Let's Talk About Affirmative Consent

Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
This topic might have the potential to get a little graphic/blunt/honest at times and might be upsetting for some, for several different reasons. That said, I think it is one worthy of discussion even if it is only affecting college students. I'll share 2 links. One for and one against. After you have had a chance to read, share your thoughts and opinions.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2014/06/25/3453041/affirmative-consent-really-means/

http://reason.com/archives/2014/06/22/californias-absurd-intervention-over-dor/


I fully believe in the importance of consent, especially when you are entering into a new relationship and getting to know a person. If they say no, listen BUT I personally see this as intrusive sex policing. Must one really have to continuously ask for consent, multiple times, during every step of every sexual encounter, with someone they have been with for 3 years? First of all, it's not going last 3 years if that is going on. This is not at all saying a person in a long term relationship can not be forced to have sex when they are unwilling. I just don't see a need to constantly affirm and micromanage every little detail. It takes away from the spontaneous moments, gives the impression that a woman can not and will not give directives/speak her mind, and also discounts getting to know someone very well on an intimate level. It also does nothing to clear up muddy waters. It's not like a person can not give consent every step of the way and then retract or someone can take while insisting consent was given. That's the thing about those who assault and exploit. They are going to do it regardless. According to the second link, a cluster of confusion around this "unambiguous" policy is already present and had been for some time.

Just to clarify the text below is from the 2nd piece:

Where this is going next is anyone's guess. Perhaps there will be a push to bring similar reforms to criminal law: after all, why should sexual assault on college campuses be defined differently than in the real world? Or perhaps the activists will decide that "yes means yes" is not enough, either. In fact, that's happening already. A list of clarifications about consent on some campus posters stipulates that "if they don't feel free to say no, it's not consent" (meaning that at least in theory even explicit verbal agreement can be invalidated). And a new campus campaign in Canada warns that "if it's not loud and clear, it's not consent, it's sexual assault," using posters with the words "fine," "okay," and "sure" in tiny print to make the point that consent expressed in a "muted" or "uncertain" doesn't count. Perhaps they can tell us the proper decibel level for a "Yes."
When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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Comments

  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    One paragraph from the first piece keeps troubling me.

    "The current societal script on sex assumes that passivity and silence essentially, the lack of a no means it’s okay to proceed. That’s on top of the fact that male sexuality has been socially defined as aggressive, something that can result in men feeling entitled to sex, while women have been taught that sex is something that simply happens to them rather than something they're an active participant in."

    That is very much so coming from a victim perspective/mentality. Being knocked unconscious and assaulted "happened to me". I actively participate in sex.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Pardon, I have to add one more. I was just thinking about trust issues this may create, while trying to do the opposite, when I came across this. It's a commentary on the POV of a 30 year old journalist/political analyst who works with MSNBC. He is for Affirmative consent.

    http://m.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2014/10/an-apalling-case-for-affirmative-consent-laws/381518/#

    "Extreme problems require extreme solutions. When wrongdoers are going unpunished, intrusive countermeasures are justified, even if they create new victims. Innocent-until-proven-guilty is nice in theory, but untenable in practice. The state should strike fear into innocents if it leads to fewer victims of violent crime.

    Ugly problems don't always have pretty solutions.

    These are the sorts of value judgments one expects from supporters of Stop and Frisk, "three strikes" laws, the prison at Gitmo, and racial profiling to stop illegal immigration. They're also the value judgments that Ezra Klein invokes in his endorsement of a California law requiring affirmative consent for sex on the state's college campuses. As he puts it, "Ugly problems don't always have pretty solutions."


    Here is what Klein believes:

    The number of sexual assault victims is "far too high," so high as to justify "sweeping" and "intrusive" legal measures–specifically, California's new law.

    This law is "sweeping in its redefinition of acceptable consent."

    The law could define as rape "two college seniors who've been in a loving relationship since they met during the first week of their freshman years, and who, with the ease of the committed, slip naturally from cuddling to sex."

    The law intrudes on "the most private and intimate of adult acts."

    The law's "overreach is precisely its value."

    The law "will settle like a cold winter on college campuses, throwing everyday sexual practice into doubt."

    The law will create "a haze of fear and confusion over what counts as consent."

    If successful, the law will cause all or most college men "to feel a cold spike of fear when they begin a sexual encounter."

    If the law succeeds, "colleges will fill with cases in which campus boards convict young men (and, occasionally, young women) of sexual assault for genuinely ambiguous situations."

    The existence of cases "that feel genuinely unclear and maybe even unfair" are especially necessary for the law to succeed.

    "The Yes Means Yes laws creates an equilibrium where too much counts as sexual assault. Bad as it is, that's a necessary change."

    I have to agree that it is extremely confusing that someone could point out so many negatives and say... YEP!! I'm for it! Again, this is just on college campuses so it will result in tons of suspensions over assault claims that are never reported to the police, subjected to due process, but still have the ability to ruin someones life. That, in turn, will result in more human rights lawsuits.

    I feel like the kid in The Sixth Sense except I see Fascists everywhere.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Honestly? None of you opinionated women have an opinion on affirmative consent? Not consent mind you. Not discussing something new and out of the ordinary before you try it to make sure everybody is good BUT someone you have been dating for sometime still feeling the need to ask if they can kiss you, every single time they kiss you? Etc.

    Oops. Dropped my phone and it sent anyway.

    There is a rather interesting open letter floating around from a young man who tried this method and was shut down & cussed out by almost every girl he dated. That would get on my nerves. How many times do I have to keep saying it? After so many months I'd say GTFO!

    ETA: I came across a feminist blog a few months ago and this woman rambled on about possibly violating her partner of of 3 years consent because she dared to do something spontaneous in bed. This resulted in a 4 day conversation about the consent possibly being violated and all of her commenters were like... There's a pill for that! Chill out. It wasn't anything major. Simple change in positions. You're too far gone and please stop acting like someone does not have the ability to say, that's not working for me.

    *The thing that kills me is the majority of those who are for it keep saying, "but non verbal consent (that shows mutual desire) between a couple is fine. it's not in the bill". It was in the bill but they were forced to remove it. At the same time the whole purpose of the bill is anything less that a verbal yes, acquired often, is sexual assault. How does that work?Campus workshops on Affirmative Consent teach to get a clear, verbal, yes during every step of the encounter, no matter if it's the 1st or 325th time. Anything else is assault. The people holding the workshops will be those proceeding over the tribunals for those accused of assault. People also say, "those in a relationship/dealing with non verbal consent will not be reporting rape anyway". Check out Fire's website. Look at the number of college women who have sent text messages to men expressing consent and initiating hookups then they sat before a panel saying they were raped. The texts came before and after the alleged sexual assault. The male is simply suspended, with no due process, making a further mockery out of the seriousness of rape charges and false rape accusations. Even the 30 year old MSNBC twit has the nerve to say... Hey, this is a seriously f**ked up piece of legislature that over reaches, violates rights, and will harm innocent people. He still supports it, but he's not telling himself lies about it. This is the same type of dribble used by Gloria Steinem during the Satanic Panic. Your children are being molested, left and right! Take extreme measure to stop it! Of course she is standing front and center, slow clapping this.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,898Registered Users Curl Virtuoso
    @ Fifi - it's too ridiculous to really comment on IMO. But ha! Antioch was my #2 choice of schools. One extreme to the other. I might have emerged a totally different person.

  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    QFifi - it's too ridiculous to really comment on. But ha! Antioch was my #2 choice of schools. One extreme to the other. I might have emerged a totally different person.

    I do not find it too ridiculous to comment on at all. I am floored when I read about it and watch videos on it. It's easy to tell that one of the main functions of this is about changing "culture". Research shows about 3% of the college campus populace commits the majority of sexual assaults. I watched one woman say it was about changing the culture of the judicial system. How? This is only representative to college campuses and law enforcement is not involved in campus tribunals 95% of the time. The supreme court gave campuses permission to handle rape claims themselves some time ago. The majority of the tribunals are headed by women's studies professors, some other colleagues and students. You see law enforcement get involved after a student feels their rights have been violated and goes to a lawyer and then local authorities to get an investigation (so they can pull text records that may contradict claims, etc).

    Anywho, at least someone has created an App for consent. It's like a yes, no or maybe for college kids. Would you like to have sex? Answer: I am good to go! Have you had anything to drink what so ever? Answer: Yes. Conclusion... You are not good to go. If you proceed anyway... Watch out!
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Oh good. Apple shut it down. I'm not sure about others.

    https://www.yahoo.com/tech/apple-shuts-down-good2go-the-controversial-sexual-99406257444.html

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/09/29/good2go_a_new_app_for_consenting_to_sex.html

    I don't believe in using the R word but that is simply f**ktarted, in ways.

    It still screws you on a college campus. It provides documentation for those instances where someone does agree to sex while intoxicated, wakes up the next morning, and says, I really shouldn't have had that hookup. Hmm... It was rape. That goes right along with education provided on campus, but doesn't quite match the judicial system. There is a huge difference in regretting your hookup 1 day to 1 year later and rape. Just like there is a huge difference in having a few glasses of wine with dinner before sex and being unconscious/passed out/unable to consent.

    It all contradicts and falls under bedroom monitors. It's not illegal to drink when you are over 21 or have sex for that matter so why would it be completely off limits to have some spirits and sex? Now being completely incapacitated, unconscious... Very different story. Just like consenting and then regretting is a different story. People do that when sober. Look back and say... Wth was I thinking?
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Thank Gawd for Laci Green! She just helped settle all my confusion. If you have been drinking, and are considering sex you should not do it if you are above the legal BAC level that constitutes drunk driving!! So that is 0.08% if you are 21 and older, 0.01% if you are under 21 and 0.04% if you have specific classes of drivers licenses. You drive a school bus or heavy equipment. Having sex if you are above the legal driving limit = rape so you better keep that handy dandy breathalyzer app ready to go and be prepared to wait a few hours.

    ETA: Of course other factors like weight, build and tolerance can come into play. I'd love to see that conversation. You are a little on a heavy side so we may be good to go. What!!!???
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Hey...

    Making love? Stop for a minute!
    (1. Who are you and why are you interrupting? 2. Who are you and why are you specifically breaking down what people can and can not enjoy?)
    http://youtu.be/dpGn57ZkA6k

    Make sure you take note that "a consent is an active argument".

    Awww...
    http://youtu.be/NHAK1V-rMIg
    Im never gonna dance again, guilty feeling I got no rhythm (cause whoever made this ... Doesn't)

    Okay, this Consent Porn gets a bit frisky but it's really nothing more than heavy kissing and G rated compared to "F**king Consent" or "Consent is F**king Sexy" or some women dancing around to blurred lines talking about wanting to bleep your bleep, bleep your bleep, touch me and I'll break your bleeping knees... Respect each other.

    http://youtu.be/h99w08UHv60

    After these I watched "Consent is not Childs Play". I'm really not so sure.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Please don't forget to support your local consent flashmob.


    I'm a getting so disgusted with people. Consent is fantastic. Communication during sex is fantastic. Paying attention to your partners body language is fantastic, which is why one does not need to stop and ask again, and again, and again, and again, and again.... When with a partner. One also does not need to make general statements for all. It depends on the persons comfort level and relationship. If a person wants you to ask every 5 minutes, so be it. If not... Hey, that's not rape.

    *I know people keep saying... Try to remember what it was like when you were young and ignorant. I was never ignorant enough to tell people in a committed relationship that they were committing sexual assault if they did not get a clear yes during every single step of foreplay and sex, every single time.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    This one is too good to not share

    http://youtu.be/IUvaVWW2OPY

    Many colleges have been having contests on creative ways to "ask for consent". In these they often point out that if you say, "Sure or Why Not", you are probably not ready. Like you can't say sure, why not, or "You bet cha'" (for all those Fargo fans) with enthusiasm. This one is sexy dice. I say, if you need a gimmick to help ask for consent... you are not ready. That or you spend too much time talking to people on line and not using your actual voice. Dice for fun. I owe you coupons, one free... Those can all be great but gimmicks for consent is strange to me.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I mentioned this in the things that made me spit nails/rip paper thread. I absolutely adore how "No Means No" has been turned into negative burden that creates a world of fear for women

    http://dailycaller.com/2014/10/14/vox-editors-stance-on-campus-rape-deemed-illiberal-by-fellow-liberal/

    They point to Klein and the bill Yes Means Yes being dubbed illiberal by liberals themselves and his idea of Utopia that changes culture, removes No Means No which strikes fear in the hearts of women and replace it with something that strikes fear in the heart of men.

    No one should have fear in their heart

    1. Blame a rape victim in Canada in the early 90's that had the strength to report the crime against her. That's exactly what you are doing.

    I have watched parts of school lectures on Affirmative Consent and seen 70 year old professors providing misconceptions of the slogan No Means No. It's just a slogan. I have watched victims blame No Means No for their rape because they said no and it didn't work. At first I was confused by articles in the Huffington Post where someone was going on and on about young people being the ones moving this forward and those with ageism need to get over it. How about they google and find out where no means no came from so you don't look like idiots talking out your ass. One court case. One woman raped on a job interview that said no several times but her attacker was not convicted because she did not put up physical resistance. Protests, No Means No chanted in the streets, ruling overturned. What feminists did with it from that point on is all theirs. No Means No/Yes Means Yes... It's all part of the vicious cycle of Gender Feminism feeling oppressed by the own words they create and changing them every few years. Housewife, homemaker, domestic engineer, SAHM... Now that is getting too oppressive. They drive themselves crazy, year after year, never knowing where their oppression came from. It's embarrassing to watch (and I have been watching it for almost 40 years).
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    This is why feminism needs critics!!
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    http://youtu.be/V1rtQmDXfN0

    The professor addresses all the "accidental rapists". I would love to b**ch slap him.

    You can find countless videos and stories on line where simple bad decisions where consent was given has been transformed into rape and the person "a survivor". It is horribly insulting to actual victims and counter productive to collecting info and addressing the real problem.


    The only thing I can even begin to imagine this man might be addressing is premeditation. Even if the rape was not planned in advance, they are not an "accidental/unintentional" rapist. I'm quite sure the guy who raped me did not plan it in advance. I told him something he did not want to hear, he smiled, knocked me out, and proceeded. Nothing about that in accidental. Not premeditated, sure. I can agree with that but is there any reason why you can't say premeditation to a group of college students?

    Ahh! Crap. I modified when I meant to quote.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Footnote on that. One thing I try to keep in mind about 90s crime stats is you had insane amounts of drug convictions, gang violence in several states,people were still being arrested in day care scandals, and rape by your husband was put on the books. Other new laws were added as well, but there was a lot going on.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Under this logic I think every person who loses their virginity is a rape victim. I had a year long struggle of heavy petting.... And stop. This and that.... And stop! When I finally decided I was ready I was still scared to death and having a form of internal struggle due to that but I loved him, had taken my time, and knew he was the person I wanted to do that with.

    Don't get me wrong. Someone you are not dating that keeps asking needs to get a grip but this person apparently backed off numerous times, he kept hanging out with his "friend" and he made a decision to sleep with his friend. It was not the best decision but from what I heard, at no point did he feel like he could not walk away. He was given the option to consent. Does that make you part of a date/acquaintance rape victim stat? The guy I had known since high school who was my "friend" head butted me, knocked me unconscious, and raped me. GTFO

    I know the difference between a bad decison/bit of confusion/regret and rape. Do you?
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • eveumeveum Posts: 744Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I feel like this whole bill kind of perpetrates that idea talked about in the first article, that for women sex is seen as "something that simply happens to them rather than something they’re an active participant in". First up, no, I have never felt like this and nor do I know of any woman who feels this way. It's like it's reinforcing that whole stereotype that women don't like sex, so you have to absolutely MAKE SURE by asking for confirmation multiple times. I mean is it so hysterically unbelievable that a woman who is already participating in foreplay, or has unbuttoned your shirt etc WANTS it to lead to sex? And therefore does not need to sign her name on a written agreement. Communication is great, but there's much more to communication in regards to sex than just the spoken word.

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Bingo! It does nothing but contradict itself and paints mainly women in the light of not knowing their own mind, not being able to make their own decisions, reinforces negative stereotypes for both sexes and acts as if women do not already have the ability to say no if they do not want something to continue. It paints men and women as not being able to read body language. Mainly men. I have a hard time believing this will be anywhere near helpful when used as a Kangaroo Court tool on college campuses. You have to prove that someone gave enthusiastic, clear and unambiguous consent during every act of sex BUT someone can withdraw their consent at any time. That negates everything. That is not saying this does not already happen. Most men or women will back off when someone asks them to stop, they are not ready to have sex yet. Most people do look for consent thru words and actions. Most people communicate. I have no idea how you are supposed to prove consent, with out a doubt, when you can withdraw at any time.

    It gets into dangerous waters for men and women and again leaves rape claims up to people not able to properly investigate them. I understand the need for support groups on campus. I understand the need to have people on hand for those that need help but decide not to enter a court of law. It's great. I do not understand how this will do anything but create more of a hostile and confused environment on campus.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    They pretty much so rushed through legislation that puts them in the same he said/she said OR she said/he said or he/he she she said boat BUT listed it as a tool for clarification. ??? Huh

    Meanwhile it over reaches like crazy. People in a 3 year relationship meed to get unambiguous, clear, enthusiastic consent to kiss every time they kiss. That peck you gave me before you left was not enthusiastic
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,898Registered Users Curl Virtuoso
    Are there a lot of women who get raped and never say a word while the guy proceeds to rape them? They just lie there silently?

    (Are we just talking about intoxicated women?)

  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Are there a lot of women who get raped and never say a word while the guy proceeds to rape them? They just lie there silently?

    (Are we just talking about intoxicated women?)

    Nope. Not just intoxicated, though several giving affirmative consent workshops and lectures on campus tell people they they can not give consent if they have had any alcohol what so ever. That is not even remotely compatible with the law. Of course it makes perfect sense if a person is completely trashed or passed out, but it is hard to put that restriction on someone who has had 2 beers. Look, you don't know what I know. You cant have 3 puffs, pass, and give consent. You need to wait 2 hours and then decide. I can't figure out if it's the Fundamentals or Feminists coming up with this isht.

    I am sure most people object, when given the option to, and many give up or lay there in silence. Rapists are not random, accidental, bumbling idiots who do not know what no means.

    Either way, it does nothing to clarify the murky waters of rape allegations.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Like Ezra Klein said in his magnificent rant of magnificent omnipotent power... This will invite more false allegations and hurt many innocent people.

    But all for the greater good, in his opinion. #SJWFAIL
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Really. What was all that about? Fall on campuses like a cold blanket of snow. Strike fear in the hearts of men. Harm the innocent! Will have many victims...

    Wow. Just, wow.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • So_JaneSo_Jane Posts: 155Registered Users
    Are there a lot of women who get raped and never say a word while the guy proceeds to rape them? They just lie there silently?

    (Are we just talking about intoxicated women?)


    I can definitely see how it could get redundant, but I know several who were assaulted as teens -- They were not drunk AND at some point before the rape/s, all told their attacker that they didn't want to have sex, but the person either emotionally or/and physically intimidated them and took what they wanted from the victim...


    I think that it is very easy to intimidate and overwhelm teens and younger children into silence, today, nearly 1 in 5 teenagers is assaulted by someone they trusted, and for whatever reason did not report it... Fear can be very overwhelming when you are young and the fact that sexual bullying exists is a testament to the fact that somewhere along the lines we are not doing enough to make our children and adult victims feel safe enough to come forward.


    regardless of whether or not they feel comfortable to report the attack, support systems are necessary to counter the emotional toll on the person as sometimes they recoil completely or begin to engage in dangerous behavior (drugs and alcohol).-- because, like any other form of abuse, physical sexual abuse stay with you even if you have moved on and forgiven the attacker--


    And this is precisely why we should ask each other if we're sure we want to continue, if the world were a perfect place, we wouldn't need to, but craziness happens every day--- People report being raped by their spouses and significant others every day because someone did not respect the right to say 'no'...


    It's true we live in a world where we go from one extreme to the other, but we also live in a world where the ere are countries with laws that allow a woman to be killed over sex ... No, it won't solve the problem but it will have an impact over time, just as longer prison terms and the 3-stikes laws impacted certain types of other crimes-- Okay, so no, it won't matter to ever-sexual-predator out there, but it will matter to some...
    ---

    Life isn't always fair, but better safe than sorry--- Everyone has the right to not feel like having sex on any given day or altogether if that is their choice even if thy were previously intimate with that person before...


    not to get too far off, but Remember the story of the older guy who led neighbors to believe his kids were all grown and happy in their daily lives, but in reality he had his daughter tied up in the basement as a sex slave-- He denied it until the dna tests showed that her children were the children she had from her father raping her...


    And the crazy story about the woman molesting her daughter and brainwashing her into being a wiling sex-partner...


    What about the special needs 18 year old girl who was raped by the bus driver, -- She didn't want him to touch her, but he did what he wanted...



    Or when the famous old sportscaster sexually assaulted his lady of the evening--- the irony being she consented to sex, for money, but he beat scratched, bit and sodomized her without her consent...


    And the infamous William Kennedy Smith rape trial ...


    True, rape is NOT a normal behavior, but --

    We live in a world where some people see their fellow man or woman as sexual prey and while communication is important, but we have to remember that you can communicate you're not interested today or whatever all you wan , but a rapist just doesn't listen to verbal or physical cues-- And it is precisely because of these unique situations that we even need to really address these issues with stronger laws and sentences in general, but general discussions are really needed at colleges and high-schools (and prisons) where the problems seem to be most prevalent....


    Also, universities are and k12 schools are assuming responsibility for the safety of the students and staff and often adopt blanket policies to attempt to prevent the growing trend of abhorrent behaviors-- Look at the numbers of those who indicate that they were indeed assaulted at school (or by someone they trusted or even in prison) but were too afraid to come forward, the stats are overwhelming-- and I think everyone who has a child or family member away at school would agree that one victim of rape is one-too-many... And one less victim is a step forward...
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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    So_Jane wrote: »
    Are there a lot of women who get raped and never say a word while the guy proceeds to rape them? They just lie there silently?

    (Are we just talking about intoxicated women?)


    I can definitely see how it could get redundant, but I know several who were assaulted as teens -- They were not drunk AND at some point before the rape/s, all told their attacker that they didn't want to have sex, but the person either emotionally or/and physically intimidated them and took what they wanted from the victim...


    I think that it is very easy to intimidate and overwhelm teens and younger children into silence, today, nearly 1 in 5 teenagers is assaulted by someone they trusted, and for whatever reason did not report it... Fear can be very overwhelming when you are young and the fact that sexual bullying exists is a testament to the fact that somewhere along the lines we are not doing enough to make our children and adult victims feel safe enough to come forward.


    regardless of whether or not they feel comfortable to report the attack, support systems are necessary to counter the emotional toll on the person as sometimes they recoil completely or begin to engage in dangerous behavior (drugs and alcohol).-- because, like any other form of abuse, physical sexual abuse stay with you even if you have moved on and forgiven the attacker--


    And this is precisely why we should ask each other if we're sure we want to continue, if the world were a perfect place, we wouldn't need to, but craziness happens every day--- People report being raped by their spouses and significant others every day because someone did not respect the right to say 'no'...


    It's true we live in a world where we go from one extreme to the other, but we also live in a world where the ere are countries with laws that allow a woman to be killed over sex ...


    Life isn't always fair, but better safe than sorry--- Everyone has the right to not feel like having sex on any given day or altogether if that is their choice even if thy were previously intimate with that person before...


    not to get too far off, but Remember the story of the older guy who led neighbors to believe his kids were all grown and happy in their daily lives, but in reality he had his daughter tied up in the basement as a sex slave-- He denied it until the dna tests showed that her children were the children she had from her father raping her...


    And the crazy story about the woman molesting her daughter and brainwashing her into being a wiling sex-partner...


    What about the special needs 18 year old girl who was raped by the bus driver, -- She didn't want him to touch her, but he did what he wanted...


    We live in a world where some people see their fellow man or woman as sexual prey and while communication is important, but we have to remember that you can communicate you're not interested today or whatever all you wan , but a rapist just doesn't listen to verbal or physical cues-- And it is precisely because of these unique situations that we even need to really address these issues with stronger laws and sentences in general, but general discussions are really needed at colleges and high-schools (and prisons) where the problems seem to be most prevalent....

    But this won't address them. I wholeheartedly agree that someone is not going to listen to you, if they have it in their mind to go on with the attack. That is not your average bear or typical behavior.


    The huge contradiction going on here is this being presented as a tool for campuses to handle rape investigations, which they should not handle period, and it does nothing to help clarify. It waters down the seriousness of allegations and convictions. They will suspend you and maybe tarnish someones name but other than that, nothing happens. I know it is, in fact, more about forced "cultural change" at the hands of SOME in universities, but it is simple minded to generalize this widely and violate rights while you are at it.

    As for the rest, it's been covered. Most are well versed in communication, consent, and the fact that it is okay to say no. I've been raped once, and met more men who had no problems with backing off.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    The language in the bill is absolutely ridiculous and does nothing but contradict itself. It's poses the same exact problems one faces in rape case investigations and offers no real solutions to fix them. Especially for those in Kangaroo courts lacking several investigative tools.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    How does one reach every single potential rapist with the yes means yes message anyway? Everyone attends one of the schools that participates in this? No one quits high school? No one is home schooled? No one takes on line classes?

    I hate to reduce it to this but as some memes say... How's that teach people not to murder thing going for you?

    As a responsible adult, I have no problems or issues with giving people sound advice. Teaching about boundaries. Teaching about consent and communication (which I know is more awkward when you are teen). But I take great issues with mandating legal adults in relationships get clear and unambiguous consent for every kiss.

    *In a way people are acting like they just invented consent and the idea of talking to young people about boundaries and and communication. This is the norm. People learn to read body language as well, if they spend time around each other and not alone looking at a screen.

    Violent crime rates (all forms) are the lowest they have been in years. 1 in 5 is a highly elevated stat and one most people laugh at as generally faulty, unless its in this instance. On average, people are doing a good job.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    This person and Ezra have been drinking too much Dworkin kool aid

    https://witchwind.wordpress.com/2014/10/07/utopia-what-would-a-womens-society-look-like/

    The nuclear family will be abolished, in particular the parent’s property rights and absolute power over her child. Children will be considered as persons in need for autonomy and all form of punishment, authority or educational manipulation over children will equally be abolished. Raising and caring for children will be a collective responsibility for women, and motherhood / childcare and especially capacity to be empathetic towards children will be taken very seriously, as something that needs to be (re)learned and studied over years before being fully competent for this immense task.

    Schools as we know them as punitive reclusion centres for grooming into male domination and female subordination (as well as selection system for elite executors of patriarchal institutions) will be abolished. Boys would definitely not be around the girls, certainly not most of the time, and never beyond the age of puberty. And obviously no adult male would be allowed near children.

    ^ That is after she kills several men and separates the sexes. After that she goes on and on to talk about the evils of genocide and the men who do it. Sounds a lot the language in that legislation, as far as contradicting goes.

    Just to make sure you are clear:

    Sex between a man and a woman is always rape.

    http://witchwind.wordpress.com/2013/12/15/piv-is-always-rape-ok/

    This is getting old.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    In fact, that isht was old and vile when I was born in the 70s

    Doublespeak think tank of equality.

    dou·ble·think
    ˈdəbəlˌTHiNGk/
    noun
    the acceptance of or mental capacity to accept contrary opinions or beliefs at the same time, especially as a result of political indoctrination.
    Origin

    1949: coined by George Orwell in his novel Nineteen Eighty-Four .

    In other words, mental capacity lacking. Hitler is at your door

    *People refuse to listen to violently opposing. Thanks for doing quite a lot to demolish families and leave a isht storm in your wake. Thanks for leaving a generation of kids that had to listen to rants about never having children. Children ruin everything!! Thanks for leaving attack dogs who try to bring someone down when they share a story about the fall out. I hate you. I hate you. I f**king hate you with the burning of 3000 suns. Hate you.

    PS- Thanks for leaving part of another generation trapped in their own victimhood. Good job empowering women. It's funny how movements start out good, until they get hijacked.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • butter52butter52 Posts: 292Registered Users
    To me it sounds like the most idiotic way of aproaching the problem.

    So you have campuses packed with idiot kids that just got out of home and are hormoned and socially inept and have access to alcohol and pot and have no idea about healthy sexual relationships because of the insanely prudish american media and teaching system. Nothing good can come out from that.

    And the best idea you get is to pass a bill to control comunication with penalties? How on earth is that going to fix anything?

    Those kids need sex education. And they need acess to sex information in the media other than porn. And they also need some more social skills.

    And campuses should stop trying to play police and create more counseling figures that gain enough confidence for the kids to be able to report problems and get information.

    Thats what I think.

    Note: i call them kids because I had the brains of a kid with that age, and everyone around me too.
  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    butter52 wrote: »
    To me it sounds like the most idiotic way of aproaching the problem.

    So you have campuses packed with idiot kids that just got out of home and are hormoned and socially inept and have access to alcohol and pot and have no idea about healthy sexual relationships because of the insanely prudish american media and teaching system. Nothing good can come out from that.

    And the best idea you get is to pass a bill to control comunication with penalties? How on earth is that going to fix anything?

    Those kids need sex education. And they need acess to sex information in the media other than porn. And they also need some more social skills.

    And campuses should stop trying to play police and create more counseling figures that gain enough confidence for the kids to be able to report problems and get information.

    Thats what I think.

    Note: i call them kids because I had the brains of a kid with that age, and everyone around me too.

    This is what makes me cringe most of all. It's always start a panic, rush through half asa legislature. Start a panic, rush thru half ass legislature. It always causes more problems in the long run. It always ends up hindering and completely contradicting itself. Its pretty sad when you have numerous prosecutors trying to get their voices heard about problems they have seeking a conviction at this point. Not a damn given. They're making money. Ripping people off on line in the name of feminism. Trying to pull people into colleges with it. Telling everyone else what they are not allowed to say and do b/c I'm a perma victim (read damaged princess). One could never over look the good that was done but it imploded and has been useless since.


    The thing with America is, not every parent is a prude. Several do teach their kids consent. Several talk to their kids openly about sex. You are always going to have an argument about what is appropriate and at what age. It will be overwhelming opposed on the basis of religious idiots/Patrichary/rape culture... Whatever I can point my little finger at, while they simultaneously run around wanting everyone to be a puritan and only say what I want to hear. This book may upset me. I refuse to read it, but please listen to this vitriol because WOMAN. Lets make it mandatory in school. Sex is cool but only if we tell you what to say at every stage and have the right to suspend you on a whim for the greater brain washing good. Meanwhile, they are so washed that Feminist lawyers argue against free speech.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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