The problem with co washing

I have scoured the internet to find you some very legitimate reasons why poo is a do (that was kind of cheesy) anyway on with the points
disclaimer; I am in no way bashing anyone who uses the no poo method, I am simply trying to pass on information that will help you decide if co washing is for you

conditioner will not remove everything
Conditioner in not a cleanser, it can't remove all the oil and product on you're scalp, it can remove some of it but not all and the build up will cause you're scalp to become itchy and flaky

shampoo and conditioner need each other
Shampoo has a negative charge (anionic surfactant). Conditioner has a positive charge (cationic), your hair needs both in order to be healthy. When you continuously use a positive charge on your hair you slowly weaken it because the cortex of your hair will swell (if over moisturized) and lead to breakage. The swelling causes the hair to feel soft but dont be deceived this isnt a good thing

shampoo helps hair grow
Plain and simple, oil and product buildup can reduce hair growth, hair grows best when the scalp is healthy and not loaded with dead skin cells, which leads me to...

conditioner can't remove conditioner
Conditioner works for 30 minutes max, it fills the cracks of each strand and after every crack has been filled it has nowhere else to go so it simply sits on top of the hair and slowly weakens it (as explained above) You've probably been told to leave a wash out conditioner in after a shower (thanks loraine) don't do this! The conditioner will lose its moisturizing effect after 30 minutes and will weigh hair down, whats worse is you can't remove conditioner with conditioner, positive won't remove positive, there's a difference between rinse and leave in and there's a reason for that

Companies lie
Many shampoos are formulated with a low pH. The acidity of shampoo raises the hair cuticle, making it easier to remove dirt and product buildup. A "cleansing" conditioner just can't do this, shampoos also have detergents that clean the hair and scalp. I know you've been told that detergents are bad for your hair (again thanks loraine) but unless your washing 12 times a day it's not going to destroy you're hair, think about washing you're hands without soap, the dirt just won't come off, the same go's for the scalp, however not all shampoos are created equal, some are more harsh than others, finding a low lather shampoo and applying conditioner to the ends of the hair before cleansing will help to protect you're hair

Baking soda won't cut it
So you"ve got a ridiculous amount of oily build up on you're head? Put that baking soda down lady!

"With a pH of 9 – one hundred times more basic than water – baking soda is a known alkaline irritant (Journal of Cutaneous Pathology, 1989). According to renowned dermatologist Dr. Audrey Kunin, M.D., “The first principle of shampooing: make sure your shampoo says it is pH-balanced and avoid those that are alkaline. Alkaline shampoos strip the hair’s natural oils and disrupt the acid mantle, causing dehydration and leading to porous, fragile hair.” (The DermaDoctor SkinStruction Manual, 2005)

"Using highly alkaline solutions on your hair (baking soda, bronners soaps, etc.) though it feels soft and manageable that is really the disulfide bonds in your internal hair structure being weakened by the alkaline solution… To then bring your hair down to it’s proper pH a acidic solution (apple cider vinegar) when using a alkalinic cleanser is used, this is called clarifying. This dual process is not healthy for your hair or your scalp."

The basic pH of baking soda can damage hair even if it is followed by acidic vinegar, that doesn't leave very many options for a cleanser other then shampoo

Know your ph
"natural pH level is between 4.5 and 5, which is important, because anything that you put on your hair that differs from that, is going to damage it. Even tap water, with its pH around 7 can cause damage to your hair, especially if your water is treated with toxic chemicals like chlorine."
One thing i don't understand is why curlies are told to use baking soda that has a ph of 9, baking soda can't do what shampoo can. Shampoo is designed to dissolve dirt, baking soda is used to get rid of rust and stains!

Water won't wash off oil
In the curly girl handbook you're told to massage the oil out with water, that just won't work because water can't remove oil, think about it, oil repels water and you can't use conditioner to remove oil either, in conclusion i honestly think a lot of girls need shampoo and conditioner to have a clean scalp and some companies preaching the "no poo movement" might have ulterior motives.
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Comments

  • BluebloodBlueblood Posts: 1,748Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    You are actually bashing posters on this site.

    People here use a mixture of methods to keep their hair clean.

    Some do conditioner washing almost exclusively other do a mixture of methods.

    Added to that not all hair products are formulated the same, not everyone lives in the same environment factors such as water and temperature, and people have different lifestyles.
  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    I'm not bashing anyone, didn't you read my disclaimer? I'm just sharing information about the negative side of co-washing, which isn't talked about a lot, I'm very sorry if I offended you, if no poo works for you then that's great but it's not for everyone and I think there's too much pressure put on curly girls to do Co washing and I think everyone should have all the information before they decide what to do but if you want me to write about the pros I can.
  • djonae18djonae18 Posts: 43Registered Users
    I like hearing the science of everything hair related & what you said makes sense. I can't co wash exclusively because my psoriasis will go crazy but i've always wanted to. I dont think the effects are as drastic as the science is making it seem, but i do think shampoo is more important than a lot of curlies think. Thanks for the info!

    Sent from my LG-D959 using CurlTalk App
  • eveumeveum Posts: 744Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    She isn't bashing anyone. People are free to talk and have a discussion about the science involved behind haircare. If it's not what you want to hear then move along.

    I've always cringed when I hear about people using baking soda and/or vinegar on either their face or their hair. Or lemon juice on their face. Especially if it's in favour of some 'natural alternative' BS.

    I am honestly so tired of this kind of marketing. Of labeling every synthetic ingredient as dangerous or cancer causing, just to scare consumers and to push their own natural agenda. Natural ingredients (like lemon juice, vinegar, essential oils), can be just as damaging and toxic as synthetics. Think of the crap mineral oil gets for example, it is extremely refined, pure and safe for humans to use, but everyone seems to think it's bad or dangerous somehow because it came from crude oil. I'd wager that synthetic ingredients/products are much more rigorously tested and regulated than natural ones.

    Their is so much ******** floating around, especially on the internet. To the point where I automatically roll my eyes if someone mentions apple cider vinegar. Their is always a new craze being pushed as a miracle worker, goji berries, ACV, coconut oil. Put simply I just can't be arsed with it. I don't care if it is a miracle worker or not, if you use scare tactics and deliberately con and mislead customers to get it to that position, all while hiding behind some sort of wholesome green image, then I don't care. I think this sort of thing is damaging to consumers.

    Anyway, that kind of went off-topic. On the subject of hair, I've never been interested in conditioner washing, I use shampoo and my hair is having a great time. I know that to remove my makeup, my cream cleanser just doesn't cut it, and if I use it solely and consistently I am left with a film on my skin. When I use both a cream cleanser and a gentle detergent based face wash, the combination gets makeup off without drying my skin. I sort of think about hair like that too.

    Low Shampoo: Aveda Be Curly Shampoo
    Conditioner: Tresemme Naturals Nourishing Moisture/ Perfectly Undone
    Treatments: SM Black Castor Oil Masque/ Packet Gelatine
    Leave in: Redken Diamond Oil Conditioner
    Styling: AG Recoil Curl Activator/V05 Mega Hold/Cornstarch
    Refresh: Redken Fresh Curls Curl Boost


    Between Waist and Hip Length (stretched), 2C with 2B roots
  • CurlyFelineCurlyFeline Posts: 156Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    djonae18 wrote: »
    I like hearing the science of everything hair related & what you said makes sense. I can't co wash exclusively because my psoriasis will go crazy but i've always wanted to. I dont think the effects are as drastic as the science is making it seem, but i do think shampoo is more important than a lot of curlies think. Thanks for the info!

    Sent from my LG-D959 using CurlTalk App

    same here! I now use a baby shampoo without perfume. I feel like my scalp can "breathe" better.
    3A curly (cherub curls)
    fine, med to low density, rather low porosity
  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    Yes girl thank you! I think is bs that we're being told that co washing is good for all hair, especially in the curly girl handbook, the truth is it can be damaging and a lot of what's in that book is her trying to promote her products, kinda shameful
  • claudine191claudine191 Posts: 8,221Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    I tried to go no poo, and it was a disaster. My hair became flat and oily. Shampoo works for me as a 2; I know that other types thrive without it, and that's great. I don't think K. is being offensive — she's just presenting another option and sharing some information.
  • sheilacurlsheilacurl Posts: 1,240Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Another thing about Lorraine's book that bothers me is how she calls blowdrying, 'blowfrying'. Then sells her Deva blowdryer for almost $200. It's terrible for your hair but use mine and forget that I ever called it 'blowfrying' haha :D
    Upper Michigan Dews
    3a ~ Fine ~ High Porosity ~ Normal Density

    NoPoo: JC Cleansing Cream
    Rinse Outs: SS:PRT, CJ Repair Me, CJ Argan
    Detangler: KCKT
    Leave-in: CJ Repair me
    Stylers: UFDCM, BRHG
    Refreshers: Batiste (dry shampoo) on the roots & UFDCM everywhere else

    iHerb Discount Code: SAF007

  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    Exactly! The only reason she says you should never ever straighten your hair is because she doesn't sell straighteners lol, there's no scientific evidence that straightening hair once in a while will ruin it forever and there's tons of ways to minimize damage

    Sent from my cave
  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    I tried to go no poo, and it was a disaster. My hair became flat and oily. Shampoo works for me as a 2; I know that other types thrive without it, and that's great. I don't think K. is being offensive — she's just presenting another option and sharing some information.

    I got the same results using the no poo method, I tried looking up why this was happening and was shocked at the overwhelming amount of evidence against co washing (especially for type 2 or 3 hair) and the lack of articles on this website talking about why it's not always the best option. In masseys book she basically tells you no poo is the only option and you need too throw out all shampoo, but our hair isn't created equal and we all have different needs, I'm just trying to remind people that there are pros and cons to everything and sometimes you can get caught up in the hype of something without knowing if it will be beneficial to your specific needs, like it or not we all need to understand the science of our hair so we have the power and not the companies that will take advantage of people who are misinformed

    Sent from my cave
  • claudine191claudine191 Posts: 8,221Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    I think Massey was trying to address the needs of Types 3 & 4 more than Type 2s. She wrote an update to the original book that may feature more about 2s, but I'm not sure. I do think she filled an important place in the market and initiated a lot of positive feedback and suggestions at the time she originally published. I can't recall whether she addressed the needs of AA hair types within the first book, I just remember that when I tried her methods as a Type 2, it was a bomb. Clearly, she wasn't writing for everyone......and that was perhaps the point.

    Therefore, I think she still deserves credit. I also believe this site fills (or filled) an important gap for many of those with curls, especially in the early years. Here is a link with more information and background: Michelle Breyer talks Curly Hair and NaturallyCurly.com for the launch of new Oribe Curl Gloss

    Who can say for certain that NC begat the many sites that now exist for all types of waves and curls? I'm just glad they exist, though I'd certainly like to see more info. for wavies.
  • CatitudeBooCatitudeBoo Posts: 590Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    I think Massey has a lot of great insight and knowledge about curly hair but her methods are to be taken with a huge grain of salt. Using only conditioner & gel sounds too good to be true, and it is for a lot of curlies. Also, I'm not throwing out all of my brushes, shampoos or flat-irons. Finger-combing takes too long. Shampoo is good for removing a month's worth of product residue that co-washing did not take care of. My flat-irons cost $100 or more a piece and they still work seven years later, which was a great investment. I'm not throwing them away.

    Her knowledge has helped my hair immensely but it's much too ridiculous or unrealistic to follow the CG method to a tee.
    CG since Dec. 2013  B)
    3b/c ~ fine ~ high porosity ~ low density
    No-Poo: SheaMoisture Manuka Honey & Mafura Oil Shampoo 
    RO: Tresemme Botanique Nourish & Replenish Conditioner 
    Stylers: Tresemme Flawless Curls Mousse & Extra Hold Hairspray 


  • claudine191claudine191 Posts: 8,221Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    That's one of the reasons I quit seeing Deva stylists; following the CG method so strictly was an exercise in frustration and rigidity of rules.
  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    I was thinking of going to a deva salon but im skeptical, is that the only reason you stopped going?
  • MsPMsP Posts: 116Registered Users
    I think it is always perfectly fine to pick and choose what works for you. I co wash but ( do not like many of the other techniques some curlies use. One example is that I do not use styling aids that would necessitate use of drying harsh shampoos. Others will prefer to shampoo while using styling aids and gels that build up. Even twins may use different hair regimens due to different tastes. It is perfectly fine to customize your own regimen that suits you as an individual. I also see the hypocrisy in claiming that using heat to blow dry straight is bad while promoting using heat to add curls by scrunching.
    My Routine:
    Coconut oil drench the night before I co-wash
    then cowash and deep condition each time w/ Keracare Humecto, Joico Moisture Recovery and/or ApHogee 2min
    then usually airdry
    Grapeseed oil nightly

    (no gel, mouse, or hair spray. My delicate, fine hair will tear if I even try to run my fingers through it with any of those. :angel9:)
    My go to leave ins are now: my regular conditioners listed above, gs oil, or PW77
  • frcklsfrckls Posts: 528Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I didn't think kyahail meant to bash anyone, but I wouldn't present my case that way if I were her. I agree that info on co-washing and other curly hair care has been often taken to the extreme. Some articles often present correct or supportable premises on the first part of the facts, but then the following facts and/or conclusion baffled me most of the times.

    Kyahail's post makes sense on a lot of points, but someone with a noob knowledge on ingredients and formulation may also have some questions.

    For example, cationic surfactants are emulsifier, so they mix oil and water. How would one explain the possibility (or the lack of it) of conditioners working as cleansers, to a certain extent, since it emulsifies oil and residue on our hair and scalp with water from the shower to give way to the running water to wash some residues off? Of course, even if it was scientifically correct, different head has different needs. Some experience buildup more easily than others.

    I didn't mean to contest, I was truly honestly curious if such analogy makes sense, or even scientifically correct.

    My hair happens to be able to withstand co-washing for at least a couple weeks straight before clarifying. But I think my hair grows just fine or no difference than when I was still using shampoo on every wash.

    Besides, sebum is natural lubricant of our skin that protects it from elements, so I'm not sure stripping it out completely wreaks havoc on the chance of our hair grows faster. People with troublesome scalp may need more frequent shampooing, but I remember I used to love my icky lanky 3 days hair before going CG. It's the time the sebum reached the length of my hair and made it look gorgeous, although my roots looked exceptionally greasy.
    I know that it can be easily managed by conditioning the length prior to washing and just shampoo the scalp, but I just never managed to not lather the whole head.

    For some reason, I also believe that "buildup" is sometimes what one's hair need to be in control. If left all gunky, or using one one's hair does not like, sure it makes no good. But my hair happens to like a lot of conditioner. although I never leave it for long.

    Notwithstanding, I love how my scalp feels after clarifying but I also love how my hair looks on cowashing. So I just clarify once every week or two and co-wash in between to pseudo-clean my scalp. Still serves me well thus far.

    I don't condone practitioners of the extreme who are mis or under informed. If it works for them, great. Although, I'd prefer for myself to learn more so I can make educated choices. However, I do strongly support the phrase "to each their own". No one can just think all heads can be treated the same.
    2B/C canopy & 2A/B underlayer
    coarse | low-normal porosity | normal elasticity | low-med density
    (by GoosefootPrints)

    Clarify: Suave Daily Clarifying Shampoo, Citric acid rinse
    RO/LI: Jason Moisturizing 84% Aloe Vera / Paul Mitchell The Conditioner
    Styler: DIY Okra Jelly / Paul Mitchell Thicken Up / Shu Uemura Cotton Uzu Flexible Defining Cream
    Treatment: H&B Wonder Oil + VCO, Honey-Cardamom-EVOO-Chamomile
  • jeepcurlygurljeepcurlygurl Posts: 20,729Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Curl Virtuoso
    Everyone is different. Some people want to use shampoo, silicones, sulfates, etc. It works for them. That's great.
    CG is simple, cheap, and easy for me and others. I haven't used shampoo in many years and my hair is clean and healthy. That's great too.
    Telling people that they MUST use shampoo is as ridiculous as telling people they can NEVER use shampoo.
    For thousands of years people didn't have shampoo OR conditioner and the human race didn't die out.

    ETA Now I see another thread with some of the same info as posted in this thread. So maybe there is an anti-CG thing going on here? Otherwise I don't understand why anyone would go to the time and effort to research something and post it in a forum where they know everyone does the opposite. It's like me going into the Straightening forum and telling them they should stop straightening their hair because research show flatirons are damaging.
    --I'm located in Western PA.   --I found NC in late 2004, CG since February 2005, joined the forums in May 2005, started going grey in late 2005.   --My hair is 3B with some 3A, currently at mid back length when dry,  texture-medium/fine, porosity-top is low, middle is medium, ends are porous, elasticity-normal.   --My long time favorite products are Suave & VO5 conditioners, LA Looks Sport Gel, coconut oil, honey, vinegar.   
    --My CG and grey hair progress -  
    http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/going-gray/179328-jeepys-grey-hair-progress.html   
    --My article at NaturallyCurly about going grey - 
    https://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/color/how-i-went-completely-gray-and-loved-it
  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    Everyone is different. Some people want to use shampoo, silicones, sulfates, etc. It works for them. That's great.
    CG is simple, cheap, and easy for me and others. I haven't used shampoo in many years and my hair is clean and healthy. That's great too.
    Telling people that they MUST use shampoo is as ridiculous as telling people they can NEVER use shampoo.
    For thousands of years people didn't have shampoo OR conditioner and the human race didn't die out.

    ETA Now I see another thread with some of the same info as posted in this thread. So maybe there is an anti-CG thing going on here? Otherwise I don't understand why anyone would go to the time and effort to research something and post it in a forum where they know everyone does the opposite. It's like me going into the Straightening forum and telling them they should stop straightening their hair because research show flatirons are damaging.

    Ok first of all cg isn't any more cheap because you have to buy clarifying conditioner instead of shampoo, which can actually be more expensive, especially if your buying from "high end brands" like devacurl, secondly I never said you must use shampoo, I said a lot of girls need it, and yes people have had shampoo and conditioner for thousands of year's, I don't know where you're getting your facts from. I don't think there's an "anti cg movement " you're being a little dramatic, and finally you said in that everyone is different and then you said everyone uses the cg method, make up your mind! And I did this research and wrote this for all the girl's who don't know why cg doesn't work for them and why it shouldn't be recommended for everyone, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't, if you're pissed because I provided research that you don't like then you need to sit your ass down and call a therapist and talk about your control issues



    Sent from; Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  • eveumeveum Posts: 744Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Trying to censor or question why someone is presenting an argument for something other than what you consider 'what everyone else is doing' (they're not by the way, plenty of people here don't co wash or worship Lorraine Massey) is BS. It's called DISCUSSION.

    Also CG or mod CG is not cheap. At all. Especially in certain countries

    Low Shampoo: Aveda Be Curly Shampoo
    Conditioner: Tresemme Naturals Nourishing Moisture/ Perfectly Undone
    Treatments: SM Black Castor Oil Masque/ Packet Gelatine
    Leave in: Redken Diamond Oil Conditioner
    Styling: AG Recoil Curl Activator/V05 Mega Hold/Cornstarch
    Refresh: Redken Fresh Curls Curl Boost


    Between Waist and Hip Length (stretched), 2C with 2B roots
  • frcklsfrckls Posts: 528Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I think it's unfair to include expenses into this discussion. It is a variable in the equation of each individual in going CG, but one cannot just jump into pricing variable, as if using it as a scapegoat for the subject of the discussion.

    Having that said, I am not against any statement about pricing. But, it heavily depends on the individual. It may or may not be cheap, just like caring for straight or relaxed hair. There are many straight hair care that involves 6 different products. Caring for relaxed hair would be as fussy, too. How fussy and pricey it can get depends on the person.

    Hence PJs. They keep thriving for the possibility of a healthier prettier hair, so they constantly spending money for the purpose.
    Even for non-PJs, there are some who only believe in or, unfortunately enough, can only use brands in the middle-upper price brackets.
    Geographical location unfortunately decides on the end expense calculation, too. But, I am in a geographically non-CG friendly location. I see curlies rather rarely and I managed to find CG-safe products only in health stores, which industry thrives due to the amount of expats. I spent so much time in grocery stores (lots of them) reading the ingredients list.
    However, US and UK peeps are lucky to have a lot of different ethnicity, so they have many exotic products readily available. In some EU countries, supermarket own brands have many CG-safe products. People in Africa and Asia have many exotic ingredients readily available, piled up in local markets for cheap. Back home, my grandmother used to make her own coconut oil, from scratch.

    I can build my cowash routine with around Eur 6. Mind you prices in where I live are high. Eur 2 for a liter of a simple, bottom-shelf brand conditioner to cowash and Eur 4.3 for Suave Pro Captivating Curls Mousse 200ml. But, the conditioner smells like something you use to scrub your bathroom and Suave mousse isn't CG, so I gotta find something else. Something that smells nice, CG, works for my hair and readily available. If I didn't find Inecto and The Body Shop, my next option was salon-brands.

    US people are really lucky since they're spoiled with a plethora of products that cater different needs in any price bracket. They can spend $2 for a liter of VO5 cond and $4 for a gel or mousse. A few dollars more for oils and a clarifying shampoo that won't run out in a month or two. They are not compelled to buy pricier products, but they want to. And if they can and are willing, I don't see a problem. If they want to be frugal and spend less, it's not a problem, too. A simple treatment of honey, oil and tea can make real cheap treat, but there are also readily available products with more exotic additives and some have the means to pay for it. It all depends on preferences.
    2B/C canopy & 2A/B underlayer
    coarse | low-normal porosity | normal elasticity | low-med density
    (by GoosefootPrints)

    Clarify: Suave Daily Clarifying Shampoo, Citric acid rinse
    RO/LI: Jason Moisturizing 84% Aloe Vera / Paul Mitchell The Conditioner
    Styler: DIY Okra Jelly / Paul Mitchell Thicken Up / Shu Uemura Cotton Uzu Flexible Defining Cream
    Treatment: H&B Wonder Oil + VCO, Honey-Cardamom-EVOO-Chamomile
  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    I live in rural canada, I'm definitely not spoiled with options and I pay $10 for hair oil (minimum) not $3, and I think cg is just as expensive as buying shampoo, and probably more time consuming because you have to make concoctions of cleansers in your kitchen to get the dirt off your head, I don't care if people do cg, but they shouldn't say it's easier or cheaper because it's not and for some people it's not healthier either

    Sent from; Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  • frcklsfrckls Posts: 528Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    kyahail wrote: »
    I live in rural canada, I'm definitely not spoiled with options and I pay $10 for hair oil (minimum) not $3, and I think cg is just as expensive as buying shampoo, and probably more time consuming because you have to make concoctions of cleansers in your kitchen to get the dirt off your head, I don't care if people do cg, but they shouldn't say it's easier or cheaper because it's not and for some people it's not healthier either

    Sent from; Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry
    I did not mean to point out any location in particular, I was giving some general examples. My point was, if you're lucky enough to be in a location that has abundant sources, even though they may not commonly known, on the internet for one, look around and you may find use of it.

    I completely share your pain because even though I live in a country packed with expats and a member of EU and I can find a few products marketed in Italy and/or UK, CG products are definitely unheard of. The island is tiny and I don't see healthy curly hair being the common style in here. Not just "healthy/natural" products, but all products in general are pricy in here.

    But again, time consuming is also irrelevant to be limited to only CG. For example, my routine now is a bit fussier and takes a bit longer (20-25 minutes: shower and air-dry) than pre-CG (15 minutes: shower and air-dry), but much less than my pre-CG BBQ period (45-90 minutes: shower and blowdry), as my dad used to call it LOL.

    However, I strongly agree with you that going CG does not necessarily mean that it's cheaper and easier and one shall not equate the practice to such characteristics. Is it "healthy"? Not necessarily always. Is it "healthi-ER"? It might, again depends on the practice.
    2B/C canopy & 2A/B underlayer
    coarse | low-normal porosity | normal elasticity | low-med density
    (by GoosefootPrints)

    Clarify: Suave Daily Clarifying Shampoo, Citric acid rinse
    RO/LI: Jason Moisturizing 84% Aloe Vera / Paul Mitchell The Conditioner
    Styler: DIY Okra Jelly / Paul Mitchell Thicken Up / Shu Uemura Cotton Uzu Flexible Defining Cream
    Treatment: H&B Wonder Oil + VCO, Honey-Cardamom-EVOO-Chamomile
  • SystemSystem Posts: 39,060 Administrator
    Kyahail and others this may pertain to, please review the rules and guidelines as this will serve as your only warning.

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  • jeepcurlygurljeepcurlygurl Posts: 20,729Registered Users, Curl Ambassador Curl Virtuoso
    I've been here a long time. Anyone who knows me knows I am almost never dramatic, so that is humorous.
    You all say this is a discussion, so I'm discussing. I said most people in the CG forum do CG, and that's the point of this particular forum. If you go into a forum to refute what most everyone in that forum is into, it's just kind of odd to me. Again, it's like me going into the straightening forum and telling them how awful straightening your hair is. And I could easily find research online that shows using flat irons and relaxers is harmful to hair. But since I don't straighten my hair, why would it concern me? Just as I don't understand why CG concerns anyone who doesn't do it. It just makes it look a bit suspicious to see 2 new members go into this forum to 'discuss' the negatives of something that most everyone in this forum does with their hair.
    I think everyone can have their opinion, but it all has it's place. It just seems argumentative in THIS forum, especially from new members who don't tell us how long they tried CG or why it didn't work for them, etc. If it were a topic that said "I tried CG and it didn't work for me", it would be a better discussion.

    I don't speak for everyone in the world and I don't want others to speak for me. CG is extremely inexpensive for me. I do not use high end anything. I use conditioner that costs $1 for a big bottle, gel for $3 for a huge bottle, honey and coconut oil and vinegar that are in my kitchen cupboard. I cut my own hair. That's it. These are the products I've been using for 10 years and I have long clean healthy happy hair. I also know people who don't do CG who have healthy happy hair. They don't see the need to tell me the negatives of CG and I don't see the need to tell them the negatives of shampoo. shrug.
    --I'm located in Western PA.   --I found NC in late 2004, CG since February 2005, joined the forums in May 2005, started going grey in late 2005.   --My hair is 3B with some 3A, currently at mid back length when dry,  texture-medium/fine, porosity-top is low, middle is medium, ends are porous, elasticity-normal.   --My long time favorite products are Suave & VO5 conditioners, LA Looks Sport Gel, coconut oil, honey, vinegar.   
    --My CG and grey hair progress -  
    http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/going-gray/179328-jeepys-grey-hair-progress.html   
    --My article at NaturallyCurly about going grey - 
    https://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/color/how-i-went-completely-gray-and-loved-it
  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    I've been here a long time. Anyone who knows me knows I am almost never dramatic, so that is humorous.
    You all say this is a discussion, so I'm discussing. I said most people in the CG forum do CG, and that's the point of this particular forum. If you go into a forum to refute what most everyone in that forum is into, it's just kind of odd to me. Again, it's like me going into the straightening forum and telling them how awful straightening your hair is. And I could easily find research online that shows using flat irons and relaxers is harmful to hair. But since I don't straighten my hair, why would it concern me? Just as I don't understand why CG concerns anyone who doesn't do it. It just makes it look a bit suspicious to see 2 new members go into this forum to 'discuss' the negatives of something that most everyone in this forum does with their hair.
    I think everyone can have their opinion, but it all has it's place. It just seems argumentative in THIS forum, especially from new members who don't tell us how long they tried CG or why it didn't work for them, etc. If it were a topic that said "I tried CG and it didn't work for me", it would be a better discussion.

    I don't speak for everyone in the world and I don't want others to speak for me. CG is extremely inexpensive for me. I do not use high end anything. I use conditioner that costs $1 for a big bottle, gel for $3 for a huge bottle, honey and coconut oil and vinegar that are in my kitchen cupboard. I cut my own hair. That's it. These are the products I've been using for 10 years and I have long clean healthy happy hair. I also know people who don't do CG who have healthy happy hair. They don't see the need to tell me the negatives of CG and I don't see the need to tell them the negatives of shampoo. shrug.

    Yes I'm part of the hair illuminate sent here to tell you not to co wash lol, I don't see why you care so much that I posted research in a forum that's supposed to be about my topic. I don't see why this would offend anyone, I'm trying to help people understand why it might not be right for them even though its praised all over this site. If it works for you then keep doing it but everybody deserves the right to know pros and cons, if my thread offends ANYONE then I honestly don't care, if you're unstable enough to get angry over the fact that I don't like "no poo" and you like censoring research because you don't agree with it then go away

    P.s just because the research I did doesn't relate to you personally doesn't mean it's not important information



    Sent from; Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  • kyahailkyahail Posts: 67Banned Users
    noodly wrote: »
    THANK YOU OP! I was too scared to say this too because this woman http://youtu.be/Qo5bG2sVEv4 got bashed by allot of baking soda users.

    Damn she got drug hard, it's a shame people are afraid to express opinions because of the backlash, science is science even if you don't like it


    Sent from; Hogwarts school of Witchcraft and Wizardry
  • tengoRizostengoRizos Posts: 195Registered Users
    People usually find Naturally Curly and CurlTalk because they are fed up with what their hair is doing. They are willing to try anything, and since going CG is such a drastic change from anything they've ever tried before, with all of the rules and such, they notice a difference. Sometimes it works out well, other times not. I dont think the OP was telling people who enjoy cowashing not to do it (if so, mind your own damn business OP. It's my hair I'll do what I want ;) *sarcasm* ). But I think she was providing scientific reasoning for why CG and cowashing doesnt work for everyone.

    No one hair thing (product, technique, regimen, haircut) works for everyone. If your hair is looking like you want it to, who cares what you use...unless you are murdering puppies or something
    2c/3a mix and very fine, normal porosity
    Shampoo: Loreal EverSleek Sulfate-free (Only 1 or 2x a week)

    CoWash Suave Naturals Coconut or VO5 Kiwi Lime Squeeze

    Rinse Out: Giovanni 2chic Avocado and Olive Oil or GVPCB

    Leave in: More Suave Naturals Coconut or GVPCB Always diluted with water/epsom salt spray

    Products: AG Re:coil with EcoStyler Olive Oil gel or HETT gel


  • CurlyInTheFogCurlyInTheFog Posts: 876Registered Users
    Censorship = suppression of speech; since no one here has the power to do that outside of the moderators, the accusations of censorship are a little overblown. On the other hand, this is a discussion forum, which would lead one to believe that, if anything, what is encouraged here is...discussion. You don't have to agree, but you don't get to tell anyone to go away because you don't like what they say. If you don't like CO, no problem. Other people do like it, and have as much right to say so as you do to say otherwise.

    I think it would make more sense to post this in the General Discussion forum rather than in the Shampoo Free forum.
    3a/b, F, normal porosity

    Suave conditioner, LAL gel
  • ttoosdayttoosday Posts: 509Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    I don't know, my opinion is (and I pride myself on having a good amount of common sense) that the majority of users (though I am not speaking for anyone but myself) on this forum are happily experimenting with cg methods and/or products or happily using the same as a mainstay in their hair care routine. Yes, there is research out there supporting the opposite philosophy but I think common sense tells me that very few users here are interested in it. Its just not necessary here in this relatively pro-cg arena. Any readers who do not find cg method or products working for them (again, not speaking for anyone, just stating what I believe to be common sense) may then be motivated to seek out research like this. Otherwise it appears to me that this research was brought to this place to be argumentative and abrasive under the guise of well rounded discussion and education. I know the OP will argue against this, and that's fine. The only point I want to make is that whether the OP realizes or not, this type of research may be unnecessarily abrasive in this particular community. She either knew that, or she didn't. I have always had faith in people that when they know better, they do better. At least I hope, anyway.
    CG since 11/2014
    Mostly 2B, but ranges A-C front to back and root to tip
    Low density, very coarse, high porosity
    Collarbone length, gray dyed brown, dry and rough
    Typical LEG routine could be any combination of:
    Lo poo: Shea Moisture brand shampoo, Ion Hard Water Shampoo
    Cowash: As I Am Coc Cowash
    RO: GVP CB, Aussie Mega Moist, Not Your Mothers Gardenia
    Leave In: As I Am LI, KCKT, or Not Your Mothers Gardenia
    Enhancer: Camille Rose Curl Maker
    Deep condition: SM Deep Treat Mask
    Protein: Hask Keratin
    Styler: Curl Keeper Original, Ouidad Climate Control gel, LA Looks gel
  • BluebloodBlueblood Posts: 1,748Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Kyahail claims in her second post that there is too much pressure put on curlies to do co-washing as a reason for posting the research.

    However she obviously hasn't been on this site for long otherwise she would be aware that some posters are advised to use shampoo.

    I still think the aim of this thread is to bash those who use other methods of cleaning their hair, otherwise it wouldn't be posted in this section.

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