizing Shampoo for Fine/Thin Hair (summer), Alaffia Coconut & Shea Hydrating Shampoo
    Clarify: Kinky Curly Come Clean
    Rinse-out: Alaffia Coffee & Shea Revitalizing Conditioner for Fine/Thin Hair (summer), Alaffia Everyday Coconut Ultra Hydrating Conditioner
    DT: Camille Rose Naturals Algae Renew Deep Conditioner
    Leave-in: As I Am Leave-in
    Styler: Lily of the Desert 99% Aloe Vera Gelly
    Treatment: Daily tea spray; Coconut oil overnight treatment; Citric acid rinse for hard water; 2-step Henndigo w/ amla to cover gray

    2C, fine, low porosity, low/medium density, protein sensitive

    Looking for styling products and tools

    iHerb Code KQS149 for 5% off your order
  • boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
    Hi @bomega, You are so kind to encourage me! Thank you. Thanks also for pointing some things out in detail. No, I actually don't clarify, ever. I think that is because I never shampoo. I use Deva One-Condition original as my "shampoo" and as my conditioner.  I stopped all shampoo and no-poo at the recommendation of the CG stylist who said my dry hair doesn't need it. For the 6 months that I was using baking soda in the first half of 2017, and I suppose that was a clarifier. It was a suddenly harsh feeling on my squeaky clean hair, which had only known the Deva No-poo in the year prior. Yet, the baking soda was an approved method from a previous stylist who swore by Aveda and had me using that line, with poor results. I followed the baking soda / acv regimen thinking that it would be safe and non-harmful. In time I saw the damage climbing up the hair shafts, and by that time my hair was straw like. That was awful to realize.

    No, I didn't know I was using a lot of protein. I actually don't know anything about how proteins in hair products affect hair. I can't tell by reading the ingredients of my products listed above that proteins are there, so I'm glad you noticed and can tell at a glance! Right now I am reading about glycerins on this site, and wondering what that is doing, and if I'm using any of those, also.

    Yeah, hormones aren't an obvious change in my life, but Im supposedly in the window of that change of life so I thought to mention it. I'm with you, thought; I'll just go have to go with it, lol. 

    Also, I forgot to mention that I have well water, which is "hard" but we have a water softener, so hopefully that remedies the water condition.

    I appreciate the thoughtful response and the product list to consider. My big reason for skipping shampoo is not to dry out the hair any more. I think that is why the CG stylist recommended that I stop if possible. Incidentally, not shampooing has been fine with me. The one-condition cleans my hair well and after the process my hair feels totally clean. 
    Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
    Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
    Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

  • boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
    Oh... one treatment my hair likes is the plain old VO5 hot oil treatment. Another one that it likes is the Kerastase Aqua-Oleum. Both leave my hair soft; but, it doesn't last too long. A week at most. Are those considered deep treatments? 
    Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
    Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
    Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

  • jeepcurlygurljeepcurlygurl Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 20,730 Curl Virtuoso
    @dandilocks Welcome! I think your hair is beautiful and I think you are doing a great job of experimenting and finding what routines and products your hair likes.
    I do notice so many people worry about frizz and I often wonder what their frizz actually looks like. I like a bit of frizz because I like lots of volume and frizz gives the illusion of more hair.
    Have you tried plopping your wet hair instead of drip drying? My hair is a mix of 3a-3b and I don't think it would like drip drying. It would take too long to dry, would probably contribute to added frizz and loss of curl and volume.


    --I'm located in Western PA.   --I found NC in late 2004, CG since February 2005, joined the forums in May 2005, started going grey in late 2005.   --My hair is 3B with some 3A, currently at mid back length when dry,  texture-medium/fine, porosity-top is low, middle is medium, ends are porous, elasticity-normal.   --My long time favorite products are Suave & VO5 conditioners, LA Looks Sport Gel, coconut oil, honey, vinegar.   
    --My CG and grey hair progress -  
    http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/going-gray/179328-jeepys-grey-hair-progress.html   
    --My article at NaturallyCurly about going grey - 
    https://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/color/how-i-went-completely-gray-and-loved-it
  • bomegabomega Registered Users Posts: 1,355 Curl Virtuoso
    edited December 2017
    Devacurl products are notorious around curltalk for causing building. People who use Devacurl usually use the Devacurl Buildup Buster on some regular basis. Hopefully one of them will chime in about it.

    If you have the water softener, your water is probably ok. When I get hardwater buildup, it does feel dry, but its goes kind of straight...not in a good way. I'm not sure if glycerin is the issue for you unless you have very low dews where you live. Glycerin can cause frizz in high dews, but it would also be hydrating your hair if that was the case (I live in an area with ideal dews, and we have a lot of moisture in the air in the winter. I see it as a time to use glycerin conditioners for a moisture boost to my hair.)

    You can tell a product has protein in it if the ingredients list has it listed as protein, but also "amino acid" and occasionally products will list out the amino acids with their name. Yes, technically the VO5 and the Kerastase are a sort of deep treatment. The VO5 is CG friendly, but also has wheat amino acids. The Kerastase has denatured alcohol as the second ingredient, which is drying. It also has amodimethicone in it, which is considered one of the better cones as it doesn't build up on itself, and makes claims of repairing damage. But it is sitting there. Some people use cones without adverse effects but they usually use a sulfate shampoo at least occasionally. Personally, avoiding cones was a game-changer for my hair.

    Maybe some of the Silver Foxes around here will chime in (ETA: Oh look jeepy chimed in while I was writing my book :)), but my thought is still that you need a moisture treatment...with no protein, and still can benefit from sulfate/Sulfonate clarifying, especially since you have been using 'cones. You would only clarify 1x/month or less, and absolutely must follow with a deep treatment, but can do the deep treatment without clarifying. Some people use a low-poo (non-sulfate shampoo) before deep treatment if they feel like it.
    Low-poo: Alaffia Coffee & Shea Revitalizing Shampoo for Fine/Thin Hair (summer), Alaffia Coconut & Shea Hydrating Shampoo
    Clarify: Kinky Curly Come Clean
    Rinse-out: Alaffia Coffee & Shea Revitalizing Conditioner for Fine/Thin Hair (summer), Alaffia Everyday Coconut Ultra Hydrating Conditioner
    DT: Camille Rose Naturals Algae Renew Deep Conditioner
    Leave-in: As I Am Leave-in
    Styler: Lily of the Desert 99% Aloe Vera Gelly
    Treatment: Daily tea spray; Coconut oil overnight treatment; Citric acid rinse for hard water; 2-step Henndigo w/ amla to cover gray

    2C, fine, low porosity, low/medium density, protein sensitive

    Looking for styling products and tools

    iHerb Code KQS149 for 5% off your order
  • boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
    @jeepcurlygurl Thank you for the encouraging reply! To answer, I define frizz as flyaway ends that stick out all over and look like static electricity. In the uploaded pic, my hair is 80% dry, and the frizz is obviously already forming on the back area of my hair (right side of pic) and this is with a condition only wash, no heat, and a generous amount CHS curl keeper product in it. For the record, this is one of the main areas where my hair was razor thinned, but I dont know if I can blame that. About plopping, I have avoided it because I feared it would break up the ends of the curl clumps even more, giving more frizzy tips. But, I am totally open to trying it again. Maybe I wasnt doing it right.

    With the product changes that @bomega (thank you again!) is suggesting here, I can see where there might be some quick changes that I will try right away that might have a big effect. I can see that I have a lot to learn about hair and products... no wonder my results have been unpredictable. As far as "dews," I dont know about that either. I live in the pacific northwest of US, and today's dewpoint is 38. I have no idea if that is bad or good, lol. Also, re: the Kerastase, that was a recommendation from a friend with very different hair than me who swore by it, so I tried it, but infrequently. It is good to know about these things now, and I bet I can get this nailed down with so much help already coming my way. Thank you both so much.
    Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
    Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
    Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

  • ellajellaj Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 826 Curl Virtuoso
    edited December 2017
    Hi! I'm new! 
    The short version: New, age 53, Gray, natural hair, frizzy, want styling advice

    Warmly,
    Dandi
       Hello and welcome, boldilocks. You have very pretty, silver curls. Also, you have so much great advice already so all I would like to add is a thumbs up to @bomega's advice to clarify, followed by a deep moisturizing conditioner. 

    With my graying hair, less can often be better when it comes to conditioning. I always dilute both my shampoo and conditioner. Most leave in conditioners and other products can weigh my hair down. Co-washing doesn't work for all curly hair types, that's where modifying the routine comes in, for me.

    There is so much valuable information to be found here, enjoy the forum!
       

    Type: 2c
    Density: medium
    Porosity: high
    Thickness: fine


  • GretchenGretchen Administrator Moderators Posts: 10,840 Curl Virtuoso
    Welcome @dandilocks !  Thanks for joining us!  Your hair is gorgeous! 


    Gretchen
    NaturallyCurly.com co-founder
    3A

    You are beautiful!
  • boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
    Thanks so much to you @ellaj and @Gretchen! Your support gives me excitement that I can have hair that isn't like a lottery draw. This profile pic is actually my best hair pic - it rarely looks like this, lol... so often its way bigger and way frizzier.  I wish I could schedule family pictures around good hair days, lol (I hope someone can relate!)... I am reading so much here about protein and glycerin and propylene glycol... I have one or more of them in every product I use. I also want to understand dewpoints and what that has to do with it. I will make a new post asking about this. Thank you soo soo much! 
    Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
    Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
    Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

  • ellajellaj Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 826 Curl Virtuoso
    You are welcome, @dandilocks. I am still a newbie here and I am always browsing the forum and learning as much as I can.

    You mention using baking soda and ACV for a six month period. I have heard mostly negative comments when reading about this method, but I cannot speak from personal experience as I have not tried it. Occasionally I will use a white vinegar rinse in place of a clarifying shampoo. I have read that ACV can possibly stain white, gray and silver hair, leaving a yellowish cast. Again, I have never used ACV so cannot speak from experience.

    I did find this discussion right here at curl talk. You may find it an interesting read...

    https://curltalk.naturallycurly.com/discussion/141769/baking-soda-and-vinegar-ruining-my-hair
       

    Type: 2c
    Density: medium
    Porosity: high
    Thickness: fine


  • boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
    Thanks, @ellaj, I hadnt come across that thread yet. I agree with the responses there, in that it seems to echo my own experience, but just reading it, I see I did some things wrong when using it. I applied BS as a paste, lol, to my scalp ... oh Lordie, no wonder I had issues and shockingly it took a whole 6 months to realize what I was doing was not so good... oh my shaking my head. I also used the ACV straight, undiluted ... see me laughing more and also more head shaking is happening here right now... oh gosh my hair must be nearly bullet-proof to endure that for so long. Thanks for the link and I think I should be a little more discerning, lol.

    Too bad I didnt find this site sooner and too bad my former stylist (who was not CG) also didnt know what I was doing was so wrong. This tells me I'm on the right track. For me, the damage is being corrected by grow-out, and I am also consuming collagen, at 1T per day. I believe this is helping the regrowth come in healthier, and less wirey and dry. 

    I ordered some KC Knot Today for a leave-in, which I will begin first. And I will clarify but I will think again about using the BS to do it, unless I really dilute!! haha
    Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
    Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
    Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

  • bomegabomega Registered Users Posts: 1,355 Curl Virtuoso
    <snip> As far as "dews," I dont know about that either. I live in the pacific northwest of US, and today's dewpoint is 38. I have no idea if that is bad or good, lol. Also, re: the Kerastase, that was a recommendation from a friend with very different hair than me who swore by it, so I tried it, but infrequently. It is good to know about these things now, and I bet I can get this nailed down with so much help already coming my way. Thank you both so much.
    I live in the PNW also. :wave: :) We generally enjoy ideal dews. Higher in winter, lower in summer, but it depends really on your microclimate...and then there are the occasional Arctic Fronts or tropical fronts that come through and change it up for us. To give you an example of how ideal we have it, when it snowed on Chrismas eve, I didn't worry. But last year's snowpocalype when temps got into single digits and my skin developed scales while shoveling snow...that was iffy for my hair. But people in Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc...have to deal with that single digit temps and low dews all the time.
    Low-poo: Alaffia Coffee & Shea Revitalizing Shampoo for Fine/Thin Hair (summer), Alaffia Coconut & Shea Hydrating Shampoo
    Clarify: Kinky Curly Come Clean
    Rinse-out: Alaffia Coffee & Shea Revitalizing Conditioner for Fine/Thin Hair (summer), Alaffia Everyday Coconut Ultra Hydrating Conditioner
    DT: Camille Rose Naturals Algae Renew Deep Conditioner
    Leave-in: As I Am Leave-in
    Styler: Lily of the Desert 99% Aloe Vera Gelly
    Treatment: Daily tea spray; Coconut oil overnight treatment; Citric acid rinse for hard water; 2-step Henndigo w/ amla to cover gray

    2C, fine, low porosity, low/medium density, protein sensitive

    Looking for styling products and tools

    iHerb Code KQS149 for 5% off your order
  • ellajellaj Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 826 Curl Virtuoso
    Oh no, I just realized that your username is @boldilocks. So many similar usernames here, I suppose it is easy to slip up.  ;)
       

    Type: 2c
    Density: medium
    Porosity: high
    Thickness: fine


  • boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
    -- @bomega we had a Christmas eve snow here too .. I know it snows everywhere but I wonder if we are near each other:) I'm in western WA. Thats good news that we are in good dews lol... thanks for that. 

    -- @ellaj, you are so kind. You didn't mess up. I'm brand new and decided to update my username since its only a few days old. I did so because this forum is helping me to feel bolder about my hair and the new year coming and my unique self. I could be blessed by  a little more boldness in my spirit so I decided to go with the play on words and change dandi to boldi.:) Thanks for noticing!:)
    Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
    Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
    Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

  • ellajellaj Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 826 Curl Virtuoso
    -- @ellaj, you are so kind. You didn't mess up. I'm brand new and decided to update my username since its only a few days old. I did so because this forum is helping me to feel bolder about my hair and the new year coming and my unique self. I could be blessed by  a little more boldness in my spirit so I decided to go with the play on words and change dandi to boldi.:) Thanks for noticing!:)
    Well that explains things, then. I am happy to hear that you are feeling a little more bolder about your hair. Happy New Year @boldilocks!
       

    Type: 2c
    Density: medium
    Porosity: high
    Thickness: fine


  • boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
    @ellaj, please consider posting a pic of your curls. I read somewhere that you are a silvery curled gal and, like in a garden, I'd love to see what you're growing:)
    Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
    Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
    Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

  • ellajellaj Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 826 Curl Virtuoso
    boldilocks said:
    " like in a garden, I'd love to see what you're growing:)"
    Ha, Ha! You have a flair with words, boldilocks! Once I get this hair a little longer and in better condition, then I will consider posting a photo.  ;)
       

    Type: 2c
    Density: medium
    Porosity: high
    Thickness: fine


  • boldilocksboldilocks Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Posts: 39 Curl Connoisseur
    @ellaj yay! I believe in you.
    Formerly Dandilocks; embracing the bold in 2018
    Type: 2c-3a gray natural/ Thickness: coarse, some medium/ Density: high/ Porosity: normal/ Elasticity: good/ Style: deva cut/ Products: Deva One Condition (co-wash, conditioner, leave-in), CHS Curl Keeper/
    Hair Goals: less frizz, better clumping, better 2-3 day hair, more shine

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