Free Range vs Helicopter Parenting

Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
Is the title of this HuffPost Live discussion about parents who recently got reported and are now being investigated by CPS for allowing their 2 children (6 & 10) to walk home from a near by park, alone, one Saturday afternoon. I know we have discussed similar topics/stories in the past. The mom reported for letting her daughter play at a near by park while she worked at McDonalds comes to mind. I thought his asked some pretty good questions.

Huffington Post Live - Free-Range Parenting vs. Helicopter Parenting - Multiple Mayhem Mamma

"Where do we draw the line?

Where do a parent’s right to making a decision about their child or children end and the rest of the world’s responsibilities begin?

Working from the assumption that most of us have the best interest of children in mind, does that give us the right to butt in where we don’t belong?"


I know my opinion on the matter. This crosses several lines with me. Not every parent has to do the same thing. I was born in 75 and like the author, grew up with latch key kids who walked home from the park (or took long hikes in the woods in my case) and lived. We even managed to avoid white vans and strangers with razor blade filled candy. When comparing how my friends turned out, the products of standard, independence & responsibility based parenting born out of necessity for the parents to work and an obligation to turn out functioning members of society, to the products of severe helicopter parenting I have personally met... I would rather let my hypothetical child run on the edge of a cliff, with scissors. Not really, but I have met some tragic adults who were never taught to function on their own due to extreme helicopter parenting.
When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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Comments

  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    This is a clip from the linked CNN article

    Most states don't have laws on the books regarding how old a child must be to be left alone. Maryland is one of the few that does, stating that children under 8 years old may not be left unattended in a house or car. There isn't anything stipulated within the law about kids being alone outside.

    This is not the first time the Meitivs have been approached by CPS. In October, a few days after Danielle Meitiv let the kids play at a playground around the block from their house and walk home by themselves, two CPS workers came to her door after they were contacted by someone mostly likely from the neighborhood, Meitiv said. That case was eventually closed.

    "We have no problem with people looking out for our kids. That's actually what people always did, look out for each other," Meitiv said. "It's the idea that looking out for them then becomes reporting them to the police and making it criminal ... that it becomes somehow this is neglect. My kids were playing at the park."

    ^ I personally take a lot of calls about kids walking... anywhere. "They look young or young-ish. I don't know. It's just weird and doesn't seem right." It was the normal not too long ago. Never seeing kids out is strange. BUT it's not only kids. It's also women or adults at night. "I feel like someone needs to check on her. It's 9pm. Women shouldn't be walking alone at 9pm." WTH year is this? Maybe she does. Maybe her car broke down. Maybe Michael Myers is hiding in a near by bush but most people have cell phones these days, as you know :-/. I often wonder when it became illegal to walk somewhere in the United States.

    ETA: One of the most disheartning things shown in the video is a poll results asking if the government should pass laws requiring adult supervision at parks. Almost 50% of the people asked believed 12 year olds should still have constant adult supervision. In 3 short years they will have the ability to get in a car and drive but a parent still need to watch them walk and swing? The CNN link also mentioned confused and worried parents in Florida because current state laws do not specify what age your child can or can not be left alone so your 14 year old may warrant a visit from CPS. It is ridiculous and people do not talk to each other or parents anymore. It's call the cops to do it for you because you are such a good, terrified and caring person.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    I am going to leave this here because it ties into the whole conversation of those who are terrified of someone waiting on every corner to harm your child.

    Family Fakes Gunpoint Kidnapping of 6-Year-Old to Teach Him Not to Be Nice to Strangers - Hit & Run : Reason.com

    A Lincoln County, Missouri, woman grew concerned that her 6-year-old nephew was "too nice"—too liable to be taken advantage of by a stranger, according to The Washington Post. And so, with the permission of the boy's mother, she hired a gas station attendant to kidnap him at gunpoint, tie him up, blindfold him, and drive him to a basement (the boy's own, unbeknownst to him).


    ^ Sadly, that is not new. In 1982 my 1st grade teacher arranged an experiment of sort. She had 3 men, wearing masks, burst into our classroom with guns and kidnap one student. We had no idea. That was during the stranger danger/inflated kidnapping stats/moral panic time period. They recieved an a** chewing from more than one parent. This is also the same teacher that tried to feed us Elmer's Glue Paste.

    While looking over articles I have seen people try to pass this off as behavior related to political party or religious ideologies. It crosses all lines when addressing fear based parents. Just look at kids getting suspended for chewing pop tarts into a kinda sorta gun shape. It is not D vs R.

    *It is however the same year Dr. Sears Baby Book or The Baby Bible was released. He and a female, liberal, counter part started pushing attachment parenting (Helicopter is Attachment gone wrong) and the idea to be on demand/with your child/24-7 soon after. These theories were also established in the school system, but only for the youngest students, when I was in 5th or 6th grade. *Note thats fear based as in plays into the natural parental fear that you will mess your child up. You have to do A-F to raise a secure child with great self esteem. Never let them cry or it may cause brain damage. Always be there, also backed up by Mary A's "The Strange Situation" experiment which showed children who flipped out and cried when their mom left the room were secure and attached properly. Self Esteem and no negatives/failures became the central theme and has been present in the school system for far too long.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    When it comes to the FR vs HP (weird to even hear a label. ppl didn't label parenting when i was growing up), I have wondered what some parents meant when I came across blogs about being judged for sitting on the park bench as your child plays and not being on your feet, running after them, with your arms out. I guess this comment from an irrational fear blog sums it up.

    https://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2014/08/irrational_fear.html

    I have a different opinion in that I am pro-hovering, albeit not insane hovering.

    I have six kids ages 13 and under and I hover. It's not just about the paranoia, it's about the priority. Hovering takes effort. Parents who put in that effort tend to be better parents and have better kids. They have kids with limits, i.e. self-control. They also hang out with other kids with similar expectations.

    Also, hovering is a signal. When I see another parent hovering, it's a signal to me that this parent and his/her child are probably okay. It the same thing when you see a child that has taken a bath recently vs one that hasn't. It signals how much time/effort this child has received.

    Finally parents that hover have children that grow up slower. This is a very good thing in today's society.

    Forwarding this URL a few select "Mommy Blogs" will produce enough comments to be a worthy DDOS . (evil laugh)

    ^^ How is it even possible to compare a parent who sits back and reads as their child plays to someone who does not even give their child a bath?Thats doing nothing but normalizing and minimalising a neurosis. I grew up with kids who had no running water, electricity, could not read, autism that was not diagnosed due to the time period and complete dead beat parents.
    Not even closely related to excessive hovering which can produce children who also can hardly read & write thanks to mom & dad putting in the time to do their homework for them and adults who have no idea how to peel fruit themselves. True story.

    ETA: Bless the one commenter who said this is why a democracy does not work in America. Haha. You don't vote on parenting theories... You leave people alone unless you see serious neglect. Not sitting on a park bench as their child plays but no food, bruises... neglect/abuse. The problem right now is the monopoly established by some years ago, thru the education system. I went thru the phase (as a child) when it was no longer okay for a parent to spank their child and it became abuse, which could lead to removal of your child. Parents who let their child walk somewhere or sit in the car for 10 minutes are apparently the new lower class and the "what if" game can get you arrested/your child taken. That shows you how smart these parents are.

    * It's hard for me to see how out of whack my own mom is, who was a former DSS employee. She gets nervous because my cousin, who lives beside me, lets his play outside and walk up the hill to my house w/o supervision. She let me spend 4 hours in the woods with my cousins, w/o supervision. That was after she went thru her kidnap panic in the early 80s. She now says, "you can't do that anymore. you can't. it's like spanking." No. Letting your child go to the bathroom alone, sit in the car for 5 minutes, walk somewhere (all at appropriate ages based on the child) is not the same as beating your child. Not intentionally slowing down the development of your child is NOT neglect. Teaching them how to look both ways & cross the road and then allowing them to do it when they feel ready is not abuse or neglect. Her problem... She watches way too much 24-7 news.

    Yes, yes I know but a PS on this. From the blog... 50 Million Dollar ?? (when talking about non infants/tots, kids who know how and can walk across a parking lot and into the store if they have to or kids old enough to turn the key and put on the AC without knocking the car out of gear and facing death alone and most importantly kid who are only left in the car for a short period as opposed to hours.

    About 300 children are injured in traffic accidents every day -- and about two die. That’s a real risk. So if you truly wanted to protect your kid, you'd never drive anywhere with him. But let’s put that aside. So you take him, and you get to the store where you need to run in for a minute and you’re faced with a decision. Now, people will say you committed a crime because you put your kid 'at risk.' But the truth is, there’s some risk to either decision you make.” So, say you take the kid inside with you. There’s some risk you'll both be hit by a crazy driver in the parking lot. There’s some risk someone in the store will go on a shooting spree and shoot your kid. There’s some risk he'll slip on the ice on the sidewalk outside the store and fracture his skull. There’s some risk no matter what you do. So why is one choice illegal and one is OK?

    Because 100-150 kids a year get abducted by a stranger (from a locked car????) or because some infants/toddlers (usually car seat age restrained children) have sadly died while being left in a car?
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Registered Users Posts: 17,898 Curl Virtuoso
    I'm somewhere btwn the two. I think my ex-husband is a little too free-range but there isn't anything I can do about it.

    I think it's more dangerous nowadays bc ppl are so much more transient and we don't know our neighbors like we did back in the day. Now I have no idea if so-and-so has lived on my block since the houses were built or if he is some random pedophile wandering thru looking for his next victim.

    We all knew our neighbors when we were kids. Our parents knew them. We knew their last names, we knew if they were married or divorced or widowed, if they had kids, if they walked their dog around the block every evening. We knew where they worked. We knew they didn't pose a threat. And there were always other kids out when the weather was good; kids never had to worry about being lone targets.

    One thing that is better now tho is that fewer little kids are getting hit by cars. I knew so many kids growing up who had been hit by cars! One was even killed. Now it is almost unheard of...

  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    I'm somewhere btwn the two. I think my ex-husband is a little too free-range but there isn't anything I can do about it.

    I think its more dangerous nowadays bc ppl are so much more transient and we don't know our neighbors like we did back in the day. Now I have no idea if so-and-so has lived on my block since the houses were built or if he is some random pedophile wondering thru looking for his next victim.

    We all knew our neighbors when we were kids. Our parents knew them. We knew their last names, we knew if they were married or divorced or widowed, if they had kids, if they walked their dog around the block every evening. We knew where they worked. We knew they didn't pose a threat. And there were always other kids out when the weather was good; kids never had to worry about being lone targets.

    One thing that is better now tho is that fewer little kids are getting hit by cars. I knew so many kids growing up who had been hit by cars! One was even killed. Now it is almost unheard of...


    I still hear of a pretty good number of kid getting ran over, but it's in the driveway at their house and by a family member. Thay happened to one of my former co workers a few years ago. Sweetest little baby girl. 2 years old and had 4 other siblings. She snuck out the door and behind her grandmothers car as she was pulling out.


    The thing that gets me is it's all phobia based, and granted, it's perfectly normal for parents to have anxiety, fears and phobias but I don't find it normal to legislate them. *Or arrest on a "what if" this happened basis. You might end up with laws like no one under 16 can walk thru a parking lot without an adult, after a couple 16 and under year olds have something happen to them in a parking lot. Before you would have gotten programs like Code Name Adam, Fingerprinting your children, programs that help provide car seats/make sure they are installed correctly, etc. Not investigated for letting your 7 year old child walk 1/2 a mile or ride a bike.* There have been children and parents hit in parking lots or while walking down the sidewalk, children shot in grocery stores, terrible accidents related to falls, etc. I couldn't even begin to consider leaving a child or a dog in a car on a hot or cold day but I have seen parents attack others on forums for putting their kids in the car, locking the doors, putting their keys in their pockets, walking 3 spots down and returning the cart, and going back to the car. Flat out tell them they should have had all 3 kids with them the whole time, they would call the cops on them,, and hope their children are removed. If that be the case, they should be put under the jail for putting their kids in a car... EVER!! On that note, some now shop on line and refuse to leave the house unless they have to. Having them with you is no guarantee. It's a comfort to the mom. It's like people are never recovering from postpartum anxiety after having a first child. It just gets worse.

    I do agree, people don't seem to know their neighbors a lot anymore. I had none growing up and lived by a highway with mountains behind me. So I roamed those. I don't think it would take much effort for anyone to ask a kid if they are okay, and go from there... If you see one in a park, or in a car, etc. As opposed to kidnap, molest, death, death, neglectful parent, call cops. :) Mom might be 4 feet away.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    It does all seem to be based on kidnap prevention tips. Never leave your child alone, ever, not even for one second. That's not reasonable. It really isn't and some are so paranoid that they take their children to the bathroom with them, in their own house. They make the child sit in the bathroom as they shower. I'm talking 8, 9, 10 year olds. Parents who have never let their 15 year old out of their sight, other than for school, and they will be driving soon. It's becoming the only sign of being a good mom and doesn't allow transition for parent or child when they get in that car & take off. Or go to college... The last time I saw it this bad and saw a growing numbers or arrests and investigations was during the kidnap/molestation/satanic panic of the 80s. (But I never knew a parent who went to those lengths then. They normally calmed so they didn't put their anxiety on their child but many lost it). It was pure Victim Culture then and based on parental phobias, that were preyed upon.

    ETA: I understand stricter laws about leaving your kids in the car in, say, Southern CA. Florida. Texas... Places where it's 119 degrees. I did hear that some have stipulations like when you are pulling up at Day Care to drop off one kid, you can't leave your 4 year old in the running car while you walk 20 steps to the door and hand the youngest to a teacher. Idk if thats true but if it is, it's maddness and more about your kid getting napped than a law probhiting death from over heating. People will call about a 12 year old sitting in a car. Watch a mom get out, run to the mail drop box on the street and run back to the car & call 911 because an infant is in it. That is irrational. I do not buy many of the baby died in car accidentally stories. Not unless it's somewhere horribly hot. Usually it's hours. One woman in my area but her 4 year old in the trunk while she worked on a hot summer day. I can't tell you how many calls I take from hysterical moms who locked their infant in the car. Lol. It's like the infamous episodw of Modern Family. Just stand there and scream or run around screaming. The newborn is not getting up and taking off and I have help on the way. I don't want to sound mean but it always tickles me. I picture a woman with a trash can running around the parking lot. I'll save you!!! It's worst first be it yours or someone elses.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    Things like this piss me off for parents. It's fear mongering at it's finest amd written by a "professional nanny".


    I will just be a second. I am ...

    …running into the ATM.

    …going into the station to pay for gas.

    …dropping mail off at the post office.

    …running back into the house to grab a water.

    …picking up the dry cleaning.

    …stopping to get milk.

    ONE SECOND IS ALL IT TAKES FOR SOMETHING HORRIFIC TO HAPPEN.

    Although several times a year we hear stories on the news that recount how a car was stolen with a baby inside at the gas station, the message still hasn’t been heard loud and clear that it is never acceptable to leave your child in the car, even for a moment.

    Thinking of Leaving Your Kid Alone in the Car for Just a Second? Think Again. - Momtastic

    That has to be great for the nanny business. She goes on to say being alome terrifies your child, 30 children a year die in hot cars (compared to 2 day in wrecks and 300 injuries a day in wrecks). I would not be a huge advocate for constantly leaving a kid in a car but I can no way advocate for complete hysterics when someone returns a shopping cart a few feet away. PS to her, most moms who lock their babies in the car have not "left them". 99% of the time it happens as they are trying to get them in and out.


    These talk about Kidnapping being common childhood fears. In one, people ask the OP to go to her childs school and find out if the phobia came from there. Did a police officer come and give safety tips, this, that ? Some recommend therapy. I have not read all but no one said is she feeling your fears? Can she tell you never feel comfortable letting her out of your sight?Do you talk about kidnapping safety plans often? My parents were horrible about it. Everytime we walked in a store I got a kidnapping lecture. I usually heard something about it every day, until I got them to understand that I was not a little idiot and understood to find a woman that worked in a store if I got lost, go to the front desk/customer service, don't get in a car with someone I don't know, be aware of my surroundings, there are mean and bad people out there... 24-7 news cycles with kidnapping stories and constant Amber Alerts (most done by a parent) coming in to their parents over social media could be a source too. Some take Special pictures of their kids every 6 mo in case they are kidnapped. Stories have been done on kids who can't sleep at night because their parents have pushed the kidnap fear too hard. It's weird enough to know you are being fingerprinted in case someone steals you.

    Help me quell my daughter's fear. - kidnapping | Ask MetaFilter

    Childhood Fears | Focus on the Family

    ETA: The panic really built from 79-81 when we were kids. In 81, when Adam W was taken, I was 5 and in Kindergarten. So I went thru the initial terror with my parents and got the important talks. The next year is when my 1st grade teacher had 3 men in masks with guns burst into our classroom amd kidnap a classmate, without any of us knowing it was an "exercise". See the above story about the Aunt who paid a man to fake kidnap her nephew a few weeks ago and the parents who want to start fake kidnapping businesses. The parents have left the building. Not all but it's a bad sign. Been there, done that.

    ** Side note about hover victims** Sometimes I feel like I’m in a box and nobody can come into it and I’m not allowed out of it,” 10-year-old Brianna explains to Skenazy on the show.
    That’s because Phyllis Almonte won’t allow playdates, particularly sleepovers, because she’s “worried about Brianna being in strangers’ houses, changing clothes and privacy.”
    She even accompanies Brianna into the stall of the ladies’ room at the mall in case she comes into contact with germs or a stranger makes an approach while Phyllis waits outside.
    Son Zach, 12, is banned from riding his bike anywhere outside of their driveway because Almonte fears he could be hit by a car on the road. “It feels like I am 2 years old still and my mom has to watch and correct what I am doing if I make a mistake,” laments Zach. “It feels like I’m trapped almost.” If that’s not bad enough, when the kids are playing in the backyard, they have to keep in touch with their mom via walkie-talkie. “I constantly fear that they will get abducted or hurt,” Almonte, 47, an executive assistant, admits to Skenazy on the show before tearfully adding: “I know what I’m doing is not good, but I can’t help it.”

    ^^ Thats my co worker except her kids are 13 and almost 16. She doesn't do the walkie talkie thing but I am not sure her kids play a lot. It's always been sit indoors and never do anything unless it's with mom or a school function. No birthday parties at other kids houses, unless she can manage to go too. No sleep overs. Kids can come to their house but they can not go to others because of privacy/molestation/abduction. Because of the things running thru their moms head that she has never once fought to check, access or breathe thru. She on the other hand ran complety free as a child, and you can believe her parents had the same dark thoughts but they had to check them from time to time so their child could have a life, grow and learn. Hers don't, unless it's school related. Just allowed to walk down the driveway to church (literally at the bottom of their road) a few months ago, without an adult. Never been on over night school trips without a parent. She will lose it when her daughter starts driving in a couple months and her daughter may lose it when she gets a taste of freedom. She won't know how to act. So weird to me. I was doing sleep overs at 4. I asked. It took a few times before I made it all night but I was proud when I did. Of course my family had to get to know my friends family (and my dad probably ask the local police if there had been any trouble at their houses. Lol). It really floors me to think of 10 year olds being spoon fed so they don't choke, moms still cutting up 24 year olds food in to tiny pieces, kids losing muscle tone amd development because parents carry them everywhere (even at 14) or because the puree all their food so they don't choke. They never chew, have speech problems... Again, left the building YET CPS is investigating families who let their 10 & 6 year olds, who have been worked with/taught and were ready, walk home a couple blocks from the park because that's "abnormal". I think it's the evolution of attachment and then helicopter (because that's attachment gone wrong) parenting with an unhealthy dose of constant terror. It's not everyone but is somehow the norm
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    This is what I never understood about AP, which is completely different than attachment theory, what several studies were based on but Sears took it to an insane level with crap studies to back it up. (I took several early childhood development classes in the 90's when Sears was Gawd. Still is)

    "Attachment parenting encourages responding to your baby immediately each time he cries, or better still, before he cries. But parents don't get a chance to learn their child's different cries if they always pre-empt the crying. Is your child hungry? Gassy? Tired? Soiled? Parents learn to develop an ear for their baby’s distinct cries. But in an attachment model, the parents run at the slightest fuss, never giving them the opportunity to recognize their child’s needs.

    Babies will often put themselves back to sleep if they're given the chance—but these children never get the chance to self-soothe, to calm themselves down, one of the most important tools a child can develop at an early age. I know eight-year-olds who can’t go on sleepovers because they can’t leave their mother’s bed.

    Some people argue that throughout history, all over the world, parents have kept their children by their side at all times. Yet our Western culture hardly resembles these cultures. (Did these parents have commutes and nine-to-five jobs?) Parents need to be able to focus at work, not be sleep-deprived, and devote their affection and attention to their kids when they get home."

    The Perils of Attachment Parenting - Atlantic Mobile

    ^^ Right!! That is basically HP but it tends to extend faaaaaaar beyond the needed ages while still focusing on never letting your wittle 18 year old baby feel distress. Step in and do everything for them. And then I get deal with the product of that on my job and it is scary. No idea how to function at 26, 31, etc. The whole fear machine really ties into this too. Now you have kids under constant video surveillance while in their cribs. If that is not good enough, you can now keep constant track of their heart rate, blood ox levels, and ofher vital signs. Just like they are in the NICU and seriously ill!!!!

    Owlet, The Smart Baby Bootie, Raises $1.85 Million | TechCrunch

    (i'm sure no parents will go OCD with that)

    The suggestion to take special in case of kidnapping ID type photos every 6 mo (why? parents take photos non stop), and things like this...

    Like fingerprints, dental imprints are unique to every person, so bite impressions serve an accurate method of identification--not even identical twins have the same bite characteristics. A Toothprints® impression also captures saliva, which is a powerful source of human scent, thus making the wafer effective for scent-dog tracking. The saliva also provides a DNA sample.

    https://www.yoursafechild.com/parents-toothprintsr.html

    ^^ Do your own dental impressions for body identification when your child is taken and suffers a death so horrible, no one can identify them. *Sorry, but that is the morbid reality of this and if you take your child to the dentist, as one hopefully does, they have dental records. God forbid, if dogs are needed, an article of your childs clothes will do. Most the time that's for searches when a child wonders off which happens but normally has good results. Idk why you send DNA off to some unknown company*. All the while, stranger abduction stats have remained the same since the 80s. 100-200 a year. People in Denmark leave babies outside of restaurants, in strollers, sleeping, while they eat inside and they have an average of 75 stranger abductions a year. Meanwhile our country is trying to establish laws saying 5-12 year olds can't be at *school bus stops without an adult (and with the way parents are calling the police on other parents, that's probably 1 adult per child, like every parent works schedules that allow) and criminalizing parents for leaving a 11 year old in the car while they shop. It shows the difference in mentalities. *And no, I couldn't leave a baby on the street while I ate but this has gone over the edge, crashed & burned, about 12 times. Poor kids strapped up, in, down and under 24-7 protective custody well into the teen years or beyond.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Registered Users Posts: 31,259 Curl Connoisseur
    I like something in the middle.

    I was born in 1962, and had free range to go anywhere in town by the time I was 4 years old. It was supposedly safe in the "good old days", but I did meet up with some bad situations...sexually assaulted by a neighbor's visiting grandson when I was 4 or 5, successfully avoided a stranger trying to get me into his car when I was about 7, etc.

    With my own kids, I preferred to have their alone time at home. I let them walk places alone and cross non-busy streets, starting about age 8, but I knew where they were going and checked with the adult at the other end to make sure they got there safe. I did leave them alone to babysit themselves at ages some people might find too young, but they were OK, and always had access to me via phone. I left them in the car sometimes (with a/c on) if I was just running into a store for a minute (a real minute, not the fake minute some parents do). They've all grown up OK, and are independent doers and thinkers, so I must have done OK.
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    I like something in the middle.

    I was born in 1962, and had free range to go anywhere in town by the time I was 4 years old. It was supposedly safe in the "good old days", but I did meet up with some bad situations...sexually assaulted by a neighbor's visiting grandson when I was 4 or 5, successfully avoided a stranger trying to get me into his car when I was about 7, etc.

    With my own kids, I preferred to have their alone time at home. I let them walk places alone and cross non-busy streets, starting about age 8, but I knew where they were going and checked with the adult at the other end to make sure they got there safe. I did leave them alone to babysit themselves at ages some people might find too young, but they were OK, and always had access to me via phone. I left them in the car sometimes (with a/c on) if I was just running into a store for a minute (a real minute, not the fake minute some parents do). They've all grown up OK, and are independent doers and thinkers, so I must have done OK.


    I think a lot don't realize those they would label "bad parents" are pretty nervous and protective themselves. That seems to go along with the job and most kids have cells now and we didn't. No cells, no google... nothing. As long you don't hold them back or not let them try something when they are ready. You teach them for a reason but it's kind of a waste if you don't let them get the experience that goes along with it. I can't quite understand how someone gets so far gone that they spoon feed a 10 year old because they may choke if they do not continue to puree and do the airplane.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    We talked about the car thing in the SC mom thread too. It is a hard one because peope watch the news and hear... If you see a kid in a car, call 911. You don't expect them to do it with kids old enough to sit in the front seat and crank it when need be. It seem like some rationality would kick in but a teen is viewed as a baby/tot. I was watching a pretty good lecture today by "The Worlds Worst Mom" and she was talking about a situation where a woman was literally in the store for 4 minutes while her kids were in the car. A person went in the store, yelled about kids being in ... type vehicle, she said it's mine! I ran in to grab 2 things and I'm checking out now. She was called a bad mother and the person dialed 911. The kids were fine. No signs of distress and again, 4 minutes. Lenore discussed the current trend to not trust anyone, believe your eyes or believe logic. Several of us have say in a car for 4 minutes, w/o AC, and did not die. You've been stuck in traffic and cut your car off to save gas. Acting like a mom is a horrible human being unless she gets her newborn out of the car, waking her up in the process, to walk 8 steps to a US Postal Service Box on the street and then walk right back to your car and strap the baby up again is crazy. That's unnecessary pressure. * I kept wondering what the man who called that in expected or wanted me to do. The mom got out of the car for 5 seconds, the baby is fine, no one was napped or jacked and she has driven away. Shall I send someone to arrest her because something awful could have happened but didn't? Yes. Thats what people want. Think the most horrible thing first and respond as if it is 152% going to happen at any given moment.

    ETA: I get the impression that a lot of moms who lock their keys and the baby in the car are the ones who can't walk away for one second, anywhere. Baby in arms while cleaning, baby in arms while napping... You are going to be exhausted anyway but when you don't take one second (because thats what bad moms do) you're going to fry yourself. They put the baby back in the car after, leave the keys in the back seat, shut the door and melt down. I send an officer (who will not charge her because they are pretty understanding dads but they will say get a grip! take a breath!) just to have someone calm her down until the lock smith gets there. Most are beyond consoulation, standing beside a locked car with windows, looking at their perfectly fine baby.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    GMA had an update about the parents mentioned in my first post this morning. They were found guilty of unfounded or unsubstantiated neglect. Which basically = we think you neglected your kids but can't prove it. A little bit pointless. I had to agree with the with guy they consult on legal matters when he said, "This is crazy!!". This being people acting like a 10 and 6 year old can't walk, the number of people playing parent police and more importantly the government stepping in and telling you how to parent your child when nothing happened. Of course Nancy Grace was running her big hair & mouth about crosswalks (the horror. a child would never get hit by someone running the light if your were with them. that or your little idiot can handle long divison, multiplication, read but can't figure out or remember what the walk/don't walk signs mean at 10) and a child being abducted and killed there once before. And.... That's not this situation. That's think worst first and assume it will happen.

    ETA: I'm quite sure that is what is going on with the people who call it in. They just assume those terrible parents they know nothing about pushed their kids out the door and said figure it out on your own. Not that the 10 year old had over 5 years of lessons on how to get to and from the park and his 6 year old sister had at least 2 and her big bro looking out for her. No consideration that the kids may have asked to do it on their own. That the parents may have worked dbl time with them before that. I'm sure they had cell phones... It seem like the more contact parents have with their kids now, the harder some fight to not let them out of their sight. I'd like to see what happened if all cells stopped working and some had to hold their breath and do it like our parents did.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    Loved this!


    Attention Parents: If You Let Your Kids Out Of Your Sight, They Might Be Abducted — By The Government | TheBlaze.com

    Some highlights from the article below...

    Matt,

    Did you see the story about the “Free Range parents” who were found guilty of child neglect? I know you’re a big believer in parents rights and so am I, but I would NEVER let a SIX-YEAR-OLD go to a park ALONE. I think [Child Protective Services] had to do something in this case even if it was unpopular. What do you think of this parenting style? What is YOUR parenting style? I have neighbors who let their kids basically run all over the place unsupervised and it causes problems in the neighborhood and it is unsafe for the children. I think it would be great if you could write something about these trendy parenting tactics and talk some sense into people.

    2) The 6-year-old wasn’t walking alone (or even “ALONE”). She was walking with her 10-year-old brother. They were returning home from a park a couple of blocks away. Yes, they were — GASP — unsupervised, but they were not alone.

    3) The parents most certainly were not found “guilty” of child neglect; they were found “responsible” for “unsubstantiated” child neglect. That means the charges were unproved and unverified, but CPS will keep a file on them anyway for five years. They are in the system now, which means any further unsubstantiated charges could easily lead to them having their children legally kidnapped.

    How can someone be “responsible” for that which is “unsubstantiated”?

    The charges came under a law that says children under eight cannot be “locked in a confined space,” such as a dwelling or a car, without the supervision of someone 13 years or older. Apparently, “locked in a confined space” now includes walking outdoors. I suppose, in a sense, we are confined outside because we are still tethered by gravity to the planet Earth, but it kind of feels like maybe we’re broadening our definitions just a tad too far. Don’t you think?

    An official from the agency showed up at the door soon after and forced the man to sign a document pledging that he wouldn’t let his children out of his sight ever again. He refused, but the power-drunk tyrant informed him that his kids would be removed from the house if the state is not assured that they will be contained and monitored at all times, much like inmates in a mental asylum, or sting rays at the aquarium. The Dad consented because he had no choice.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    I really love how the person who sent a message to the author described letting your children walk somewhere as "trendy parenting tactics". Haha


    And do note: Laws about children in cars are not universal. They differ from state to state, and many use no common sense in situations where the parent is a few feet away, returning a buggy after putting the kids and groceries in the car OR running in for mere min with a school age kid in the car.

    *** Do people even stop and consider the absolutely absurd precedents they are settig for current parents (many who are working) and for future generations.... Their childrens, children? Of course, as said a billion times, one should not leave a baby/kid alone in a hot or cold car for extended periods. That is a given and why you have these laws. It's not for the "neglectful parent" who returns their buggy leaving a child in a locked car for 30 seconds. It's not for the 12 year old with keys. People who are so paranoid and distraught that they can not differentiate have some personal issues they need to deal with. And that goes dbl for CPS trying to stretch laws that do not even apply beyond all realms of space, time & reality.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • anonymous_150263anonymous_150263 Registered Users Posts: 773
    First before you read this, by the grace of God I am a well adjusted adult married for 10 years with two children. Im also a registered nurse and have been for 9 years.

    I'm a total helicopter parent and I'm not ashamed! For one sex trafficing and human trafficking are very very real. I have friends who are very very successful adults and their parents never let them walk home alone or go to sleepovers till they were teenagers.

    My biological mom was a drug addict and alcoholic. I walked home on a country dirt road everyday ....sometimes my grandma was keeping me if my mom was in jail... but if not I was usually home alone after school. My older brother would be with friends... I didn't have a baby brother yet but once I did my mom would either leave him with me or drag him around with her. One day a car pulled up and a man asked me to come closer and give him directions somewhere. I ran as fast as I could and jumped a couple of fences and dissapeared. I watched from the field as the car slowly drove down the road and back out again. The field I jumped into had locked gates. I was probably around 7 years old at the time.

    When I was 8 my aunt and uncle got permanent custody of me and my little brother. I thought it was weird they had a babysitter come watch us when I used to always watch my brother when my mom went out and left us on our own
    Either that or drag us into crackhouses while she bought and did drugs.

    I also thought it was odd that my uncle walked me to the bus stop every morning and waited with me and was there waiting for me when I got off. They wouldn't let me go to peoples houses unless they met them and felt comfortable. (When I lived with my mom she would've gladly dropped me off with anyone anywhere and frequently did.) At first I thought my aunt and uncle were so mean and so controlling but i look back with so much appreciation for the love and care they gave me... and they didn't have to. They chose to. When I was a teen and started driving of course I gained more freedoms but I was very cautious... I had seen a lot at a young age before they took me and had a taste of the evil things some adults would do to children. My mother would Leave us in a car in crack town in the middle of the night while they went and got drugs. I was a 6 or 7 year old sitting next to my baby brother looking out the window fearfully at every dark figure that walks by. (And oh yeah my mom married a convicted pedofile who helped "raise us" when he was around and not locked up in jail himself. )

    So yeah I am a helicopter parent. My kids don't play in the road unless I am watching them. They do go in the yard and play, They are 6 and 8 now and I've taught them to run to the house screaming if any adult in a car tries to talk to them or asks them to come closer. We've even told them even an adult walking by they don't know they are to come straight to us if they try to talk to them. My kids are good, they do come to us, and we will always go out and then talk to whoever talked to them. You never really know anyone, your neighbor could be a pedofile and if they see an adult presence they know that child will not be an easy target. And pedofiles look for easy targets. We tell our kids even if they recognize the adult to still come tell us if they try to talk to them if we aren't around. There is no reason any adult in my neighborhood should be talking to my child.

    My husband used to be a police officer so we've established adult safety and emergency procedures. If it's a true emergency and say we are unconscious they know to try to call 911 first and if say we are in a store and they get lost or separated they know to look for someone who works there. And we practice and reinforce these scenarios while we are at a grocery store I will quiz them. "If you cant find mommy or daddy right now what do you do".


    Of course they are starting to make friends with some neighborhood kids and I've made it a point to meet some of the parents. I also have other close friends and also do playdates with classmates. It's all supervised and I see no reason to risk my child's safety. They are also active in our churches kids club and believe me I know pedofiles can be there too. So I've also educated my children about basic sexual education with the guidance of my pediatrician. Private parts and no touching things like that. But also about the reproductive system and what each body parts function is. There is a book called "what kids need to know about sex and when they need to know it" by meg hickling and that book was a God send. It helped me feel comfortable talking about "body science" with my kids and answering their questions about reproduction. Also the author has actually talked to convicted pedofiles and if a child is knowledgeable about reproduction a pedofile is not likely to prey on them because they know an adult has talked to them about those things. A pedofile is more likely to prey on a child who is ignorant about reproduction and embarrased about it because that child is less likely to tell another adult.



    And yes I include real life experiences a little at a time as they mature and are ready. But I see no reason to let them walk several blocks alone or leave them at park unattended.


    (Also about leaving in a car. Different states and counties have different laws you can easily look up. For Florida children under 6 can not be left unattended in a car unless the car is in direct line of vision of the guardian. Kids age 6-11 may be left unattended for no longer than 15 minutes. Windows are supposed to be down if its extremely warm, and the engine is to be shut off. )


    So yes to sum it up... I'm Helicopter parent and proud! Im not pushing my beliefs but the bible says "raise a child up in they way they should go and when they are old they will not turn from it". So I intend to be fully present to train them and educate them and prepare them for the world.
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    First before you read this, by the grace of God I am a well adjusted adult married for 10 years with two children. Im also a registered nurse and have been for 9 years.

    I'm a total helicopter parent and I'm not ashamed! For one sex trafficing and human trafficking are very very real. I have friends who are very very successful adults and their parents never let them walk home alone or go to sleepovers till they were teenagers.

    My biological mom was a drug addict and alcoholic. I walked home on a country dirt road everyday ....sometimes my grandma was keeping me if my mom was in jail... but if not I was usually home alone after school. My older brother would be with friends... I didn't have a baby brother yet but once I did my mom would either leave him with me or drag him around with her. One day a car pulled up and a man asked me to come closer and give him directions somewhere. I ran as fast as I could and jumped a couple of fences and dissapeared. I watched from the field as the car slowly drove down the road and back out again. The field I jumped into had locked gates. I was probably around 7 years old at the time.

    When I was 8 my aunt and uncle got permanent custody of me and my little brother. I thought it was weird they had a babysitter come watch us when I used to always watch my brother when my mom went out and left us on our own
    Either that or drag us into crackhouses while she bought and did drugs.

    I also thought it was odd that my uncle walked me to the bus stop every morning and waited with me and was there waiting for me when I got off. They wouldn't let me go to peoples houses unless they met them and felt comfortable. (When I lived with my mom she would've gladly dropped me off with anyone anywhere and frequently did.) At first I thought my aunt and uncle were so mean and so controlling but i look back with so much appreciation for the love and care they gave me... and they didn't have to. They chose to. When I was a teen and started driving of course I gained more freedoms but I was very cautious... I had seen a lot at a young age before they took me and had a taste of the evil things some adults would do to children. My mother would Leave us in a car in crack town in the middle of the night while they went and got drugs. I was a 6 or 7 year old sitting next to my baby brother looking out the window fearfully at every dark figure that walks by. (And oh yeah my mom married a convicted pedofile who helped "raise us" when he was around and not locked up in jail himself. )

    So yeah I am a helicopter parent. My kids don't play in the road unless I am watching them. They do go in the yard and play, They are 6 and 8 now and I've taught them to run to the house screaming if any adult in a car tries to talk to them or asks them to come closer. We've even told them even an adult walking by they don't know they are to come straight to us if they try to talk to them. My kids are good, they do come to us, and we will always go out and then talk to whoever talked to them. You never really know anyone, your neighbor could be a pedofile and if they see an adult presence they know that child will not be an easy target. And pedofiles look for easy targets. We tell our kids even if they recognize the adult to still come tell us if they try to talk to them if we aren't around. There is no reason any adult in my neighborhood should be talking to my child.

    My husband used to be a police officer so we've established adult safety and emergency procedures. If it's a true emergency and say we are unconscious they know to try to call 911 first and if say we are in a store and they get lost or separated they know to look for someone who works there. And we practice and reinforce these scenarios while we are at a grocery store I will quiz them. "If you cant find mommy or daddy right now what do you do".


    Of course they are starting to make friends with some neighborhood kids and I've made it a point to meet some of the parents. I also have other close friends and also do playdates with classmates. It's all supervised and I see no reason to risk my child's safety. They are also active in our churches kids club and believe me I know pedofiles can be there too. So I've also educated my children about basic sexual education with the guidance of my pediatrician. Private parts and no touching things like that. But also about the reproductive system and what each body parts function is. There is a book called "what kids need to know about sex and when they need to know it" by meg hickling and that book was a God send. It helped me feel comfortable talking about "body science" with my kids and answering their questions about reproduction. Also the author has actually talked to convicted pedofiles and if a child is knowledgeable about reproduction a pedofile is not likely to prey on them because they know an adult has talked to them about those things. A pedofile is more likely to prey on a child who is ignorant about reproduction and embarrased about it because that child is less likely to tell another adult.



    And yes I include real life experiences a little at a time as they mature and are ready. But I see no reason to let them walk several blocks alone or leave them at park unattended.


    (Also about leaving in a car. Different states and counties have different laws you can easily look up. For Florida children under 6 can not be left unattended in a car unless the car is in direct line of vision of the guardian. Kids age 6-11 may be left unattended for no longer than 15 minutes. Windows are supposed to be down if its extremely warm, and the engine is to be shut off. )


    So yes to sum it up... I'm Helicopter parent and proud! Im not pushing my beliefs but the bible says "raise a child up in they way they should go and when they are old they will not turn from it". So I intend to be fully present to train them and educate them and prepare them for the world.


    I have no children. I have 4 nephews and mass amounts of cousins and a county I look after (because I am a 911 dispatcher). My parents would let me walk around town with my older brothers, friends, etc. My parents had to meet my friends parents before I was allowed to stay with them. If they met them and felt it was okay, they let me go. I started this at 4 years old. By the time I reached upper grades in elementary and high school, I was well versed in staying the night somewhere else, which helps when a young adult reaches college age. I cringe when I see parents who just wake up and realize their 18 year old is moving thousands of miles away and has never had a sleep over or been allowed to stay the night alone in their own house or given any responsibility (at an appropriate age for them) to care for their siblings. They realize that they failed to prepare in that aspect.

    I have a co worker, therefore also a 911 dispatcher, who has a very irrational fear of her daughter being kidnapped (stranger abduction) or molested. They are in 8th and 10th grades. She has met all of her daughters, friends, parents. She knows they seem perfectly fine, is aware of the known CM's in our county and could easily have someone do a background check at her request. She also knows that we have not had a stranger abduction in the 15 years she has been on the job YET she still fid not allow her daughters to walk down her driveway to church (a task she can watch from the front window) until a few months ago and will not allow them to have sleep overs. What is she going to do (it's not always about the kids reaction either) then the 15 year old starts driving in a few months?

    My father has PTSD (war vet, victim of horrible physical child abuse, his sister died after their father beat her in the head...), horrible anxiety, etc. He told me the different ways I could be kidnapped and killed and molested every time we went somewhere and as I grew, every time I went somewhere. BUT he still let me go and use the knowledge they gave me. He quizzed me on safety plans relentlessly. Month after month after month. I got it pretty quickly and when you rarely go anywhere out of the ordinary, why treat me as if I can not absorb the information? I had to ask them to back off and trust that I knew because it was giving me anxiety. Something that happens to a lot of children. It is one of their top phobias at 4. Nothing wrong with educating your children or having plans... It is great!! And it is necessary but I do believe, from my own experience, one has the ability to take it too far. I know kids who sat in the house with a gun in their hands (before gun safes) while their parent was mowing outside because they had just given them their daily lecture about someone breaking in and abducting them. No isht. Thankfully the parent had also taught them gun safety so they never pointed it, put their finger near the trigger, etc. Just held it after the scenario for mom/dad having to leave the house and be outside for a moment.

    I'm all for parents doing their own things (most just try to do their best) but when some start trying to take legal measure because their methods do not click, and strictly based on what if's in most of these situations.... We have a problem.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    PS- My dads father was a mean drunk and pill popper. His 2nd wife left him passed out in the car on a hot august day (when I was 2), after she rolled up all the windows and locked the doors. He died. (I know accidental deaths happen but all of my work experiences with children's deaths in hot cars have been very much intentional and for hours! Kids put in the trunk so no one would see them in the car, etc). He was beating her. My father rarely ever had a drink, but he was still a nervous wreck due to his experiences. I was stalked by a manic prom date in high school and raped in my 20a by a guy I had known for years!! My parents had no experiences like mine (and I am very sorry about yours. sounds a lot like my 1st bff and the first person I was allowed to stay the night with. her grandparents had gotten custody of her after removing her from a drug den in Texas both her parents made, ran and sold. I have friends who have gone thru life with no real bad things happening too :) ),but my moms first husband was murdered by a drunk in their front yard, in front of my brothers when they were toddlers, over a stupid dispute over a water well. Despite or in spite of everything, my mom never let that control her life and I have worked my hardest to still see good in people and know that I have met more good people than bad. I have known more people I can trust.

    I can't go along with CPS bending laws like they did in the above case, no matter what. It can easily be done to hurt more parents. I also can not go along with them requesting a parent sign a form saying they will keep their kids contained and never let them out of their sight. How can anyone promise that? What happens on field trips? When your kid starts driving? It's absurd.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    I read a story the other day about a 15 year old boy who had snuck away from his house to ride his skateboard. He couldn't ride it at home and his mom would not allow him to leave the property w/o her. He took a pretty nasty spill (common with skateboards), a stranger saw it (he was forbidden from talking to strangers) and asked if he was okay, helped him get back to his house (via a car) and helped him makeup a story along the way so his mom would not know what happened. Bless his heart. I'm glad a nice person was around (who did not assume the worst first.... neglect... and call the cops) because the boy was not about to call his mom or give the nbr. Point being, once again, a parent has no way of promising a child will be in their sight at all times. Absurd!!! Things happen, even to parents who try to keep their kids contained, in their view and forbid them from talking to strangers.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    One more thing on invasive thoughts/irrational fears


    “How Do I Deal with The Fear My Son will be Snatched?” | Free Range Kids

    The fear of a child being snatched is no different than any other irrational fear, such as heights, water, crowds, or whatever. Why it is not commonly considered an irrational fear is because it has to do with children and the better safe than sorry mentality.

    Just like any other irrational fear you need to expose yourself to that situation in increments, slowyly seeing that nothing is going to happen. Then experience will lead to comfort, that will then lead to confidence. The first step is to acknowledge that it is an irrational fear, that needs to be overcome.

    Like many other things in life, we have to put aside our own feelings, prejudices, and fears to do what is right for our kids. The fear and anxiety that one feels is just a sacrifice like any other we make for our kids.

    *******
    “The MOST LIKELY outcome of childhood is that your child will survive without any significantly bad events in his/her life.”

    And that if a significantly bad event does occur, it will most likely not be fatal. And that anything that is non-fatal is not the end of the world unless you treat it like it is the end of the world.

    I get tired of the attitude that kidnapping, molestation and other non-fatal, but serious events predetermine a forever horrible life. Yes those things suck majorly and I hope that my child never has to go through a serious, non-fatal event. But should it happen, its occurrence does not mean that she can never be happy, healthy and well-adjusted again ever. Her life will maybe be different than what that she would have had without the serious event, but that doesn’t mean that it won’t be happy.

    *******
    “Never is not an option.”

    I think that this understanding is key. We can’t stop time and the passage of time means that all children will eventually be free to do whatever the heck they want to do. We can choose to throw them into life with no skills, training, self-esteem, independence or confidence at 18 and hope for the best. Or we can spend the 18 or so years that we do have a say in what happens to teach and to give controlled opportunities to build self-esteem, independence and confidence so that they are ready for the move to adulthood.

    The one never that is certain is that there will never be a perfect time – a time when you feel that the world is 100% safe and letting your children do X has zero risk. If you are focused on your fear and not your child’s need to grow, you will be constantly kicking the can down the road. If you don’t think that that the world is safe enough for your child to walk to school at 8 (outside of actual reasons like traffic, developmental delays etc), what do you think is really going to happen to make it suddenly safe at 12 or 14 or 16? Do you really see the safety of the world improving vastly in the next 8 years such that the risk will be then zero? If you keep kicking the can down the road, you are left at 18 with a kid who can do whatever he damn well pleases and who has no skills whatsoever to do it responsibly.

    ******
    I am still puzzled as to where people acquire this fear.

    When something bad happens to someone close to you, the dangers seem much nearer. Now, the Internet makes everything seem closer and with news media pumping the stories (shootings, abductions, molestations, etc.) for all they are worth, the stories are as close as in-your-face can be. So when a school shooting happens across the country, we “know” the people who were affected; the news media encourages the national mourning and wallowing.

    On the other hand, when a teenager is killed in a highway accident on prom night, people across the country are not alerted to this much more frequent tragedy. We cry over those kids lost to the highway…and then send our kids out to drive again. Which is a much more sensible way to deal with fear and reality.

    *******
    The first step is to admit that, as a parent, you are not all powerful and your presence will not automatically guarantee your child’s safety.

    I’ve heard the most angsty parents talk about the news tragedies and they always conclude that it ‘would never have happened if the parent was right there’ … even if the parent was right there.

    ******

    I wonder what portion of the fear is the fear of being isolated and condemned? If kids are in a car accident, nobody blames the parents for daring to put them in a car.

    ^^^^^^^^^ Excellent point. I wonder what is up with abduction kits that are sold to the general public and pushed by parents in blogs. Kits you pay for that have a DNA Swab, a dental impression and a recent photograph taken strictly for law enforcement and media if your child is abducted. #1. If you are the type of parent who would buy this, I am pretty sure you take about a million pictures of kid every day with your smart phone. What is this special photo of your child, that needs to be regularly updated, and put in the in case of abduction file for? #2. Does your child have a tooth brush or hairbrush? There is your DNA. They often say the DNA swab can easily be used for search dogs. So can a pillow case, jacket, sweat shirt, things you may have in your car in case you are not home when your child goes missing because I doubt the abduction kit is taken with you everywhere you go. If it is... :-/ #3. If your child goes to a dentist they shoukd have dental records on file. Do you need to update these regularly at home in case your child is kidnapped and horribly disfigured to the point of identification not being possible? That is the only time dental records would be needed. Do you have in case of horrible car accidents kits that you leave with a relative? In case of house fire kits? Those happen more than stranger abductions. I get so frustrated that people profit off the anxiety/irrational fear and that kids have to have their in case of kidnap photo updated every 6 months when chances are, mom and have a recent pic on their phone. *It truly unnecessary. The media will pull random every day shots off Facebook anyway. I round up rescue squads and search dogs & send them out to peoples house or in the woods quite often when a smaller child can not be found or a teenager throws a tantrum on vacation with their parents, runs into the woods and gets lost. All are found in no time (which I am always happy about). Most of the small children are actually hiding in the house but the parents go into such a blind panic that they miss them the 5 times they looked under the bed. I used to hide from mine and watch them flip out, because it was obvious from our talks that they would. After I get the parents to take a breath and collect, check closets and beds again while I get help dispatched... They come back saying they found them. Whew!! Very rare they even need to drag out a pillow case or sweater. ETA: Plus, dispatchers are going to request and physical amd clothing description of your child and give it to responding personnel as they are en rotue, so they can keep an eye out for a kid matching that description. Like the 10 year old boy who once walked out of his parents vacation house and went to a resturant down the rd because he was hungry and all the adults were sleeping. His poor mom did nothing but scream hysterically while searching a 2 foot deep pond at the side of the house, looking for his body. Poor thing. I'm glad other people were there. Clothing of the day is often one of the most import things at that moment. It's easy to remember a 6 year old with black hair in a bright red shirt with blue stripes. Someone will get further and pictures on scene, if there is a need.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Registered Users Posts: 17,898 Curl Virtuoso
    I was not aware there was a site called Free Range Kids. LOL I had not realized it was "a thing."

    She explained that she let her 9 y/o ride the subway from Bloomingdale's home alone, w/ some cash and a metrocard. hmmmmm not sure about that. To me it would depend on how far away they live and if he had to switch trains. There are sexual predators and lunatics who will push you to your death onto the tracks and pickpockets and human traffickers and filthy ppl w/ open sores, etc. Riding the bus at 9 would be fine to me but the subway is more complicated and dangerous bc it's so much easier to "get lost in the crowd." I was riding the NYC buses alone at 9 and the subways at 12. But I yeah, I can see the media coming down on her. It wasn't terrible but I can see the risks.

  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    I was not aware there was a site called Free Range Kids. LOL I had not realized it was "a thing."

    She explained that she let her 9 y/o ride the subway from Bloomingdale's home alone, w/ some cash and a metrocard. hmmmmm not sure about that. To me it would depend on how far away they live and if he had to switch trains. There are sexual predators and lunatics who will push you to your death onto the tracks and pickpockets and human traffickers and filthy ppl w/ open sores, etc. Riding the bus at 9 would be fine to me but the subway is more complicated and dangerous bc it's so much easier to "get lost in the crowd." I was riding the NYC buses alone at 9 and the subways at 12. But I yeah, I can see the media coming down on her. It wasn't terrible but I can see the risks.

    It surprised me that this was named as a parenting method too. I found it to be weird that you needed to name letting your kids play outside. For the most part she is a pretty over protective parent and she had to fight against the urge to keep her kid locked inside like many other parents she knows.

    I did not know exactly what to think of the Subway thing at first either but I'm not a city girl. It's different to me and a lot of city people come here are are screaming bloody murder, terrified, that our highways don't have street lights and everything is dark at night. You're locked in a car with head lights so... I don't understand that ;)

    Apparently her son kept asking and asking to ride the subway by himself. They had been riding it together, as a family, for 9 years. They had already taught him to read a map. They observed him and thben said okay. He had a cell, made his way home and was beyond proud of himself. She was deemed the worst mom in America and the media did crack down on her hard. Almost every one of them gor incredibly serious; leaned in during interviews and said, "What would you have done if he would have been abducted or killed?" She said she felt like saying, "Ah, I have another son at home! No big deal! How do you think I would have felt????" It is pretty crazy to treat a person who was allowed to ride the subway as a child like she does not care if her child gets killed because she in turn let him ride the subway and was confident he could do it. Still scared, but she had faith. Since then she has been helping parents who still cut their 12 year olds food into bite sized pieces and feed them like a baby because they are overwhelmed with a fear that the child will choke. Parents who drag their almost teenage son into the womens restroom so they are not sexually assaulted, etc. Some good has came out of it. *I have came across examples of parents who have mashed up/puréed their childs food and fee it to them, due to a choking phobia, for so long that they have speech impediments and muscle weakness from never being allowed to chew. Others who carried their child until they had muscle loss in their legs and posture problems. That boy was 14 and had a vision problem (not complety blind) so his mom never allowed him to walk out of fear that he would get hurt. Therapists working with these kids said they don't call CPS on these parents because they "love their kids too much". Does that mean you love them into the grave because of a clear disorder on the parents part? *In both of those examples, the kids show clear signs of physical harm at the hands of their parent (along with emotional im sure). It's not a "what if". It's a "what now"?

    ETA: I watched a speech she gave at a university a while back and she kept joking that she wanted to write a book called Stop Imagining Your Child Dead!! but her publisher didn't think it was a good idea. ;) I wanted to see her opinion on the whole zero tolerance mess/stupid things kida are being suspended for and she ended up saying a funny tid bit about the cluster that is paranoid parent pick up. All the unloved and neglected kids ride the bus now. Haha. They can't all be blessed with stay at home moms.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    Wish I could find an article I read some time ago. It was by a major publication, and of course was trying to sell a different parenting method while harping on American having an insane amount of parenting method books that all contradict each other, but it still had some valid points. They went into fueds between parenting groups and the nbr of all out wars between parents on sites, over strollers or whatever to specific groups hurling labels of child abandonment if you do not wear or :carry your baby everywhere (if I had a baby I'd wear it on my head) or neglect over differing sleep methods, POV's on letting your child play in the yard, etc. Of course, part of this is spilling over onto the actual streets and people need to take a breath. It noted the constant competition to be a better, no, the beat parent who loves their child the most and seemingly selfless devotion that parents give 24-7 which is actually an unheard list of expectations, pressures and precedents being heaped on by the parents themselves. They Spoke of how this is more common in the middle and upper classes but lower income parents are also feeling incredibly intense pressure to parent in ways they can not. Really, in ways no one will be able to sustain b/c taking a moment for yourself is discouraged. Taking 30 seconds to complete a task w/o child in arms is discouraged.

    Of course at the end of all this they said never fear!! Parent like the French do! And started discussing their methods which sounds a lot like life before Dr Sears, Gen Y & padded play grounds. Kids were taught to respect elders. Kids are not the center of the world. They are part of it. Friends/Elders tell French children what to do and they listen. No one gets mad. Parents started suing your a** over that here. French parents sit back on a bench at the park and enjoy a latte as their child plays and parents here write long and sanctimonious blogs about the neglectful parent sitting on the bench, reading as their kids play, and not watching the sunlight catch their hair as they twirl in their dress (that the parent has probably seen about 50 times that day but still needs to feel guilty for failing at). Really, things became all child involved and consuming with the Boomers, in their teen years. X was fairly calm aside from parental hysteria over kidnapping, sexual abuse and satanic ritual in schools and music and halloween candy hoaxes. *Spock was still pumping out books and theories were were begining to increase for new parents in the 80s but honestly, I never met anyone who read them in the 60s/70s. (Not like they do now). Then it really blew up in the 90s! *The books & theories started to divide & multiply at an alarming rate* Every child was damaged beyond repair by every little thing. Snowflakes melting from low self esteem. That is when this country went completely off the cliff, no one but psychologists and medication were ever to be trusted, kids were to be locked indoors, and everyone should bend to their every need. In 20-30 more years we will see another round of I know what is best for your kids and it will probably be mind boggling.

    ETA: If you want a good kick look at what parents in other countries think about American parents and the culture surrounding American Children. "Are they insane?? Why do they have abduction kits for parents???" Hell if I know! I keep asking too. *I'm also wondering if CPS employees need to be reminded to keep their parenting style preference at bay when investigating. *Several have to keep personal views to a minimum on their job when dealing with masses.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    One more PS on this... I've talked to my mom and relatives who worked for DSS for over 30 years about this particular case. My mom was the lead food stamp worker. I have a cousin that was in the CPS division. Different jobs but they intertwined at times they knew the former in's and outs. My mom asked how this was even humanly possible. Stretching one law that doesn't apply in order to keep file but mostly the form the father was asked to sign for the state. When I told her what it requested/asked the father to promise she said, "That is not parenting. That is prison." and she's turned into a hyper paranoid grandparent, but can still see the difference. "What state? When did they start requesting absurd things like that??"
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Registered Users Posts: 17,898 Curl Virtuoso
    Fifi.G wrote: »
    One more PS on this... I've talked to my mom and relatives who worked for DSS for over 30 years about this particular case. My mom was the lead food stamp worker. I have a cousin that was in the CPS division. Different jobs but they intertwined at times they knew the former in's and outs. My mom asked how this was even humanly possible. Stretching one law that doesn't apply in order to keep file but mostly the form the father was asked to sign for the state. When I told her what it requested/asked the father to promise she said, "That is not parenting. That is prison." and she's turned into a hyper paranoid grandparent, but can still see the difference. "What state? When did they start requesting absurd things like that??"

    What's this in reference to?

    ***

    I can't remember where you posted about Sesame Street but yeah, I remember in the 70s there was a clip of a little kids - couldn't have been more than 7 or 8 - riding a NYC bus alone...or maybe it was w/ friends. Saying something about "I'm a big kid and can catch a big bus and ride it downtown." I was younger than that and was jealous of their freedom and independence. LOL Couldn't wait until I could do it, too.

    ***

    One problem w/ letting little kids ride the subway alone and similar is that unexpected things can happen. Then the kid panics and starts to cry. Doesn't have the sense to know the difference btwn what's a big deal and what's a minor inconvenience. Then the adults get involved and either the police are called or a predators attenae go up.

    I had to start catching the bus for 5 grade and I was a year younger, so only 9. My parents worked and we had moved and there was no school bus. The bus stop was about 4 blocks from my school and I had to walk alone. All my parents told me was to get on it and get off when I saw our neighborhood. Easy enough. But school let out a little late the first day, and as I was walking toward the stop, I saw the bus speed right by me. I was used to catching the bus (with an adult) in more heavily populated areas where they came by about every two or three minutes. I guess that's what my expected, too. But little did we know, that bus came by only once every 45 mins. So I was waiting and waiting and waiting and started to panic. I didn't know if another bus would ever come along, and if I would get in trouble for missing the previous one or what to do if someone asked me why I was standing there for so long. And then there was another time when I lost my bus fare, etc. Parents can go over stuff but probably won't cover every situation. And the bus is very easy compared to the subway.

    I left my daughter at home once when she was 9. Wasn't the first time. But that time went really awry and the police were waiting for me when I got back. (Thanks, busybody idiot neighbor).

  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    Fifi.G wrote: »
    One more PS on this... I've talked to my mom and relatives who worked for DSS for over 30 years about this particular case. My mom was the lead food stamp worker. I have a cousin that was in the CPS division. Different jobs but they intertwined at times they knew the former in's and outs. My mom asked how this was even humanly possible. Stretching one law that doesn't apply in order to keep file but mostly the form the father was asked to sign for the state. When I told her what it requested/asked the father to promise she said, "That is not parenting. That is prison." and she's turned into a hyper paranoid grandparent, but can still see the difference. "What state? When did they start requesting absurd things like that??"

    What's this in reference to?

    ***

    I can't remember where you posted about Sesame Street but yeah, I remember in the 70s there was a clip of a little kids - couldn't have been more than 7 or 8 - riding a NYC bus alone...or maybe it was w/ friends. Saying something about "I'm a big kid and can catch a big bus and ride it downtown." I was younger than that and was jealous of their freedom and independence. LOL Couldn't wait until I could do it, too.

    ***

    One problem w/ letting little kids ride the subway alone and similar is that unexpected things can happen. Then the kid panics and starts to cry. Doesn't have the sense to know the difference btwn what's a big deal and what's a minor inconvenience. Then the adults get involved and either the police are called or a predators attenae go up.

    I had to start catching the bus for 5 grade and I was a year younger, so only 9. My parents worked and we had moved and there was no school bus. The bus stop was about 4 blocks from my school and I had to walk alone. All my parents told me was to get on it and get off when I saw our neighborhood. Easy enough. But school let out a little late the first day, and as I was walking toward the stop, I saw the bus speed right by me. I was used to catching the bus (with an adult) in more heavily populated areas where they came by about every two or three minutes. I guess that's what my expected, too. But little did we know, that bus came by only once every 45 mins. So I was waiting and waiting and waiting and started to panic. I didn't know if another bus would ever come along, and if I would get in trouble for missing the previous one or what to do if someone asked me why I was standing there for so long. And then there was another time when I lost my bus fare, etc. Parents can go over stuff but probably won't cover every situation. And the bus is very easy compared to the subway.

    I left my daughter at home once when she was 9. Wasn't the first time. But that time went really awry and the police were waiting for me when I got back. (Thanks, busybody idiot neighbor).

    I was talking about the parents who were investigated for letting their 6 and 10 year olds walk back from the park on their own. I posted a Blaze article on the 1st page of this thread that covered the parents being charged with "unsubstantiated" neglect, which is pointless. It basically says you are not a parent selling your child for meth money (something a few parents here did) or passed out drunk while your children are wondering around alone BUT we are going to keep a file on you for 5 years b/c something "might have happened" to your children. They based this decision on a law stating children under a specific age can not be left alone, in a dwelling such as a car or house, w/o a 13 year old + watching them. That does not even remotely apply to children walking down a public street, but somehow CPS used it. They also forced the father to sign a document saying he "would never let his children out of his sight again and would keep them contained" as in, inside or by his side. He refused like any sane person woukd so because how can one promise that with growing humans? How can yiu promise they will never be out of your sight when they go to school? how can you promise they won't run off or do something on a field trip, sneak out of the house, etc. Plus it is also against their parenting method. These are highly educated people of Eastern European descent. The father is a climate scientist. They know risk assesment and know CPs will be waiting for a slip up for the next 5 years. A 15 year old can't he out of your sight???CPS said the state required this promise from the parents or the children would be removed. We are not talking let your child walk a few blocks to the corner market at 12, at your own risk b/c there is a tiny chance he kidnapped BUT let your child walk to to the corner store at 12 and they will be removed from your custody due to neglect.

    I get you with subway. Surprises/unknows may happen causing one to think on their feet or panic or worry. It's good that most kids have cell phones these days and call mom or dad and ask if anything comes up. L.S said her son did have to ask one person about specifics on his 9 year old subway run (he is 16 now). He had to ask one of those strange things.... A man.... About which platform he should be on. Discovered it was the other side, took the stairs and went around. I believe that was the only time he needes assistance. She was in no way advocating for all kids to take the subway, etc. That was based on her son, his requests, what they had witnessed and things he was able to do and figure out. Increases in responsibility, depending on the children, etc. It was more about treating kids as if they can not do or figure out anything, ever, and in turn never giving them any experience in handling situations. Like your busy neighbor did.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    This shows an example of how the media had treated Lenore for some time

    ‘World’s Worst Mom’ on rescuing kids from helicopter parents | WGN-TV

    They ask her what is wrong with parents who know that one of 9000000 things could happen to their child on the subway so they choose to ride the subway with them, as opposed to "being a lazy parent". I know this can be hard for people but remove the word subway all together. I don't see how knowing your childs maturity level, considering a request when they make it and allowing them more responsibility/a learing and growing experience equals lazy parenting. That is parenting. You felt confidant your 9 year old could be at home alone for a short period. You used your parental judgement based on that. The general public is dissolving this parental right on behalf of the state. Imo, removing all challenges, responsibility, obstacles, potential threats, wrapping your kid in bubble wrap, following them around in their teens, never allowing them to learn how to cut their own food or feed themselves, play with friends, have a moment by themselves, trusting in their abilities, etc... Is being a lazy parent. It may not seem like t because that parent is in over drive, following behind their kids every step, staying in a constant panic, always thinking worst case first and acting as if it will always happen, wearing themselves down to nothing. BUT they are not preparing their kids to one day be reaponsible adults. Letting them cut their own food and feed themselves is a must. If one is not allowing a child to do this because of an irational phobia, it's even worse. Letting them relate to life without mom and dad on top of them 24-7 is a must. What the parent does and how they do it is based on the child (and where you live, so and so forth).

    *That is also why I gripe about specific parenting methods being introduced in schools. We know that was snuck in during the mid 80s, after religion was being pushed out due it conflicting with other views. I don't know how that even happened or how it has grown to such a cluster of extremes. Educate the children. Teach them. Don't eff with their heads, based on psycho-babble, and treat them all as if they are the same, have the same issues, etc. They found The Self Esteem Movement actually did more harm than good. *As in caused extreme leves of SE in children who already had high self esteem, caused a false sense of SE in those who had LSE (because no one was actually being rewarded for achievements (just cauz) and caused worry in several. Everytime they heard "it's wonderfuk! you are wonderful! they kept waiting for the other shoe to drop and felt pressure to excell so they would not hear it. They were terrified of being human and not always doing well. *Not to mention the fact that the studies were based on *some* Gen X kids, were applied to the generation as a whole and then measures were taken to correct this by only implementing it in Gen Y classrooms. A lot of parents ain't too rational. ;) This should not be happening.

    ETA: Unlike our day, they now have some really cool knives for kids on the market. I am impressed! Rounded ends, dull enough to cut food and not fingers, different styles, and the sharpness increases with age. How your child could not use utincles is beyond me. We did it with sharp instruments.

    There is also a pretty good report from (believe it or not) Fox News titled GROW UP: Parenting Wars. It is 41 min long and covers the constant drama and trouble being stirred up by parents obsessed with methods.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    In the Grow Up report they do give one example of a Georgia man who let his 7 year old walk home by himself from a shopping mall. They had walked to and from the mall several times, was 1.5 miles from the mall to home, it was in Dunwoody Georgia, there are police officers stationed at every single cross walk and he said okay. One can debate that all day long. I doubt my parents would have let me walk a mile and a half on a street, by myself, at 7. With a group of kids ... Yes. I was allowed fo go miles into the woods with 1- several other kids at that age. Kids ranging from my age to my older brothers. Some may see that as 10 times more dangerous but I live in the woods/mountains. It's normal. So, anywho, the kid was stopped by the police not too far into his walk, they asked where his parents were, and his dad was arrested for neglect/endangerment. The thing I found most absurd about this were reasons given by the younger officer (who was more than likely over parented to an extreme) were things like.... This child was walking a mile and a half by himself. That is a great distance! Especially with no food or water.

    Do you know how long it takes to walk 1.5 miles on a flat surface?? 30 minutes. A 30 min walk can not be done w/o food or water? Did your parents make you wear a helmet when you walked?? Any type of irrational response is clung to with a death grip. They even discuss parents in Canada who requested all trees be cut down after a child fell out of one and broke their arm. Do we kill all bees when a child gets stung, therefore killing all plant life and killing us? Good thinking!

    *It's become the norm to remove all obstacles, dangers OR if that can not he done, you remove your children completely from that situation. The outside is dangerous = rarely going outside. 10 children are allergic to a specific food = removing that food from the school. You still can't remove it from life and it is not very helpful to anyone in the long run.

    PS- They also talk about the value of delayed gratification, not giving in to your childs every request or tantrum, in a stupid way. I don't think a marshmallow experiment tell you not to spoil your kids rotten or that you need a delayed gratification method. They do show a hysterical commercial during it where a kid demands a bag of chips in the store, now!! and throws them down & starts screaming when the mom says no. She in turn throws down her purse, gets in the floor, starts screaming bloody murder and throwing a tantrum. The kid automatically shuts up and puts the chips back. I've been doing that to kids since i was 13 years old. It works like a dream!! I'll do it in the middle of a store. Idc. They stop and look at you like... OMG are you crazy? Then it clicks.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    ‘We cannot childproof the whole world:’ Ontario mother criticized over fight to banish acorns from schoolyard

    One parent’s bid to remove four oak trees from a park straddling her acorn-allergic daughter’s elementary schoolyard has generated fresh debate over what lengths authorities should go to eliminate childhood risks, and when the line between reasonable accommodation and overreaction is crossed.

    Donna Giustizia told Vaughan, Ont., city council that the saplings dropping tree nuts onto school property pose a threat to young students with anaphylaxis-inducing allergies and are infringing on their right to a nut-free space.

    But the request is being met with broad skepticism, as city councillors are forced to mull the tricky business of altogether removing something that might be a risk for a small segment of the population.

    “This is ridiculous on too many levels to even engage,” said Nicholas Christakis, a professor of medical sociology at Harvard Medical School and critic of nut policies in schools.

    “My feelings are that we cannot childproof the whole world, we have to world-proof our children,” added Lenore Skenazy, the New York-based author of Free Range Parenting. “If it is dangerous for some kids to encounter an acorn, those kids have to be taught not to touch them, because there are trees all over, not just near the school. The best way to keep them safe is to train them to take care of themselves, not to cut down all the trees they may ever walk under anywhere.”

    ***** I would have to b**ch slap that woman after her comments about children with nut allergies being "disabled" and due to their "disability" the government had a duty to cut down the trees in question and meet their needs. I have never heard the parent of a diabetic child (pill or insulin dependant) attempt to ban all the sugar in a school and demand the government meet the needs of their disabled child by doing so. Or ask that people cut down fruit trees because they could over do it on the natural surgars. You can't remove all the sugar in the world which can lead to a diabetic coma and death. That child has to learn how to control their diet and restrict their foods. *I bet it has something to do w/ the fact that parents of diabetics have to get over it quick. You watch your child act strange, become silent, go unconcious, go into seziures, and inject themselves with needles and meds needed to survive several times a day, every day* Not to mention the fact that people don't really eat acorns in the first place. Not unless they are cooked (you can but it'a a pain and tastes like isht) and it is very rare then. It's squirrel food. She's advocating for more air polition and the destruction of animal habitats and food sources.*****

    Mom of Nut-Allergic Teens Asks School to Remove Oak Trees | Free Range Kids

    Julia H November 13, 2012 at 7:53 pm #
    I heard on the news here that she was worried that children with allergies may be targeted by bullies who may shove the acorns into the mouth of those with allergies. So then the issue is no longer the allergy but the bully epidemic.

    Not only that but the discussion was moved to peoples yards and private property...

    Should people be forced to cut down their oak trees because some parents believe their kids are allergic to "nuts?" - Quora

    And then broken legs...

    Trees don't need warning labels. Adults need to relax. : TreeHugger

    I’m no stranger to this twisted perception of trees as Whomping Willows out to get vulnerable little children that many Canadian municipal authorities seem to have. All the trees around the perimeter of my son’s school playground have been cut down ‘for liability reasons,’ according to the town, and not replanted. The result is a scorching hot Astroturf-and-concrete playground that receives no shade during the kids’ hour-long recess at noon. All this summer, I’ve watched majestic maples and pines come crashing down around town, and nobody gives a better reason than “it could fall down and I don’t want to get sued.”

    ^^ They might want to try the obvious counter arguments that trees save human lives every year. Reduce pollutants, help us breath better, provide assistance during natural disasters, shade, homes for wild life, assist in mental heath, climate issues... If these dumb asses want to cut down the trees and watch the whole world die in order to save someone from an acorn or broken bone, rather than educating their child to avoid and not break into the acorn to get the meat or deal with a cast for a few weeks, they need to hurry up and be a victim of natural selection. Just get it over with because that kind of stupid will kill you quick. **It's not hard to find interviews with parents of young kinds in the mid to late 80s-90s gooating because they had reduced bike riding injuries (many by never lettig their kid ride a bike) and were using methods which slow down the childs development and kept their child dependant on them longer while harping about what a great thing that is. Parent that don't want their kids to grow up or develope normally... Yep! Thats great. I don't think many thought past the issues of sex, drugs and rock & roll on that one. Maybe some got too wraped up in not really educating their child on many matters, allowing them to remain the hero that sweeps in and saves the day for much longer. It back fired, from the get go and is now obscene.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    How to Land Your Kid in Therapy: Over Parenting is another excellent video. It is a discussion panel about parents who constantly step in and don't allow their child to gain experience, fail, panic, worry, think on their feet, etc. They addresss parents extreme anxiety over their child not being able to succeed in the global market/life. That does rank #1 when parents are surveyed about worries in the future. Many say it is because Y was the first generation told they would do worse than their parents. Not true. They have said that about 3 generations now and will say it about the next when named. It is a common mantra but parents got obsessed with it during the time line of Y and it has continued to grow along with over scheduling your kids to give them a competitive edge. This is truly only a worry and narrow reality for the wealthy. I know about the insane competition to get kids into academic pre schools (which studies have already shown makes no difference), get them into *insert sport* camp at 3 (resulting in long term stress injuries by the time children reach 18/young adult hood) this at 5, and micromanage all of it. One thing you have probably heard of, which I had not, was red shirting your child. Parents holding back their child and starting them in Kindergarten when they are 6 or 7 so their child will have a competitive edge over classmates.

    ‘Redshirting’ Kindergarten-Age Kids Can Lead to Regrets - NYTimes.com

    They also mention the growing trend of parents taking kids to psychologists in HOPES of their child being diagnosed with a learning disability or disorder so they have a reason to explain why their child is "average". *And in most contexts, what the parents are calling average is actually above average but not excelling to the moon and back* In the above article a parent says we thought out daughter had this and that but she just has extreme introvertedness and is shy. WTF? Psychologists are in turn mind blown by this trend/hysteria in American parenting and trying to figure it out. It discusses TSEM and superiority complexes it instilled in some and the growing fear of being average. I always laugh when I hear about this global market obsession. It's absurd in many cases and has some effed up definitions of success.

    One person on the panel in the video I mentioned knows a man who compares countries job performance, in the types of jobs where it is applicable, and he said Americans were not behind in skill. It has just been the Americans (early 30s and under) not being willing or being unable to problem solve, think on their feet, put in effort to fix or correcr a situation if they can't do it and it is also the Americans demanding raises after 2 months on the job resulting in... Bye bye! So, it's over parenting and a elevated sense of worth.

    **I know I have talked about my oldest nephews and sports here. Nothing against sports in general but they were raised by their yuppie, university professor, grand parents who put them in every camp under the sun and by the time they got into college only one was actually ablw to play basketball anymore. My oldest, who is 28, had suffered so many injuries by the time he was 18, it took him out. The other (almost 26) was done after college. It makes me sick because both were great! No doubt about it. I had no delusiona of them going pro, but I also did not expect to see them plagued with perm. Inj by their late teens. Not only that, but the tricks used by other teams to take out the best kids during games were psychotic. I do mean take out. Is there a global basketball market? Wth
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Registered Users Posts: 15,490 Curl Neophyte
    Can someone answer a question for me? I am curious now. Don't get me wrong. I so not completely object to schools removing nut products from their main lunch menu. I can't recall my school doing a great deal of cooking with nuts anyway. There would be a PB sandwich here but no one was usimg peanut oil, spinkling nuts on our vegetables, making sauces out of peanut butter, etc. Most peanut products came from home. I start saying... Eeeeh :-/ When it gets to banning all kids from bringing nuts. More so when I come across articles saying peanuts have already been banned from the school, children have already been banned from bringing PB products BUT snacks that say "may contain peanuts or peanut oil" are still allowed and a parent is demanding all of those be banned. Along with forcing children to wash their hands as soon as they come in, before they eat lunch, after they eat lunch, and still providing nut free tables in the lunch room which I have heard are seen as a privilage to some. The kids can invite students with safe lunches to sit with them and its kind of a big deal. *I personally think you would catch more hell for sitting at the "No Nuts" or "Nut Free* tables, considering more boys have the allergy. Kids are... kids* Okay, if you have banned all peanut products, why do you still need seperate tables and 2 additional hand washings a day? Hand washing is good if it's not excessive, just making a point. And to get to mine... How does all of the excess tie into catering children with a disability which must he done! Diabetes is a disability as well. I know numerous diabetics amd hypoglycemics who depend on nuts for a quick shot of protien to help regularw blood sugar. It can be easily kept in a bag and does not need refrigeration. It's better than icing or fruit juice which may shoot it up too high. It's got to be good with the kids too. How do you ban all peanuts for one disability and deprive them for another? Have they banned fruit juice in school because it could make a childs blood sugar spike? Whole milk? Rasins? Or can mama still throw some Sunmaids in your bag and a Caprisun?

    *Orange juice? Carbs? Of course if you got into all the ins and outs with diabetics you'd ban everything but water and salad with beans and nuts but you still need to watch out for the red onions. :)

    ETA: Do note, I am aware most parents who have kids w/ nut allergies do not support complete bans and for sure most do not support going to extremes. The risk for anaphylaxis is the same w/ eggs, milk, wheat and seafood but the majority of schools do not ban those. Many switched to wheat and whole grain. Though one Canadian family was advocating for school systems to provide a safe space by banning all of the above for their disabled daughter who will hopefully grow out of some, if not all, of her allergies. The thing is, that severely affects other children with medical illnesses but the parents refused any other lunch time options given to champion for their child. Also, it shown completely removing these things actually ups the chances for kids developing allergies to them and causes an unneeded fear. Employees in children's hospitals saw a huge rise in incorrect parental diagnosis of allergies, out of fear, and parents bringing their kids in to be tested for "peanut butter disease". They just knew peanuts were banned and thought it was due to tainted peanut products. They wanted to see if their child had been exposed.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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