CurlTalk

Could I need MORE protein?

We have been having 65-75 degree dews for the last several weeks, with the past week being consistently 70+. I feel like my hair doesn't really like leave in products/stylers with protein, but it seems to love my PT followed by overnight DT mixed with coconut oil. I haven't tracked it yet, but it seems as if I have my best hair days with the least frizz just following a PT and as the week goes on, my hair just gets more and more frizzy, even with the same methods. So could it just be that my hair wants more protein? Given that my hair doesn't seem to like LI and stylers with protein, I am thinking that maybe I need to find a RO with more protein? Here's what I'm using when I wash n style:

Cowash Deva Care, RO - SM cocnut and hibiscus, LI – KCKT+SM cocnut and hibiscus, SM curl milk with a bit of Giovanni LA Naturals Firm Hold Gel just on my upper canopy for frizz control.

I have had some really good results with this combo, including one day when I spent hours in 70+ dews outdoors with no frizz. But like I said, as I get further away from PT/DT, the frizz just gets crazy! I can't really PT/DT more than once per week, it just takes way too much time. But I thought that it wouldn't be too difficult to do a quick PT in the shower if I could find something I liked and didn't need to prepare in advance. What about either more protein in my cowash or RO? I'm open to any and all suggestions for dealing with this frizz!
Type 2B - 3A
Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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Comments

  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    Hey there! I use and like the SM Coconut/Hibiscus line, BUT it doesn't have hydrolized protein in it. (It basically means that the silk protein in the SM line is not as effective).

    From what you describe, yes your hair probably needs more protein and you should probably add in at least an RO w/ hydrolized protein in order to maintain your protein levels in between PTs. Hope this helps!

    EDIT: you can also get Colorful Neutral Protein Filler from Sally's and add a few drops to the SM conditioners you already have.
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    If you are following the protein treatment with coconut oil how do you know it is the protein that is giving you the positive results? It could easily be either or the combination. Protein will take time to penetrate rather than simply adhering to the surface, you likely won't get much if any penetration over the duration of your shower.

    Have you tried cutting back on the shea butter? That can build up which may cause frizz. Also are you using enough true conditioning agents/ emollients? Cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols help with clumping and frizz control, KCKT contains almost none of these, is there plenty in your Shea Moisture?
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • HootenannyHootenanny Posts: 300Registered Users
    Just want to say that I agree with Wavydaze that Colorful Neutral Protein Filler is a great way to add a shot of protein to your hair quite easily. If I were you, I'd add a few drops to the SM leave-in and see how that goes for you! :)
    :cat: Medium/coarse, low porosity, dense, mix of 3s :cat:
    CG (again) since Nov. 2012

    Cleanse: SM Moisture Retention, Elucence MBC, KC Come Clean
    Condish: Giovanni DL, Cure Care, Ion Treatment, GVP Balm, AOHR
    Protein: AOGPB, CNPF, SSRPT
    Stylers: KCCC, SM Souffle, AOMM, SS CEJ, JCRR, JCCC

    :cat: Trying out steaming! :cat:
  • SamanthascurlzSamanthascurlz Posts: 1,082Registered Users
    For a protein treatment, I really like IAGirl's! :)
    CG, High Porosity, Fine, Low Density, Medium Elasticity
    Suave, V05, GF Go clean gel, ACV rinses, CO, and Gelatine PT.
    [URL="[url=http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/members/samanthascurlz-albums-evolvement-my-hair.html]Curls[/url]"][/url]Curls
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    For a protein treatment, I really like IAGirl's! :)

    That is what I am using, but I don't do it with heat, I do the lazy application and just put it in during the shower.
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    If you are following the protein treatment with coconut oil how do you know it is the protein that is giving you the positive results? It could easily be either or the combination. Protein will take time to penetrate rather than simply adhering to the surface, you likely won't get much if any penetration over the duration of your shower.

    Have you tried cutting back on the shea butter? That can build up which may cause frizz. Also are you using enough true conditioning agents/ emollients? Cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols help with clumping and frizz control, KCKT contains almost none of these, is there plenty in your Shea Moisture?

    You are right, I really don't know which is giving me the results, the PT or the DT. I use IAGirls PT with the lazy application and just rinse out following shaving, but I don't wash it out. I'm pretty sure that my DT contains some really good cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols, but I have to double check the SM line, it is pretty heavy on the oils and shea which if I remember correctly do not fall in those categories. I definitely have some research to do!
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    wavydaze wrote: »
    Hey there! I use and like the SM Coconut/Hibiscus line, BUT it doesn't have hydrolized protein in it. (It basically means that the silk protein in the SM line is not as effective).

    From what you describe, yes your hair probably needs more protein and you should probably add in at least an RO w/ hydrolized protein in order to maintain your protein levels in between PTs. Hope this helps!

    EDIT: you can also get Colorful Neutral Protein Filler from Sally's and add a few drops to the SM conditioners you already have.

    I will have to seing by sally's and see if this helps. This way I can check out additional protein with my existing routine without committing to a full bottle of something new!
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    You are right, I really don't know which is giving me the results, the PT or the DT. I use IAGirls PT with the lazy application and just rinse out following shaving, but I don't wash it out. I'm pretty sure that my DT contains some really good cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols, but I have to double check the SM line, it is pretty heavy on the oils and shea which if I remember correctly do not fall in those categories. I definitely have some research to do!

    In that case my gut instinct would be that the coconut oil rather than the protein is making the main difference, since you are leaving that in long enough to penetrate. You can also do hydrolysed protein treatments overnight instead of using heat if that suits time wise.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    You are right, I really don't know which is giving me the results, the PT or the DT. I use IAGirls PT with the lazy application and just rinse out following shaving, but I don't wash it out. I'm pretty sure that my DT contains some really good cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols, but I have to double check the SM line, it is pretty heavy on the oils and shea which if I remember correctly do not fall in those categories. I definitely have some research to do!

    In that case my gut instinct would be that the coconut oil rather than the protein is making the main difference, since you are leaving that in long enough to penetrate. You can also do hydrolysed protein treatments overnight instead of using heat if that suits time wise.

    I don't think that this is necessarily true. I've done IAgirl's PT and left it on for only 5 minutes to very good results. We've had this discussion before. You pointed out that according to Natural Haven, there is aDsorption and not as much if any absorption in a PT that isn't left on very long. This may be true, but the aDsorption may still be helping her, as it helps me as well and others.

    When I do coconut DTs on the other hand, the effect lasts for a long time, as it should because according to multiple posts you've written, it can really penetrate the shaft which makes it such a wonderful ingredient. It makes more sense to me that her hair is getting frizzy in between PTs and not coconut oil DTs. It is much easier to lose protein (especially aDsorbed protein) than it is to lose the effects of coconut oil. The effects of a coconut oil DT should definitely last longer than 5 days. Proteins on the other hand can wash out with each cleansing session.

    With that in mind alslgirl, I would also try doing the heated version of the gelatin PT, keep it in for longer so it can properly aBsorb, see if that helps.

    If you get the Colorful Neutral Protein Filler and put it in a leave-in as well that should help as it will definitely have time to absorb.

    I do agree with you, Firefox, that she may be better off backing off the shea butter. My RO is very different from my SM LI; that's probably why the combination works me. I get moisture from my RO and seal it with my shea-buttery LI, and that works for me in high-dews (conditioner-only styling).
    As it stands alslgirl, your hair's diet may not be varied enough. Hope this helps! :)
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    On the shea butter topic, I did consider that the last two times I washed. I could feel a little stiffness in some parts of my hair which tells me that there was some build up. Obviously I can fix that with a low-poo, but I suppose I could also start reducing it in my routine so.... apparently I need to do some shopping! Ahhh yes, I have been waiting for this!

    I have been ogling the Spiral Solutions Repairing PT, but have not wanted to go overboard on protein until I was more confident that my hair was craving it. I like this product because not only does it have a bunch of hydrolized proteins, but it also has a good amount of cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols so I can get a nice DT along with a good shot of protein at the same time. Thoughts on this?

    I also need a tub of my regular DT so combined, I should need to purchase one more product to hit the magical $50 for free shipping. How should I spend the rest of my $10 at curlmart? I think I should start with a new RO since I am 100% sure that my great hair is coming from the SM condish mixed with KCKT. I also won't feel so bad getting a new RO since I will still use the SM RO as a LI. Thoughts on a new RO? This will be one step forward in reducing the shea in my routine.
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    wavydaze wrote: »

    "In that case my gut instinct would be that the coconut oil rather than the protein is making the main difference, since you are leaving that in long enough to penetrate. You can also do hydrolysed protein treatments overnight instead of using heat if that suits time wise."

    I don't think that this is necessarily true. I've done IAgirl's PT and left it on for only 5 minutes to very good results. We've had this discussion before. You pointed out that according to Natural Haven, there is aDsorption and not as much if any absorption in a PT that isn't left on very long. This may be true, but the aDsorption may still be helping her, as it helps me as well and others.

    When I do coconut DTs on the other hand, the effect lasts for a long time, as it should because according to multiple posts you've written, it can really penetrate the shaft which makes it such a wonderful ingredient. It makes more sense to me that her hair is getting frizzy in between PTs and not coconut oil DTs. It is much easier to lose protein (especially aDsorbed protein) than it is to lose the effects of coconut oil. The effects of a coconut oil DT should definitely last longer than 5 days. Proteins on the other hand can wash out with each cleansing session.

    No we have not "discussed this", you haven't read my comments properly and then disputed, in fact much of what you have said here agrees with my previous posts on the topic!

    I have clearly stated the protein is unlikely to penetrate or aBsorb into the cortex, to me that makes it not acting as a deep treatment. That is my gut instinct or semi educated opinion based on the studies using much longer time scales and knowing that diffusion is a slow process and even temporary bonding is not instantaneous.

    I have never suggested there are no benefits to or no results from from using hydrolysed protein as a superficial agent, indeed I use it myself in both my leave in conditioners. As you acknowledge at best that is protein aDsorbing or acting as a film former, not proof that it has penetrated.

    As I understand it, if very short processing times are using the protein will simply lay on to the surface, not bond to the hair and wash away easily at the next wash. The deep treatment can very easily shift protein that is not bonded to the hair, yet it seems to be after both the protein and the oil treatment that the OP reports the improvements.

    If longer processing times are used or some heat or the product is allowed to dry hydrolysed protein can form temporary bonds that will endure through a number of washes, if even longer processing times are used hydrolysed protein can slowly diffuses right into the cortex. Much of this is dependent on the damage to and porosity of the hair, the level of aDsorption and aBsorption won't be the same for all.

    A modest amount of protein used at each of a number of successive washes can accumulate to give progressively 'better' results, but again this is not what the OP is doing. Some of the benefits of coconut oil can also last one or two washes, any remaining fatty acids which are coating the surface and encouraging capillary adhesion or clumping or frizz reduction.

    HTH.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    Friefox and Wavydaze - BOTH your comments have helped me tremedously, even if the two of you are coming from different angles ;-)

    It is clear to me that I need to continue with the coconut oil DT, but add in a protein laden DT, and cut down on the shea. Since I DT every or so days, this shouldn't be a problem. I also just bought a hot bonnet, so I am going to be able to add heat to my DT routine. All I need now is a new RO.
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    How about CJ Beauticurls? I little pricey, but the ingredients look nice - I like that it also has panthenol, something I'd like to add to my routine.

    Water, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera) Leaf Juice, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Esters, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Virgin Coconut) Oil, Panthenol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Yucca Leaf Extract, Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Leaf Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Piperita (Peppermint) Leaf Extract, Melissa Officinalis (Melissa) Leaf Extract, Propylene Glycol, Iodopropylnyl Butylcarbamate, Fragrance, Citric Acid.
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    I have been ogling the Spiral Solutions Repairing PT, but have not wanted to go overboard on protein until I was more confident that my hair was craving it. I like this product because not only does it have a bunch of hydrolized proteins, but it also has a good amount of cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols so I can get a nice DT along with a good shot of protein at the same time. Thoughts on this?

    I really like the SS PT. You'll probably need some moisture afterward but it can come from an RO. I know some people always DT after a PT but it really depends on your hair. I never do.
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    How about CJ Beauticurls? I little pricey, but the ingredients look nice - I like that it also has panthenol, something I'd like to add to my routine.

    Water, Aloe Barbadensis (Aloe Vera) Leaf Juice, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Cetyl Esters, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Argania Spinosa (Argan) Oil, Cocos Nucifera (Virgin Coconut) Oil, Panthenol, Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine, Yucca Leaf Extract, Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Leaf Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Piperita (Peppermint) Leaf Extract, Melissa Officinalis (Melissa) Leaf Extract, Propylene Glycol, Iodopropylnyl Butylcarbamate, Fragrance, Citric Acid.

    I would recommend getting an RO with more protein.

    If you're interested in CJ there is:

    Repair Me:

    Ingredients: Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Hydrolyzed Keratin Protein, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Panthenol, Keratin Amino Acids, Hydrolyzed Yeast, Glyceryl Stearate, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Glycol Stearate, Prunus Armeniaca (Apricot) Kernel Oil, Cetyl Alcohol, PEG-100 Stearate, Tocopherol Acetate, Citric Acid, Disodium EDTA, Fragrance, Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate.

    ^This is more of a PT, but I hear it is moisturizing as well. My protein-lovin hair could probably easily nom this as an RO (obviously you'd need to leave it on for longer for full effects, but even 5 min in the shower while you shave etc helps)

    There is the CJ Strengthening Conditioner:

    Ingredients: Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Methosulfate, Vegetable Glycerin, Simmondsia Chinensis (Jojoba) Seed Oil, Olea Europaea (Olive) Fruit Oil, Panthenol, Cucurbita Pepo (Pumpkin Seed) Oil, Melissa Officinalis (Melissa) Leaf Extract, Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Piperita (Peppermint) Leaf Extract, Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Leaf Extract, Yucca Leaf Extract, Keratin Amino Acids, Polyquaternium-7, Lecithin, Fragrance, Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol.

    ^Although I feel that the Keratin Amino Acids are way too far down on the list (and possibly too small) to really make this a difference....


    The SS Caitlin's Conditioner is nice:

    Ingredients: distilled water, behentrimonium methosulfate (and) cetearyl alcohol, babassu oil, vegetable glycerine, meadowfoam seed oil, stearyl alcohol, avocado oil, hydrolyzed oat protein, hydrolyzed jojoba protein, hydrolyzed silk, panthenol, glyceryl stearate, phenoxyethanol (and) caprylyl glycol (and) sorbic acid, aloe vera powder, essential oil blend, guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, tocopherol, citric acid


    If I were you I'd go for the Caitlin's or CJ Repair Me. I know CJ has a following but honestly I think the products are crazy expensive and I haven't been impressed by the few products I've tried. That's just my opinion.

    There's also other much cheaper brands that have protein rich conditioners: Mill Creek (Keratin, Biotin), Nature's Gate Biotin (Others have protein as well), EO Keratin
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    *Sorry meant to add that the CJ Repair Me does look good!
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    Completely agree with WavyDaze, much prefer the look of the Spiral Solutions repairing treatment or CJ Repair Me to the CJ Beauticurls. I am very wary of waxy cetyl esters since a bad experience with the new formula Fructis Triple Nutrition. CJ Strengthening looks pricey for the ingredients.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • CurlyGrey3CurlyGrey3 Posts: 508Registered Users
    I've been following this thread because I'm having similar issues and I think my hair properties are close to the OP.

    Firefox - your explanation matches my experience. My hair was curlier and less flyaway after I did the gelatin PT, but it didn't last. I feel like I need to do another one after only a couple of washes.

    I guess the right thing to do it use smaller amounts of protein in more products and/or do longer treatments with protein or coconut oil. I might have to try overnight coconut oil again, but with much less oil next time.

    What problem did you have with cetyl esters? Is that the same as emollient esters? If so, Tonya McKay mentions them as a potentially problematic occlusive agent in this article:

    Hair Moisturizer vs. Emollients
    Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
    Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
    Current favorites:
    Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
    Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
    Style: FSG, BRHG
    Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

    iHerb discount code: PNQ285
  • CurlyGrey3CurlyGrey3 Posts: 508Registered Users
    Are you recommending the Caitllin's or the SS Repairing? The SS Repairing ingredients are:

    Distilled Water, Hydrolyzed Keratin, Oryza Sativa (Rice) Bran Oil, Stearyl Alcohol, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein (and) Hydrolyzed Wheat Starch, Cocodimonium Hydroxypropyl Hydrolyzed Rice Protein, Hydrolyzed Oats, Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Glycol Stearate, Cetyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Hydrolyzed Jojoba Protein, Panthenol, Keratin Amino Acids, Sodium PCA, Caprylic/Capric Triglycerides (and) Achillea Millefolium (Yarrow) leaf Extract (and) Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract (and) Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Extract (and) Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Arctium Lappa (Burdock) Root Extract, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Extract, Olea europaea (Olive) Leaf Extract, Phenoxyethanol (and) Benzoic Acid (and) Dehydroacetic Acid, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Fragrance, Citric Acid.
    Salt & pepper wavy mix 2B/2C
    Low to normal porosity, coarse, kinky, normal elasticity
    Current favorites:
    Low poo: Yes To Cukes Color Protection (the no sulfate one)
    Conditioners: Renpure MPHIP, CJ Smoothing Lotion, AB LI, CJ Curl Rehab, CJ Argan/Olive, Darcy's Pumpkin
    Style: FSG, BRHG
    Pre-poo/DT: Conditioner with honey & coconut oil

    iHerb discount code: PNQ285
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    CurlyGrey3 wrote: »
    I've been following this thread because I'm having similar issues and I think my hair properties are close to the OP.

    Firefox - your explanation matches my experience. My hair was curlier and less flyaway after I did the gelatin PT, but it didn't last. I feel like I need to do another one after only a couple of washes.

    I guess the right thing to do it use smaller amounts of protein in more products and/or do longer treatments with protein or coconut oil. I might have to try overnight coconut oil again, but with much less oil next time.

    What problem did you have with cetyl esters? Is that the same as emollient esters? If so, Tonya McKay mentions them as a potentially problematic occlusive agent in this article:

    Hair Moisturizer vs. Emollients

    Cetyl esters are indeed an emollient ester.
    Cetyl Esters-Conditioners, Thickeners, & Structural Agents-Home-Blending Nature and Science - Innovative Natural...

    My curls were poorly defined, weighed down and totally limp IIRC. Initially I thought I was overconditioned which seemed strange given I have damaged porous hair, then read the conditioner ingredients and found amodimethicone and cetyl esters. Shampoo'd with cocoamidopropyl betaine and hardcore protein treat which my hair HATED, but it's worked out for the best, I've learned my hair likes proteins in an emollient/ conditioner base much more than the hard drying type treatment.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    CurlyGrey3 wrote: »
    Are you recommending the Caitllin's or the SS Repairing? The SS Repairing ingredients are:

    Distilled Water, Hydrolyzed Keratin, Oryza Sativa (Rice) Bran Oil, Stearyl Alcohol, Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein (and) Hydrolyzed Wheat Starch, Cocodimonium Hydroxypropyl Hydrolyzed Rice Protein, Hydrolyzed Oats, Glyceryl Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, Glycol Stearate, Cetyl Alcohol, Behentrimonium Chloride, Hydrolyzed Jojoba Protein, Panthenol, Keratin Amino Acids, Sodium PCA, Caprylic/Capric Triglycerides (and) Achillea Millefolium (Yarrow) leaf Extract (and) Salvia Officinalis (Sage) Leaf Extract (and) Equisetum Arvense (Horsetail) Extract (and) Urtica Dioica (Nettle) Leaf Extract, Lavandula Angustifolia (Lavender) Flower Extract, Arctium Lappa (Burdock) Root Extract, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Extract, Olea europaea (Olive) Leaf Extract, Phenoxyethanol (and) Benzoic Acid (and) Dehydroacetic Acid, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Fragrance, Citric Acid.

    I don't know who this question is being addressed to but I'll put in my 2 cents!

    The Repairing Treatment is more like a PT... has protein higher up on the list. The Caitlin's Conditioner has protein, but a little further down on the list. You can use it as an RO, or even LI.... I believe Chupie just did her vlog on conditioner-only styling with Caitlin's Condish.

    Of course you can use a PT as an RO. I've seen some coarser-haired curlies use ROs with protein in them as their PT (so a condish with less protein than either SS Repairing treatment or CJ Repair Me). They could use Caitlin's condish for instance as a PT. For my hair I need something more protein-rich for a PT.

    It's not like there's a set this is DEFINITELY a PT or DEFINITELY an RO. You can use them interchangeably to a certain extent depending on what your hair needs. You have to scrutinize the ingredients for the protein and what form (hydrolized or non, amino acids) and in what concentration it is found in the conditioner. I'm sure other ingredients in the formulation will also contribute to how well the protein binds (or doesn't bind) to your hair.

    Like in everything else, labels may not mean much. A lot of conditioners may say "strengthening" on them (CJ Beauticurls Strengthening a prime example) even when the protein in them isn't very much at all. For me, this conditioner would provide moisture but not much in terms of protein.

    Another example. Shescentit Okra Reconstructor:

    Aqua (water), aloe barbadensis (aloe vera) leaf juice, cetearyl alcohol, Okra extract, behentrimonium methosulfate, panthenol, hydrolyzed Keratin, hydrolyzed soy protein, Wheat amino acids, hemp seed oil, wheat Germ oil, Calendula, Sunflower extract, Sea Kelp extract, marshmallow, glycerin, rice protein, fragrance, Optiphen, Xanthan gum, citric acid.

    ^The website says to use it as a PT. I used it as a leave-in. No crunchies, no problem. As you can see it does have hydrolyzed keratin in it and I'm sure you can use it as a PT, but the keratin is the 7th ingredient so it's definitely not the strongest PT.


    As a word of caution, there are very hardcore PTs out there like Aphogee 2 step, which should only be used as directed.

    Deionized Water, Hydrolyzed Animal Protein, Magnesium Sulfate, Citric Acid, Ethylene Urea, Dimethylol Urea, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Magnesium Carbonate, DMDM Hydantoin, Fragrance

    ^As you can see, hydrolized "animal" protein is the second ingredient.
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    Wavy daze- how much of that protein filler should I use in my DT ?
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    Wavy daze- how much of that protein filler should I use in my DT ?

    In your DT? You mean the coconut oil?

    Sorry about my confusion... I guess on nc.com DT usually refers to moisture/conditioning and/or oil treatment while PT refers to protein treatment... but I know on Long Hair Community they use slightly different terminology.

    PTs can indeed have some oils/conditioners but their main function is to add protein to your hair where it is lacking, hence PT. I suppose DTs in nc terminology can have some protein as well, never really thought about it. I've only done pure EVCO DTs.
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    wavydaze wrote: »
    Wavy daze- how much of that protein filler should I use in my DT ?

    In your DT? You mean the coconut oil?

    Sorry about my confusion... I guess on nc.com DT usually refers to moisture/conditioning and/or oil treatment while PT refers to protein treatment... but I know on Long Hair Community they use slightly different terminology.

    PTs can indeed have some oils/conditioners but their main function is to add protein to your hair where it is lacking, hence PT. I suppose DTs in nc terminology can have some protein as well, never really thought about it. I've only done pure EVCO DTs.

    I actually mix my DT with equal parts coconut oil and thought I could easily add some of that protein to it
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    I actually mix my DT with equal parts coconut oil and thought I could easily add some of that protein to it

    You can add some protein to the DT. I would maybe recommend keeping your PTs and DTs separate, at least for now until you're learning what benefits your hair and what your hair can tolerate.

    Otherwise if you put protein in your DTs and lots of oils/conditioner in your PTs then they're not "true" DTs or PTs and you won't know what is really doing what, if that makes sense. It's helpful to have a different focus/concept for DT and PT, at least at first.
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    wavydaze wrote: »
    I actually mix my DT with equal parts coconut oil and thought I could easily add some of that protein to it

    You can add some protein to the DT. I would maybe recommend keeping your PTs and DTs separate, at least for now uI figurentil you're learning what benefits your hair and what your hair can tolerate.

    Otherwise if you put protein in your DTs and lots of oils/conditioner in your PTs then they're not "true" DTs or PTs and you won't know what is really doing what, if that makes sense. It's helpful to have a different focus/concept for DT and PT, at least at first.

    I figure that once I get the SS PT that I will do that once weekly and a separate DT once weekly. Really probably every 5ish days or whatever works with my hair/work/workout schedule. This is just a quick fix until I get my new products in the mail. I got the trial size bottle which is about 1oz and I used maybe a quarter of it I'm my DT. I'll update with results tomorrow!
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • wavydazewavydaze Posts: 2,061Registered Users
    wavydaze wrote: »
    I actually mix my DT with equal parts coconut oil and thought I could easily add some of that protein to it

    You can add some protein to the DT. I would maybe recommend keeping your PTs and DTs separate, at least for now uI figurentil you're learning what benefits your hair and what your hair can tolerate.

    Otherwise if you put protein in your DTs and lots of oils/conditioner in your PTs then they're not "true" DTs or PTs and you won't know what is really doing what, if that makes sense. It's helpful to have a different focus/concept for DT and PT, at least at first.

    I figure that once I get the SS PT that I will do that once weekly and a separate DT once weekly. Really probably every 5ish days or whatever works with my hair/work/workout schedule. This is just a quick fix until I get my new products in the mail. I got the trial size bottle which is about 1oz and I used maybe a quarter of it I'm my DT. I'll update with results tomorrow!

    I see! Yes the CNPF is very useful... you can add it to your RO or leave-in as well! To your DT... erm I don't know try a few drops at first then adjust later as needed.

    A quick fix until your SS PT arrives is IAgirl's gelatin PT! It's very cheap and so easy to make! I like it almost just as much as the SS PT (it was a little softer but it's true I did the "quick" version.... so actually I might like it exactly as much as I liked the SS PT) but I do need a PT to travel with as well hence I have my SS PT. Hope this is helpful!
    2bc/ f / ii. low porosity roots + normal-high porosity shaft where bleached. normal elasticity.

    Currently using:
    Poo: Earthbath Oatmeal & Aloe
    RO: V05 Kiwi Lime
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: UFD CM, CJ PP
    PT: CJ Repair Me

    :thumright: hydrolized protein, jelly stylers
    :angry8: guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride, sulfates, jojoba oil
    Neutral on cones.

    iherb discount code: CFN646
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    Alright, I probably should not have tried two new things last night. I tried the colorful neutral protein filler in my coconut oil+DT following a low poo. My hair felt great this morning before and after wash, not stiff or anything and while washing it just really felt nice. I styled as usual, but I also bought a hot bonnet this week and was dying to try that out to improve my hair drying time so I put it on for about 10-15 minutes while I did my makeup and brushed my teeth. So the end result is that my hair is still frizzy and it just feels dry which is wierd given that I soaked it overnight in oil and condish which usually makes it look lovely. So now I don't know whether it was the bonnet or my PT/DT but I do know that I am not having nice hair!
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
  • alslgirl2002alslgirl2002 Posts: 210Registered Users
    wavydaze wrote: »
    wavydaze wrote: »

    You can add some protein to the DT. I would maybe recommend keeping your PTs and DTs separate, at least for now uI figurentil you're learning what benefits your hair and what your hair can tolerate.

    Otherwise if you put protein in your DTs and lots of oils/conditioner in your PTs then they're not "true" DTs or PTs and you won't know what is really doing what, if that makes sense. It's helpful to have a different focus/concept for DT and PT, at least at first.

    I figure that once I get the SS PT that I will do that once weekly and a separate DT once weekly. Really probably every 5ish days or whatever works with my hair/work/workout schedule. This is just a quick fix until I get my new products in the mail. I got the trial size bottle which is about 1oz and I used maybe a quarter of it I'm my DT. I'll update with results tomorrow!

    I see! Yes the CNPF is very useful... you can add it to your RO or leave-in as well! To your DT... erm I don't know try a few drops at first then adjust later as needed.

    A quick fix until your SS PT arrives is IAgirl's gelatin PT! It's very cheap and so easy to make! I like it almost just as much as the SS PT (it was a little softer but it's true I did the "quick" version.... so actually I might like it exactly as much as I liked the SS PT) but I do need a PT to travel with as well hence I have my SS PT. Hope this is helpful!

    I do use IAgirls gelatin, but the vibe I was getting from the thread is that it could be washing out quickly so I was hoping the overnight soak would help reduce the washout.
    Type 2B - 3A
    Med-High Porosity (partial highlights), medium & corse mixed textures

    CG Day 1: May 16, 2013

    Poo: CJ Daily Fix Cleansing Condish (as needed)
    CO: Tresemme Naturals Vibrantly Smooth Condish
    RO&LI: CJ Beauticurls Argan & Olive Oil Daily Hair Condish
    Styling: CJ Pattern Pusha or FSG, TRESemme Flawless Curls - Bouncy Curls Defining Gel, Giovanni LANaturals HardHold Gel (canopy only)
    DT: CJ Curl Rehab, Coconut oil, SS Repairing PT

    Techniques: Scrunch-n-pump, tshirt wrap
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