#SamDubose

scrills

And yet, we have another one.

Did anyone watch the body cam footage? What are your thoughts.

I had to watch it over and over again, and in slow motion to see what happened.

eveum

Yeah I watched. I couldn't really see what happened. It goes from talking relatively calmly to unprovoked murder in less than a second. My only thought right now is that cops in the US are out of control.

They have to be aware that the majority of the public either don't respect them or are afraid of them at this point in time. Why do they keep doing this and destroying any public relations that they had in the first place. With all of these high profile cases involving POC that keep coming, why? Do they just not care?

claudine191

I want to say all kinds of things in reply, eveum, but then we'll have another thread that is basically a battleground.

However, just in case there's any doubt, I agree with you.

eveum

I'm all for discussion and waiting for facts to come in before making a judgement. But this seems to be the most clearcut example of unprovoked lethal brutality I have seen in all of the cases recently, and I really don't see anyone arguing or trying to convince me that this was a police officer enacting good judgement and that it was provoked. Although of course we all know that some people will anyway.

At least they are charging the former police officer with murder. The cops who were complicit in lying about their account of what happened should at the very least be fired or punished for obstruction of justice. (I don't know much about law so someone correct me if that isn't right).

If the bodycams weren't present, we would never have known this was what happened and it would have been 2/3 police officers rehearsed accounts against a deceased man who could say nothing in his defense. I am expecting the media to start smearing his character like they have with Sandra Bland.

AngelaE8654

I think the cameras are showing us situations where police are abusing their power. Obviously, this has happened all along, but with cameras, we can now see it. As far as the "cops in America out of control" I suspect that these cases are a small portion of the whole. There are many good cops who do their jobs right, treat people well, and go home. You don't see or hear about them, why? Because there isn't any reason to. The "bad cops" make the news.

I have "shared" quite a few stories this year on Facebook of cops doing things like buying food with their own money for a family who didn't have anything to eat and bringing it to their home, buying a car seat with their own money for a family who could not afford one for their child, and on and on. These sorts of stories happen every day, too. But we don't need to "do" anything about those. The stories about cops abusing their power, we have to make a change. We have to set things right.

As far as this being an "American problem" the racist portion might be. The "Bad Cop" thing is not:

The shocking truth about police corruption in Britain » The Spectator

Revealed: How London's most corrupt police officer was snared by bug in car - Crime - News - London Evening Standard

UK Cop Caught Framing Citizen Journalist On Camera

Police Officers Abusing Their Power - Report

Policemen 'chased autistic man Faruk Ali for fun' - BBC News

scrills

eveum wrote: »

Yeah I watched. I couldn't really see what happened. It goes from talking relatively calmly to unprovoked murder in less than a second. My only thought right now is that cops in the US are out of control.

They have to be aware that the majority of the public either don't respect them or are afraid of them at this point in time. Why do they keep doing this and destroying any public relations that they had in the first place. With all of these high profile cases involving POC that keep coming, why? Do they just not care?

Ok, as far I could tell (again, I watched the slow motion version), when Dubose started the car to pull off, the cop pulled out the gun and shot. I think this is why the car kept going and he had to run after him. It was because the car was in gear and since Dubose was fatally wounded the car was out of control

Part of the reason I started this thread was to see if others could weigh in on what they saw as well.

eveum

I know that there are corrupt police everywhere is the world. I never said otherwise Angela. I said US cops are out of control because this is one story of a series of US specific events discussed in this board. No other country in the world right now is making consistent international headlines in their police race relation issues.

---

Yeah Scrills, I read that too. The guy appears to do some sort of forward roll immediately after though and i'm not sure why. It's hard to make out because it's so shaky.

AngelaE8654

eveum wrote: »

I know that there are corrupt police everywhere is the world. I never said otherwise Angela. I said US cops are out of control because this is one story of a series of US specific events discussed in this board. No other country in the world right now is making consistent international headlines in their police race relation issues.

Perhaps the countries aren't making "international headlines", but that doesn't mean it's not happening:

Racism probe police officers 'avoid sack', FOI request reveals - BBC News

Police face racism scandal after black man records abuse | UK news | The Guardian

'British society is institutionally racist', says Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe | Daily Mail Online

Five quit amid police racism storm | Daily Mail Online


https://www.rt.com/uk/218727-british-police-racism-rates/


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOiBXDfaVA0

Hundreds of police officers investigated for racist or threatening social media posts - Crime - UK - The Independent

The UK has 64.1 million people. The United States has 318.9 million people. We have 80% more people than your country does! The "chances" of more incidents like this rise as the population rises, but is the "percentage" of incidents compared to the whole higher? I suspect they probably are not.

Take the plank out of your own eye....

scrills

I just happened to come across this meme the other day

eveum

Erm. I did just say that I know that there are police who are corrupt everywhere. I am also aware that it happens in the UK. I haven't said anything to the contrary. Stop posting tons of UK news articles in an attempt to educate me on the country I live in over something I haven't disagreed with you about. It's almost like you're trying to start an argument with yourself, stop trying to stir **** up. Nobody has disagreed with you.

The subject of this thread happened in America. Which means I will talk about US police when we discuss it. If you choose to take some kind of special anti-American meaning from that then that is your problem. Not mine.

AngelaE8654

eveum wrote: »

My only thought right now is that cops in the US are out of control.

You didn't say "some cops". You didn't say "bad cops". You said cops in the US are out of control. And yes, that was an insult to the United States. How did you expect us to "take it"? Yes, we need to do something about the bad and racist cops. That is a real problem. But you made a "blanket" statement that includes all cops everywhere in the entire United States.

Tarrant police officer delivers groceries to woman caught stealing eggs at Dollar General | AL.com

Police Officer Shows Immense Kindness To Domestic Violence Victim | SF Globe

Denver cop buys family dinner following domestic disturbance call

These Drivers Thought They Were Getting Tickets. Instead, Police Gave Them Christmas Gifts.

eveum

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

You didn't say "some cops". You didn't say "bad cops". You said cops in the US are out of control. And yes, that was an insult to the United States. How did you expect us to "take it"? Yes, we need to do something about the bad and racist cops. That is a real problem. But you made a "blanket" statement that includes all cops everywhere in the entire United States.

]

Nobody here is taking it badly but you...and lmao I could not even tell you one thing I care less about. Do I seriously need to spell it out to you that I mean some cops or only the bad ones? It seems blindingly obvious to everyone else that I didn't mean every cop. If you want clarification every single time on exactly what percentage of police I am talking about you aren't going to get it. Move on.

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

The "chances" of more incidents like this rise as the population rises, but is the "percentage" of incidents compared to the whole higher? I suspect they probably are not.
.

Also this actually isn't true. In the UK there are extremely strict guidelines on police and the use of firearms. Apart from Northern Ireland, police officers don't carry firearms except in special circumstances. Most are armed with self defense items. And certainly regular street police would not be carrying. There are of course armed response units. Here this is completely normal. It's pretty obvious from any stats you read that UK citizens are much less likely to be killed by police. Nobody has been reported killed by UK police in 2015.

AngelaE8654

Only a Jr. High girl would care what "everybody else was thinking". You said something offensive and someone took offense to it. It's as simple as that.

Now, I have said over and over that we need to do something about the bad and racist cops we have over here. Far be it from me to not want something done about this large problem. However, even in the UK, there are times when police must shoot people:

Police shot and wounded both suspects, who were later arrested.

One dead after machete attack near London barracks

So the 'shooting' wasn't lethal. But these people beheaded someone on London streets!! I'm not sure a lethal shooting wouldn't be "called for" in this case.

BotticelliBrit

Yes, but you'll notice how the police in the UK wounded the suspects in that case - extremely dangerous suspects - rather than killing them. As opposed to a lot of US police (not all) who are wounding and killing innocent civilians.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and I think scills's meme speaks for itself.

eveum

Yes, there probably are times when a police officer should shoot armed people in order to protect their own lives. But again it will most likely to be rubber bullets. However this is not nearly as likely to happen as it is in the US. The majority of the UK population do not carry guns, and so police do not carry guns. They carry tasers as well as other self defense items. UK police were also surveyed and 82% of them don't want to carry firearms.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this:

" I'm not sure a lethal shooting wouldn't be "called for" in this case."

I am more than aware that there is police corruption in the UK as well as everywhere else, but at the end of the day they are supposed to apprehend wrong-doers, not make judgement on whether or not the person deserves to die before they have even stood trial. We don't have a gun culture so luckily it's not as likely that cops will get to make that decision for themselves.

AngelaE8654

BotticelliBrit wrote: »

Yes, but you'll notice how the police in the UK wounded the suspects in that case - extremely dangerous suspects - rather than killing them. As opposed to a lot of US police (not all) who are wounding and killing innocent civilians.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and I think scills's meme speaks for itself.

Again, do you not think a lethal shooting would have been called for in this instance? So you're glad that the terrorists were still alive, even after beheading a UK soldier? You'll be glad, all right...until it's you or your family who gets beheaded next time around.


I haven't proven it, but my Los Angeles born and raised husband believes that the percentage of "crazy people" rises as the population rises. For instance, in a rural area where there aren't very many people, the percent of "crazies" might be less than one percent. In an area that's larger, the percentage of "crazies" might be 2 or 3 percent. In an area as populated as Los Angeles, with millions of people, the percentage of crazies might be 10-15 percent. It's possible this might be something sociologists could look at. If it's true, it might be a cause for different types of "policing" than what we have now and that might reduce some of these killings.

As far as the lethal shootings in the U.S., I agree that there are some that should never have happened. I am not totally sure how to solve the problem but perhaps there should be some sort of "investigative group" comprised of all different sorts of people who are not tied to the Police Department who could look at the shootings.

Once again, I am 100% for body cams on the cops. So what if some situations call for privacy? Those situations can be kept under lock and key unless released by a judge, just like any other "search warrant". If all cops were wearing body cams at all times, then if and when a shooting takes place, it should be relatively easy to see everything that went into it. It also would probably keep some of the "bad" officers from firing their weapons so quickly. I wish citizen groups would call for body cams in every police department, everywhere.

eveum

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

BotticelliBrit wrote: »

Again, do you not think a lethal shooting would have been called for in this instance? So you're glad that the terrorists were still alive, even after beheading a UK soldier?

HHAHAHAH. She's at it again people! If you don't believe in a justice system that allows criminals to stand trial instead of the police making the decision as to whether someone deserves to die you are promoting terrorism!!!! Didn't you know?!

I'm sure a lot of people would want these people dead, but that isn't their decision to make and we don't have the death penalty here. That type of attitude of cops choosing who gets to live and who gets to die by THEIR opinion is extremely dangerous and EXACTLY why Sam Dubose and every other high profile case happened this year.

The UK police did their ****ing job. They apprehended the offender and then the courts will decide what happens. That is what a civilised society does.

Piglet

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

BotticelliBrit wrote: »

Yes, but you'll notice how the police in the UK wounded the suspects in that case - extremely dangerous suspects - rather than killing them. As opposed to a lot of US police (not all) who are wounding and killing innocent civilians.

A picture is worth a thousand words, and I think scills's meme speaks for itself.

Again, do you not think a lethal shooting would have been called for in this instance? So you're glad that the terrorists were still alive, even after beheading a UK soldier?

I, for one, do not want a situation where the police can act as judge, jury and executioner. That's not the sort of country I'd like to live in,

BotticelliBrit

eveum wrote: »

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

BotticelliBrit wrote: »

Again, do you not think a lethal shooting would have been called for in this instance? So you're glad that the terrorists were still alive, even after beheading a UK soldier?

HHAHAHAH. She's at it again people! If you don't believe in a justice system that allows criminals to stand trial instead of the police making the decision as to whether someone deserves to die you are promoting terrorism!!!! Didn't you know?!

I'm sure a lot of people would want these people dead, but that isn't their decision to make and we don't have the death penalty here. That type of attitude of cops choosing who gets to live and who gets to die by THEIR opinion is extremely dangerous and EXACTLY why Sam Dubose and every other high profile case happened this year.

The UK police did their ****ing job. They apprehended the offender and then the courts will decide what happens. That is what a civilised society does.

I know, right? Disagree with Angela and that means you love rapists and terrorists. WHAT AWFUL PEOPLE WE ARE!!!

Seriously though, I'm commending our police for being able to bring a dangerous criminal in alive so that our justice system can deal with them accordingly and decide a punishment, which is the correct thing to do.

Let's also point out in the UK we don't have the death penalty, a lot of our officers don't carry firearms etc. Basically, killing someone is a rare and last resort. As opposed to certain US police killing whoever they feel like, guilty or innocent.

AngelaE8654

eveum wrote: »

HHAHAHAH. She's at it again people! If you don't believe in a justice system that allows criminals to stand trial instead of the police making the decision as to whether someone deserves to die you are promoting terrorism!!!! Didn't you know?!

I'm sure a lot of people would want these people dead, but that isn't their decision to make and we don't have the death penalty here. That type of attitude of cops choosing who gets to live and who gets to die by THEIR opinion is extremely dangerous and EXACTLY why Sam Dubose and every other high profile case happened this year.

The UK police did their ****ing job. They apprehended the offender and then the courts will decide what happens. That is what a civilised society does.

Because the terrorists, who had already beheaded someone and tried to kill another, rushed the cops when they arrived! They KILLED A SOLDIER in broad daylight with dozens of witnesses. What did the cops think they were going to do to them?? These people were a DEADLY MENACE. Deadly.

BotticelliBrit

I'm unsure what your point is

eveum

I know the story, I know it was a soldier, you don't need to recap it thank you. We are not missing anything. As said before, cops should not be judge, jury and executioner. That kind of attitude is 100% dangerous and why Sam Dubose was murdered. Cops do not have the right to decide whether who they are apprehending deserves to die, they do not get to decide punishment.

The police apprehended the person, successfully without deadly force. Why in your opinion do they need to do any more than that? That is not their job. It's up to the law to decide the punishment.

BotticelliBrit

I'm finding it odd how us being angry that yet another POC died because of yet another US police officer has become a debate about how good the UK police force are.

Don't you forget it's a little insulting to all the innocent black people who have been killed to shift the light from US police officers by saying 'yeah, but look at the UK. Some of their cops took 10 minutes to get to a crime scene. And they didn't even kill the criminals!'

Rimi

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

I think the cameras are showing us situations where police are abusing their power. Obviously, this has happened all along, but with cameras, we can now see it. As far as the "cops in America out of control" I suspect that these cases are a small portion of the whole. There are many good cops who do their jobs right, treat people well, and go home. You don't see or hear about them, why? Because there isn't any reason to. The "bad cops" make the news.

I have "shared" quite a few stories this year on Facebook of cops doing things like buying food with their own money for a family who didn't have anything to eat and bringing it to their home, buying a car seat with their own money for a family who could not afford one for their child, and on and on. These sorts of stories happen every day, too. But we don't need to "do" anything about those. The stories about cops abusing their power, we have to make a change. We have to set things right.

As far as this being an "American problem" the racist portion might be. The "Bad Cop" thing is not:

The shocking truth about police corruption in Britain » The Spectator

Revealed: How London's most corrupt police officer was snared by bug in car - Crime - News - London Evening Standard

UK Cop Caught Framing Citizen Journalist On Camera

Police Officers Abusing Their Power - Report

Policemen 'chased autistic man Faruk Ali for fun' - BBC News

I have no idea why you would choose to get offended by this. It doesn't need to be, "Your cops are just as bad as, if not worse than, our cops!"

Obviously Eveum doesn't hate America, or anything ridiculous like that. And if she did, who cares? If only you were more outraged by the actual injustice of this man's murder than Eveum's statement about American police officers.

AngelaE8654

eveum wrote: »

I know the story, I know it was a soldier, you don't need to recap it thank you. We are not missing anything. As said before, cops should not be judge, jury and executioner. That kind of attitude is 100% dangerous and why Sam Dubose was murdered. Cops do not have the right to decide whether who they are apprehending deserves to die, they do not get to decide punishment.

I agree with you about that, but if you were a cop and someone who had already beheaded someone just minutes before "rushed" at you, what would you think they were going to do? Leave you alive and breathing? How different is a cop from a soldier in the eyes of someone like this, anyway? If I were the cop, I would think that this murderer who was "rushing" at me was going to try to kill me!! I'm actually kind of disgusted that your cops are such bad shots.

BotticelliBrit

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

I'm actually kind of disgusted that your cops are such bad shots.

I'm kind of disgusted that you're criticising officers of the law for abiding by the law and bringing in a criminal so they can be brought to justice by our legal system.

eveum

BotticelliBrit wrote: »

I'm finding it odd how us being angry that yet another POC died because of yet another US police officer has become a debate about how good the UK police force are.

Don't you forget it's a little insulting to all the innocent black people who have been killed to shift the light from US police officers by saying 'yeah, but look at the UK. Some of their cops took 10 minutes to get to a crime scene. And they didn't even kill the criminals!'

I think the problem with cops enacting their own individual judgement on who lives and who dies is 100% applicable to all of the US cases. I agree with you Botticelli.

AngelaE8654

BotticelliBrit wrote: »

I'm finding it odd how us being angry that yet another POC died because of yet another US police officer has become a debate about how good the UK police force are.

Don't you forget it's a little insulting to all the innocent black people who have been killed to shift the light from US police officers by saying 'yeah, but look at the UK. Some of their cops took 10 minutes to get to a crime scene. And they didn't even kill the criminals!'

If I said "the cops in the UK are out of control" if there was an incident we were discussing you, as a UK citizen, might be offended by that as it's a blanket statement that includes all cops, everywhere.

Yes, we have a problem with too many shootings by the cops and incidences of racism and the like. But every, single police officer in the entire United States (every city, everywhere) is NOT "out of control" and that is what the blanket statement eveum made meant.

AngelaE8654

eveum wrote: »

I think the problem with cops enacting their own individual judgement on who lives and who dies is 100% applicable to all of the US cases. I agree with you Botticelli.

So you can be the "judge and the jury" when it suits you, huh? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL Once again, you've made a "blanket statement" that includes 100% of the cases.

BotticelliBrit

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

BotticelliBrit wrote: »

I'm finding it odd how us being angry that yet another POC died because of yet another US police officer has become a debate about how good the UK police force are.

Don't you forget it's a little insulting to all the innocent black people who have been killed to shift the light from US police officers by saying 'yeah, but look at the UK. Some of their cops took 10 minutes to get to a crime scene. And they didn't even kill the criminals!'

If I said "the cops in the UK are out of control" if there was an incident we were discussing you, as a UK citizen, might be offended by that as it's a blanket statement that includes all cops, everywhere.

Yes, we have a problem with too many shootings by the cops and incidences of racism and the like. But every, single police officer in the entire United States (every city, everywhere) is NOT "out of control" and that is what the blanket statement eveum made meant.

Cops in the US are out of control. You'll notice Eveum didn't say 'ALL cops in the US'. She just said 'cops', because some cops are. It goes without saying that she didn't mean every single law enforcement officer in the US was racist and murderous, or whatever. However, if you need that spelled out to you, then this is me doing so.

Josephine

AngelaE8654 wrote: »

Yes, we have a problem with too many shootings by the cops and incidences of racism and the like. But every, single police officer in the entire United States (every city, everywhere) is NOT "out of control" and that is what the blanket statement eveum made meant.

But it does seem like that. And it scares people even more. And anyways, how is it different than you thinking most illegal immigrants are criminals?