CurlTalk

Pledge of Allegiance

deedlesdeedles Posts: 2,466Registered Users
Hey Curlies,

Now let me first say that I hope this topic doesn’t start WWIII but I was just wondering your opinion since it seems to be a HOT ISSUE right now.

If you feel like posting your reasoning along with your poll answer feel free.. and I don’t mind going First…..

I don’t mind the Pledge of Allegiance being in Public Schools at all and I don't mind the word "God" being said either.. I mean I know some kids when I was Back in school kids either stood up and said the pledge or just stood up but made the choice not to say the pledge I honestly don’t see what all the broo-ha-ha is about….

deedleguide
Liam: 6 years old
Colin: 3 years old
Location: Williamsburg, Virginia
Member Since: August 2000
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Comments

  • Summer91Summer91 Posts: 265Registered Users
    I don't think they should make kids say the Pledge of Allegiance period. I know they can't technically force them to do it, but at my kids school the teachers pretty much make them say it.
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    I don't think they should make kids say the pledge of allegiance. I remember kids that didnt say it or that just stood there were ostracized, and I thought that was wrong. I don't care, teachers have A LOT of power, and can sometimes be the leaders of this pariah-making.

    But I don't take offense to the "under God". Either or. Doesn't matter to me.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

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  • GuardianBGuardianB Posts: 1,818Registered Users
    Don't really care either way but I dont think "under God" has to be a part of it.

    I do feel that it should be taught in Public Schools with the option that a child recite it or not, believe in it or not.

    Citizens of the country in which they reside should know these types of things. It bothers me greatly when a person who has lived here in the US for 30 years doesn't know the Pledge. Or an entertainer gets up to sing the National Anthem and doesn't know the works. :roll: :shock: :evil:
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • papayahedpapayahed Posts: 1,282Registered Users
    I'm pretty ambivalent about the whole thing. I went to Catholic school and we were forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance as well as pray.

    I don't think anybody should be forced to learn it nor the national anthem, to me their just fluff. The important part is that people know the mean behind these things in addition to how we became a country and why we became a country. What really irks me is when people shout about their rights (nobody here) yet don't know how they got those rights or where it is written that they have rights. But I digress.

    I'm ambivalent.
  • Cabana BoyCabana Boy Posts: 400Registered Users
    GuardianB wrote:
    Or an entertainer gets up to sing the National Anthem and doesn't know the works. :roll: :shock: :evil:

    I hate it when they forget the works. :P
    Fortune favors the bold.
  • GuardianBGuardianB Posts: 1,818Registered Users
    Cabana Boy wrote:
    GuardianB wrote:
    Or an entertainer gets up to sing the National Anthem and doesn't know the works. :roll: :shock: :evil:

    I hate it when they forget the works. :P

    doh!!!
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • Who Me?Who Me? Posts: 3,181Registered Users
    I think having kids pledge their allegiance to their country is a good thing. I also agree that people should know the history behind it, etc. I have no problem with the phrase "under god" being used in a Catholic School (as someone mentioned).

    I DO have a problem with public schools using the phrase "under god". I believe in a firm separation of church and state. I have no problems with people believing in god, or praying, etc., but I do have a problem with it being enforced by the government. I don't think "in god we trust" should be on the money. I don't think the government should really fund religious institutions, and i don't think the president should mention god or religion or faith in his/her speeches.

    I know a lot of people think along the lines of "just deal with it. it's not a big deal. say it, or don't say it".

    How would you feel if the line went something like "One nation, without a god, with liberty...". I bet a lot of people would freak out, and wouldn't want their children hearing it, never mind saying it.
    "I don't know! I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again!" -BART SIMPSON
  • papayahedpapayahed Posts: 1,282Registered Users
    Who Me? : That reminds me of an All in the Family episode (at least I think it was All in the Family) where Archie (or whoever) was saying something along the lines of : "Why should Jewish, Arabic, etc. have a problem praying to God? "
  • curlyarcacurlyarca Posts: 8,449Registered Users
    Or heres a ripe one: One nation, under Allah/Krishna/Vishnu/Jehovah/The Enlightened One.... :lol:

    Sorry. Just messin'.

    I think in the context given, 'God' could be generic. But I don't think it's being used this way.

    "In the depth of winter, I finally learned that within me there lay an invincible summer."

    4a, mbl, low porosity, normal thickness, fine hair.
  • GuardianBGuardianB Posts: 1,818Registered Users
    To follow what WhoMe is (I believe) trying to say. If one does not believe in A God, say agnostic or atheist, why should they be driven to recite it in a way that has no bearing on their right or patriotism as a US citizen.

    I do believe the "under God" phrase was only added in the '50's and did not exist in the original writing.
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • GuardianBGuardianB Posts: 1,818Registered Users
    Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist.

    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fhistory.vineyard.net%2Fpledge.htm" class="Popup
    Bellamy's original Pledge: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with equality, liberty and justice for all.'
    ~Two friends, one soul inspired~ anonymous
  • Who Me?Who Me? Posts: 3,181Registered Users
    Yep, GuardianB, that's what I meant. It doesn't seem to me that Jews or Muslims or Buddhists, etc. have much of a problem with mentioning "god" in the Pledge. It's the people who don't believe in ANY of those gods that have a problem. And I don't see why they should be excluded in the pledge, or made to say something they don't believe, just in order to pledge to their country.

    If you want to pledge allegiance to a god, go ahead and do so. But if you want to pledge allegiance to your country, god should have nothing to do with it.
    "I don't know! I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again!" -BART SIMPSON
  • scubagalscubagal Posts: 44Registered Users
    GuardianB wrote:

    I do believe the "under God" phrase was only added in the '50's and did not exist in the original writing.

    It was added in the 1950's during the McCarthy era.... we have had this conversation to death, and while it was one of the better debates here... I am not willing to do it again.
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  • GretchenGretchen Administrator Posts: 8,424Administrators, Moderators Administrator
    I think the words "under God" in the pledge are wholly unconstitutional and should be removed.
    I think the guy presents his case to SCOTUS this week; it will be interesting to see what hapens.

    Should kids be forced to recite the pledge at all? Seems like goofy, right-leaning forced patriotism to me, but I don't think it's unconstitutional.

    Gretchen
    NaturallyCurly.com co-founder
    3A

    You are beautiful!
  • rouquinnerouquinne Posts: 13,495Registered Users Curl Dabbler
    whatever your personal thoughts are on this, your Supreme Court has ruled that saying the words "under God" does NOT constitute prayer.


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  • GretchenGretchen Administrator Posts: 8,424Administrators, Moderators Administrator
    No, they haven't ruled yet. That story is just a reporter's early interpretation of the justices' thoughts based on the questions they asked the lawyer presenting the case. Could be an accurate interpretation or it could be misreading the justices playing devil's advocate.

    The justices likely won't issue their opinions for months.

    Gretchen
    NaturallyCurly.com co-founder
    3A

    You are beautiful!
  • Summer91Summer91 Posts: 265Registered Users
    Seems like goofy, right-leaning forced patriotism to me

    My thoughts exactly, which is why I don't think it should be something they should have to say or else they are made to feel like crap for it.
  • kurlykittykurlykitty Posts: 162Registered Users
    Who Me? wrote:
    Yep, GuardianB, that's what I meant. It doesn't seem to me that Jews or Muslims or Buddhists, etc. have much of a problem with mentioning "god" in the Pledge. It's the people who don't believe in ANY of those gods that have a problem.

    Not quite true. Muslims don't call their god "God" - they call their god "Allah" and would have problems calling their god "God." Buddhists do not believe in transcendant, personal a god or goddess. There are many religious which believe in multiple gods and goddesses and would have a problem with pledging allegiance to a nation that under a "God" instead of all the gods. (And some adherents to the 3 Abrahamic religions believe that speaking the name of God, Jehovah, or Allah aloud is a blasphemy, anyway.)

    The whole Under God thing really does reflect a Judeo-Christian bias - not just a bias against the nonreligious.
    "Beware the man of one book." --Latin proverb
  • MeyerGirlMeyerGirl Posts: 170Registered Users
    I don't think that anyone should have to this particular line of the "Pledge." If people do not want to say any of it that suits me fine. It is all just words.
    4a, deep waves and pensprings.
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  • Who Me?Who Me? Posts: 3,181Registered Users
    kurlykitty wrote:
    Who Me? wrote:
    Yep, GuardianB, that's what I meant. It doesn't seem to me that Jews or Muslims or Buddhists, etc. have much of a problem with mentioning "god" in the Pledge. It's the people who don't believe in ANY of those gods that have a problem.

    Not quite true. Muslims don't call their god "God" - they call their god "Allah" and would have problems calling their god "God." Buddhists do not believe in transcendant, personal a god or goddess. There are many religious which believe in multiple gods and goddesses and would have a problem with pledging allegiance to a nation that under a "God" instead of all the gods. (And some adherents to the 3 Abrahamic religions believe that speaking the name of God, Jehovah, or Allah aloud is a blasphemy, anyway.)

    The whole Under God thing really does reflect a Judeo-Christian bias - not just a bias against the nonreligious.

    Thanks, kurlykitty. Every time I've mentioned my position against the Pledge of Allegiance (in "real life"), people have jumped on me saying that all religions have a god, not just the christians, etc. I hadn't really had the chance to think it through and prove them wrong!
    "I don't know! I don't know why I did it, I don't know why I enjoyed it, and I don't know why I'll do it again!" -BART SIMPSON
  • rouquinnerouquinne Posts: 13,495Registered Users Curl Dabbler
    Gretchen wrote:
    No, they haven't ruled yet. That story is just a reporter's early interpretation of the justices' thoughts based on the questions they asked the lawyer presenting the case. Could be an accurate interpretation or it could be misreading the justices playing devil's advocate.

    The justices likely won't issue their opinions for months.

    darn!

    i should've remembered that it takes several months for opinions to be rendered.
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  • michellermicheller Posts: 470Registered Users
    kurlykitty wrote:
    Who Me? wrote:
    Yep, GuardianB, that's what I meant. It doesn't seem to me that Jews or Muslims or Buddhists, etc. have much of a problem with mentioning "god" in the Pledge. It's the people who don't believe in ANY of those gods that have a problem.

    Not quite true. Muslims don't call their god "God" - they call their god "Allah" and would have problems calling their god "God." .

    Actually, Muslims don't have "their God", as opposoed to the Christians' God, and the Jewish God. To Muslims, it is all the same God - there is only one. They believe in the Torah and the New Testament and the Koran. They revere Moses and Jesus as major prophets. The only difference is that they believe Muhammad was the last prophet sent from God, the same God that sent Moses and Jesus. And from all the Muslims I know (which is lots and lots), they have no problem calling God "God". Allah is just Arabic for God.

    I believe the "under God" portion of the pledge is just plain wrong. It clearly violates the separation of church and state that this country was supposedly founded on. But if you want ot go even further on this, one of my fellow co-workers was showing me some fancy certificate he got from the government upon his retirement in the Jag Corp., and it states, for the date, "In the year of our Lord, 2003". Give me a break!!
  • cailincailin Posts: 897Registered Users
    micheller wrote:
    But if you want ot go even further on this, one of my fellow co-workers was showing me some fancy certificate he got from the government upon his retirement in the Jag Corp., and it states, for the date, "In the year of our Lord, 2003". Give me a break!!

    I think that is what AD (Anno Danai(sp?)) means in Latin. I believe people write out "In the year of our Lord" to sound fancy..but I'm not sure.
  • papayahedpapayahed Posts: 1,282Registered Users
    Has anybody noticed the term B.C.E. (Before Christian era) is being used instead of B.C. (before christ)?
  • GretchenGretchen Administrator Posts: 8,424Administrators, Moderators Administrator
    rouquinne wrote:
    Gretchen wrote:
    No, they haven't ruled yet. That story is just a reporter's early interpretation of the justices' thoughts based on the questions they asked the lawyer presenting the case. Could be an accurate interpretation or it could be misreading the justices playing devil's advocate.

    The justices likely won't issue their opinions for months.

    darn!

    i should've remembered that it takes several months for opinions to be rendered.

    No biggie! You're WAY ahead of me in your understanding of US workings vs. my understanding of Canadian workings!

    Gretchen
    NaturallyCurly.com co-founder
    3A

    You are beautiful!
  • sew and sewsew and sew Posts: 3,443Registered Users
    No one should be forced to say it. I wish this country was truly under god, but I wouldn't say it because it's not. I would only pledge allegiance to a country I really believed to be. Not exactly the normal argument there, but reasons for not saying it actually go both ways. Do you or do you not accept that pledge? Do you just not care to say it? So be it.

    In terms of church and state seperation, if it's treated as involunteery, then there's resentment. But for those of you that are against it for this reason, do you see the words "under god" in the whole pledge as representative of making an oath to a religious figure and therefore in oppostion to your beliefs, or more of a traditional thing, where God is in there because the people who founded this country believed in him? Either way you probably consider it an infringement of church and state, but I'm curious in what sense do you disagree with the "churchiness" of it?
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  • CurlyGina2CurlyGina2 Posts: 1,048Registered Users
    When I was in grade school and had to say the pledge, I would exclude the words 'under god'. I would pause for a second whole everyone else said them. Yes, even in first grade I knew I did not want to make the pledge to god. I remember clearly, even if you didn't say the pledge, you were expected to sit respectfully and shut up while everyone else said it.
  • kurlykittykurlykitty Posts: 162Registered Users
    papayahed wrote:
    Has anybody noticed the term B.C.E. (Before Christian era) is being used instead of B.C. (before christ)?

    That's Before Common Era.

    CE (Common Era) is also replacing AD (Anno Domoni)
    "Beware the man of one book." --Latin proverb
  • SpringcurlSpringcurl Posts: 8,002Registered Users
    kurlykitty wrote:
    papayahed wrote:
    Has anybody noticed the term B.C.E. (Before Christian era) is being used instead of B.C. (before christ)?

    That's Before Common Era.

    CE (Common Era) is also replacing AD (Anno Domoni)

    The first time I'd ever heard that was about 10 years ago when I read a book called When God Was A Woman.

    I like that it's being used.
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  • rouquinnerouquinne Posts: 13,495Registered Users Curl Dabbler
    i have a silly question:

    does EVERY school in the US require this? or is the decision to have this said in the schools done on a school-by-school level, a school district level, a state level?

    i can't see schools in DC where you have the children of diplomatic corps members in attendance requiring it. or do they have separate schools for them and for children of UN delegates in NYC?

    because if i worked at the Canadian embassy in DC and sent my child to a school, i wouldn't want my child saying it.

    we have no special school for diplomats' children here in Ottawa. they attend private or public schools as their parents' wish.

    we don't have pledges, but i do recall singing "O Canada" every morning...
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