WWII vet, 88, brutally beaten to death in Spokane, WA

asugirl

WWII vet, 88, brutally beaten to death in Spokane, Wash. - U.S. News

We're in a world of hurt.

This is very similar to the OK baseball player killing.

The New Black

Dammit, and the suspects are Black too. I was hoping they weren't.

claudine191

The world scares me now.

I don't know what to think about people — of any color.

asugirl

This is a trend that doesn't surprise me but makes me sad. I feel that these are kids are looking at what happened to Trayvon, and countless other kids like him, and thinking if he can be so easily 'taken out', why shouldn't they do the same? In this case, and the OK case, the victim happened to be white. It may not be the overriding factor, but it also may be. Killing is abhorrent, regardless, but I sadly expected some of this result.

yossarian

asugirl wrote: »

This is a trend that doesn't surprise me but makes me sad. I feel that these are kids are looking at what happened to Trayvon, and countless other kids like him, and thinking if he can be so easily 'taken out', why shouldn't they do the same? In this case, and the OK case, the victim happened to be white. It may not be the overriding factor, but it also may be. Killing is abhorrent, regardless, but I sadly expected some of this result.

TBH, I don't think this had anything to do with Trayvon's murder/Zimmerman's acquittal. Decent, civilized people don't savagely beat elderly people to death, or randomly shoot a passing jogger in the back for kicks. period. Skin color is NEVER an excuse for one's actions.

I am no less enraged when a black person kills a white person without cause as I am when a white person kills a black person.

ETA: It can also be argued that thugs like this (as well as the ones in Oklahoma) cost Trayvon his life, because the image of "criminal black male" associated with their type was projected onto him. You can bet that the right-wing airwaves will be full of people smugly saying, "You see that? How can you blame Zimmerman for fearing for his life?"

The innocent always pay for the deeds of the guilty.

asugirl

I am not saying it is a direct response to Trayvon's killing, but that it is a cumulative feeling and response to what they see. As I said above, it is completely abhorrent behavior. But we have to look at the combination of accessibility of guns and generations of racism - plus other factors - and what the results may be.

ETA: As a white woman, I of course cannot directly relate. But as a spouse of a black man for over 30 years, and a mother of a mixed teenager, I feel in many ways that I am 'honorary'. I have experienced a lot of things that most white folks do not, and I feel like I have a certain perspective.

yossarian

asugirl wrote: »

ETA: As a white woman, I of course cannot directly relate. But as a spouse of a black man for over 30 years, and a mother of a mixed teenager, I feel in many ways that I am 'honorary'. I have experienced a lot of things that most white folks do not, and I feel like I have a certain perspective.

Yes, that's definitely true - you have direct personal knowledge of this issue, and it has special relevance for you and your child.

My sister-in-law is from Ghana, and my nephew is bi-racial, so I can relate somewhat. He's only 7, so he hasn't yet had to face the stereotyping of young black males, but he's keenly aware of his identity and how others perceive it, especially when he's with his father in public.

OAN: it turns out that the boys who killed the Australian in Oklahoma were NOT all black, as had been reported. One is white, and one is half-white. Not that it makes the murder any less reprehensible, but at least it was not racially motivated.

The New Black

^^^I don't think the one kid is white. I think he's biracial too. Not that it makes it any less awful like you said...

But it still could've been racially motivated, depending on which race the kids identify with.

asugirl

I did notice the mix of the teens in OK. The driver was identified as white but he looks mixed to me. I think I read that the shooter was black and had made previous statements to friends that were negative in nature about whites. The other kid is mixed, but as you know how this country views it: he's black. I have a girl - which presents other worries and fears for me. She actually has very little problem with anyone - great friends and great in school. I always worry about that one unbalanced person who could change everything.

ETA it shows my age that I used the term mixed and not biracial. ;-)

claudine191

"The innocent always pay for the deeds of the guilty." Yossarian.

Too, too true.

yossarian

asugirl wrote: »

I did notice the mix of the teens in OK. The driver was identified as white but he looks mixed to me. I think I read that the shooter was black and had made previous statements to friends that were negative in nature about whites. The other kid is mixed, but as you know how this country views it: he's black. I have a girl - which presents other worries and fears for me. She actually has very little problem with anyone - great friends and great in school. I always worry about that one unbalanced person who could change everything.

And the one readily available gun that could enable that unbalanced person to do it ... {{shudder}}

Awesome to hear that your daughter is so well-adjusted, popular and happy. Childhood can be tough even without racial and ethnic issues involved, and we all know how mean girls can be! Present company excluded, of course

As far as the OK shooting, the question of the killers' identities just goes to show how arbitrary these label are. What people really mean is color, which can vary widely across generations and within families.

These are their mugshots, so everyone can see what we're talking about:

asugirl

Thank you - I've always felt very hopeful that things would/should go well. I live in AZ (grew up here) and I know most of the country thinks this is a redneck state. Believe me, the politicians do not represent the makeup of AZ. There are conservatives, don't get me wrong, but there are also many, many liberals/progressives. My mixed marriage has garnered very little negative attention over past thirty three years. We experienced worse when visiting my husband's hometown of NYC.

Of course, my girl is a teenager and there is always stuff to go through, but I think she handles it well. And yes, concern about the gun culture, which is rampant in AZ, does stay on my mind.

Winta

I don't want to look at this as a race issue. People need to get on their kids and stop letting them get away with crap or this type of stuff happens. What would make you go after such an old person. You don't look tough, you look pathetic. Both killings are power based, neither victim had a chance. Sad and disgusting.

asugirl

Winta wrote: »

I don't want to look at this as a race issue. People need to get on their kids and stop letting them get away with crap or this type of stuff happens. What would make you go after such an old person. You don't look tough, you look pathetic. Both killings are power based, neither victim had a chance. Sad and disgusting.

Agree about the power component. I would suggest that there are probably many layers to this problem.

munchkin

The media doesn't seem to be making these stories as big or seem to be as outraged as they were over the Trayvon Martin case. . . why?

The New Black

Which "stories" are you referring to, Munchkin?

yossarian

munchkin wrote: »

The media doesn't seem to be making these stories as big or seem to be as outraged as they were over the Trayvon Martin case. . . why?

Probably because the killers were immediately arrested and charged, whereas Zimmerman was allowed to go free after shooting Martin, and was only arrested and (weakly) prosecuted AFTER public outrage forced the Florida governor to do so.And I'd be willing to bet none of these murderers are acquitted, in contrast to the Zimmerman case.

Simply put, it's the sense that justice was not served vis-a-vis Trayvon, whereas it will be for these victims.

asugirl

yossarian wrote: »

munchkin wrote: »

The media doesn't seem to be making these stories as big or seem to be as outraged as they were over the Trayvon Martin case. . . why?

Probably because the killers were immediately arrested and charged, whereas Zimmerman was allowed to go free after shooting Martin, and was only arrested and (weakly) prosecuted AFTER public outrage forced the Florida governor to do so.And I'd be willing to bet none of these murderers are acquitted, in contrast to the Zimmerman case.

Simply put, it's the sense that justice was not served vis-a-vis Trayvon, whereas it will be for these victims.

Yep, that's a big part of it. Many people had predicted, as what usually happens, that if Zimmerman had been black he would have been arrested quickly. These cases help to justify that thinking.

Fifi.G

claudine191 wrote: »

The world scares me now.

I don't know what to think about people — of any color.

It does seem insane, doesn't it. I am always asking, "what is wrong with people?" Especially with my job :-/ In ways I think it has gotten much worse, and I feel like the world is working in reverse as opposed to going forward. BUT, at times, I also think... It's always been crazy. There is just a large population right now so it seems worse. Perhaps I'm just trying to comfort myself. I do know that people go off easier now. I think so many things in the day to day are so readily available, accessible, do not require much thought, are so easy that people are pushed over the edge quicker. You do see horrible over reactions to simple things that most would 't have thought twice about 15 years ago.

All that aside, is a a sad and horrible story.

multicultcurly

I think these kids picked an elderly man because he was physically weaker than them. Classic bully story. I wouldn't be surprised if these kids didn't have any positive role models in their lives. To beat someone to death, you have to have a lot of anger inside of you. At 16, the only people you would have that much anger at is your parents or guardians.

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Lotsawaves

Yes, that was my 1st thought. To have beaten him so badly made me feel that they had a lot of anger inside them.

Lovemenappy

yossarian wrote: »

asugirl wrote: »

This is a trend that doesn't surprise me but makes me sad. I feel that these are kids are looking at what happened to Trayvon, and countless other kids like him, and thinking if he can be so easily 'taken out', why shouldn't they do the same? In this case, and the OK case, the victim happened to be white. It may not be the overriding factor, but it also may be. Killing is abhorrent, regardless, but I sadly expected some of this result.

TBH, I don't think this had anything to do with Trayvon's murder/Zimmerman's acquittal. Decent, civilized people don't savagely beat elderly people to death, or randomly shoot a passing jogger in the back for kicks. period. Skin color is NEVER an excuse for one's actions.

I am no less enraged when a black person kills a white person without cause as I am when a white person kills a black person.

ETA: It can also be argued that thugs like this (as well as the ones in Oklahoma) cost Trayvon his life, because the image of "criminal black male" associated with their type was projected onto him. You can bet that the right-wing airwaves will be full of people smugly saying, "You see that? How can you blame Zimmerman for fearing for his life?"

The innocent always pay for the deeds of the guilty.

It makes no more since for Trayvon to be judged as a thug based on the actions of these thugs (that just so happen to be black) than it would make for me to assume every white teenager was interested in mass murder because of the Columbine shooting. ...or every Hispanic person was an illegal immigrant.

That type of thinking is what causes racial profiling and is ironically exactly what cost Trayvon his life.

BlackAngelPlayah

Two words.

Ass whoopins...,

It was working for us. Why did we stop?

multicultcurly

I have a feeling that none of these parents were truly offering the guidance they should have to these kids. They also didn't discipline. I don't believe spanking is the only way to discipline, but holding your kids accountable for their actions is discipline.

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BlackAngelPlayah

Spanking isn't the ONLY way, but back in my day it worked! Sure you would hear about the odd fruit cake that still was gonna do it anyway no matter what you did. And you also had parents who didn't spank- the BEAT the kids mercilessly. Which was just wrong.

If parents can come up with a way to steer their kids the right way other than spanking I'm all for it. But whatever they did didn't work at ALL. Perhaps they did NOTHING. I see a lot if that these days.

I see parents in stores and Doctor's offices all the time. Kid all over the place bothering the CRAP out of everyone. And their mom is at her wits end "Jacob, put that down. Put it down, Jacob. Jacob. Put it down Jacob. "

MY mom would say it once. If I didn't she'd hit me. (Not DESTROY me or punch me. Just a lick. No lethal force used.)

And guess what? I would put it down. Sit down. And be quiet until we left.

Now when I got older, she did all the talking and grounding and teaching the finer points of not being a jerk. But only after she had laid that foundation.

Now parents act like they are afraid of their kids.

yossarian

BlackAngelPlayah wrote: »

Two words.

Ass whoopins...,

It was working for us. Why did we stop?

Because now someone (neighbor, teacher, stranger in the store) is calling the cops if you use a stern tone with your kids, let alone give them a warning tap for misbehaving.

(Corporal punishment is not cruel & unusual punishment, according to the Supreme Court, but schools rarely use it because they're afraid of a lawsuit.)

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