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Dry top layer, different lengths, silicones and polyquats

Hey! Hope you guys can help me out a little!

Some background info:
I have been CG for 6 months now. I started off with baking soda and silicone free conditioner and went over to only conditioner washing after about 2 months. During this period I have used sulfate shampoo twice(because i made a bad DT haha, had to get that stuff out!!). Hair goes down a little past my bra strap on the back. I don't use heat or color(for 3 years or so).

So these are my questions:
1. The top layer of my hair is really dry. It has just started to curl a bit which I'm really happy about. The first few inches at the root does not seem dry at all, but further down, it seems thick, porous and darker in color than the rest. My question is: Does anyone else have this problem? Have you managed to fix it? Do any of you treat different parts of your hair differently?

2. On the length of my hair I also have a lot of short strands that are shorter and/or stick out from each curl. Some of them look fine, some of them looks fried and some of them have split ends. What do you guys think? I really don't understand what I'm doing wrong with my hair. btw, i did cut of my dry ends before i started CG and my ends are still soft and not dry.

3. Can non water soluble silicones be removed by a no-poo?

4. Should polyquats be avoided for me that don't want to use shampoo/no-poo?


Appreciate any advice! :cyclops:
2b/2c
Density: low
Porosity: high and med
Width: fine and med

Current products:
Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix

Comments

  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    Welcome! Do you know what your hair properties and dew points are and are you choosing ingredients and products based on that?

    Unfortunately baking soda is highly alkaline so probably more damaging to both skin and hair than sulphate shampoos, it isn't really Curly Girl which is all about conditioning and hydration.

    Silicones can be removed by a shampoo containing cocoamidopropyl betaine. It would be wise to avoid the polyquats that are not water soluble. What are you deep treating with at present?

    Do you consistently protect your hair from sunlight? Are you being super gentle on your hair in other ways, satin pillowcase or sleep cap, loose up dos secured by gentle accessories, finger detangling only, not catching or rubbing your hair on car headrest/ sofa/ purse strap? Don't underestimate 'weathering' and mechanical damage.

    Once your hair gets long it loses some or all of its cuticle, you need to 'search and destroy split ends with super sharp scissors you only use for hairdressing. Beneficial ingredients for porous or damaged hair include coconut oil, hydrolysed protein, ceramides and panthenol.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    Welcome! Do you know what your hair properties and dew points are and are you choosing ingredients and products based on that?

    Unfortunately baking soda is highly alkaline so probably more damaging to both skin and hair than sulphate shampoos, it isn't really Curly Girl which is all about conditioning and hydration.

    Silicones can be removed by a shampoo containing cocoamidopropyl betaine. It would be wise to avoid the polyquats that are not water soluble. What are you deep treating with at present?

    Do you consistently protect your hair from sunlight? Are you being super gentle on your hair in other ways, satin pillowcase or sleep cap, loose up dos secured by gentle accessories, finger detangling only, not catching or rubbing your hair on car headrest/ sofa/ purse strap? Don't underestimate 'weathering' and mechanical damage.

    Once your hair gets long it loses some or all of its cuticle, you need to 'search and destroy split ends with super sharp scissors you only use for hairdressing. Beneficial ingredients for porous or damaged hair include coconut oil, hydrolysed protein, ceramides and panthenol.


    Thanks for the advice!
    How do you check if the polyquats are water soluble? Do you have a special page? Some I found on this page but some I cant even find answer for on google..

    I just started writing a "hair diary" 2 weeks ago! With dew points, temperature, products used and results. The temp and dew here for some days have been:
    temp: 18,5 celsius, dew: 17
    temp: 15,6 dew: 14
    temp: 24, 5 dew 16
    Can you tell me what this means? Does a small distance between temp and dew mean more water in the air? I think its hard to choose products based on hair properties because I'm not sure what they are.
    I _think_ they are:
    Texture: fine(around the ears), medium(the rest)
    Density: low/medium
    Porosity: high(on top), low(around ears), medium(the rest)
    Elasticity: Low/med
    Products: KCKT and KCCC or body shop rainforest moisture and cottonseed curl boost.

    I'm not really good with DT's because they are usually too heavy for me. If I use store bought stuff(silicone free), they make my hair nice and shiny, but kills my curls. I made some myself, but my hair always turns out greasy.. :hmph:

    Before I went CG I usually washed my hair every 3rd or 4th day and it worked because I would wash at night and brush out the curls and when i slept on it, it would be nice and pretty straight the next days. Now however, I have trouble preserving the curls at night and they look funky the next morning so I have to wash again every morning. Is it bad to wash every day? I guess it at least can be damaging because I touch my hair more, but is it good or bad to get it saturated so often?

    I'm still working on preserving and protecting the curls(bought an afro comp and shower cap!) and will try the search & destroy!! lol
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    Thanks for the advice!
    How do you check if the polyquats are water soluble? Do you have a special page? Some I found on this page but some I cant even find answer for on google..

    I just started writing a "hair diary" 2 weeks ago! With dew points, temperature, products used and results. The temp and dew here for some days have been:
    temp: 18,5 celsius, dew: 17
    temp: 15,6 dew: 14
    temp: 24, 5 dew 16
    Can you tell me what this means? Does a small distance between temp and dew mean more water in the air? I think its hard to choose products based on hair properties because I'm not sure what they are.
    I _think_ they are:
    Texture: fine(around the ears), medium(the rest)
    Density: low/medium
    Porosity: high(on top), low(around ears), medium(the rest)
    Elasticity: Low/med
    Products: KCKT and KCCC or body shop rainforest moisture and cottonseed curl boost.

    I'm not really good with DT's because they are usually too heavy for me. If I use store bought stuff(silicone free), they make my hair nice and shiny, but kills my curls. I made some myself, but my hair always turns out greasy.. :hmph:

    Before I went CG I usually washed my hair every 3rd or 4th day and it worked because I would wash at night and brush out the curls and when i slept on it, it would be nice and pretty straight the next days. Now however, I have trouble preserving the curls at night and they look funky the next morning so I have to wash again every morning. Is it bad to wash every day? I guess it at least can be damaging because I touch my hair more, but is it good or bad to get it saturated so often?

    I'm still working on preserving and protecting the curls(bought an afro comp and shower cap!) and will try the search & destroy!! lol

    Impressed by your hair diary!

    Some of the polyquats are mentioned in articles on one of the more science based blogs, otherwise it's a case of Googling. Your dews are low, humectants like glycerin could be a problem. Kinky Curly Knot Today is not a true conditioner it is a detangler, it contains no oils and little emollients (fatty alcohols and cationic surfactants), the Rainforest Moisture is better especially for your dry/ porous canopy.

    Humidity, Humectants and the Dew Point
    Polyquats as Conditioning Agents
    All About Another Hard-to-Pronounce Compound
    No-poo Jillipoo: Silicones, polyquats, and soap

    Waterlily716 on YouTube has several videos on second day hair
    waterlily716 - curly hair & beauty @:-) - YouTube

    Porosity and hygral fatigue (water damage)
    Porosity and Curly Hair
    Mineral Oil Versus Coconut Oil: Which is better?
    THE NATURAL HAVEN: Part 1 of 2: Porosity - Definition and Causes
    THE NATURAL HAVEN: Does your hair have hygral fatigue?

    What deep conditioners are you making and how are you cleansing the excess out? Conditioner only washing will shift many oils, some are too heavy or thick - olive oil, shea butter and castor oil have been reported as an issue.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    Thanks for the advice!
    How do you check if the polyquats are water soluble? Do you have a special page? Some I found on this page but some I cant even find answer for on google..

    I just started writing a "hair diary" 2 weeks ago! With dew points, temperature, products used and results. The temp and dew here for some days have been:
    temp: 18,5 celsius, dew: 17
    temp: 15,6 dew: 14
    temp: 24, 5 dew 16
    Can you tell me what this means? Does a small distance between temp and dew mean more water in the air? I think its hard to choose products based on hair properties because I'm not sure what they are.
    I _think_ they are:
    Texture: fine(around the ears), medium(the rest)
    Density: low/medium
    Porosity: high(on top), low(around ears), medium(the rest)
    Elasticity: Low/med
    Products: KCKT and KCCC or body shop rainforest moisture and cottonseed curl boost.

    I'm not really good with DT's because they are usually too heavy for me. If I use store bought stuff(silicone free), they make my hair nice and shiny, but kills my curls. I made some myself, but my hair always turns out greasy.. :hmph:

    Before I went CG I usually washed my hair every 3rd or 4th day and it worked because I would wash at night and brush out the curls and when i slept on it, it would be nice and pretty straight the next days. Now however, I have trouble preserving the curls at night and they look funky the next morning so I have to wash again every morning. Is it bad to wash every day? I guess it at least can be damaging because I touch my hair more, but is it good or bad to get it saturated so often?

    I'm still working on preserving and protecting the curls(bought an afro comp and shower cap!) and will try the search & destroy!! lol

    Impressed by your hair diary!

    Some of the polyquats are mentioned in articles on one of the more science based blogs, otherwise it's a case of Googling. Your dews are low, humectants like glycerin could be a problem. Kinky Curly Knot Today is not a true conditioner it is a detangler, it contains no oils and little emollients (fatty alcohols and cationic surfactants), the Rainforest Moisture is better especially for your dry/ porous canopy.

    Humidity, Humectants and the Dew Point
    Polyquats as Conditioning Agents
    All About Another Hard-to-Pronounce Compound
    No-poo Jillipoo: Silicones, polyquats, and soap

    Waterlily716 on YouTube has several videos on second day hair
    waterlily716 - curly hair & beauty @:-) - YouTube

    Porosity and hygral fatigue (water damage)
    Porosity and Curly Hair
    Mineral Oil Versus Coconut Oil: Which is better?
    THE NATURAL HAVEN: Part 1 of 2: Porosity - Definition and Causes
    THE NATURAL HAVEN: Does your hair have hygral fatigue?

    What deep conditioners are you making and how are you cleansing the excess out? Conditioner only washing will shift many oils, some are too heavy or thick - olive oil, shea butter and castor oil have been reported as an issue.


    Ok, will check out the links today. The home made DT's were:
    1. 2 pumps of everyday shea moisture conditioner and 3 drops of coco oil .(too oily)
    2. 1 egg, 1 big ts honey, some random conditioner(no oils in it), 3 drops jojoba oil.(dry and weird result)
    3. 2 eggs, rainforest moisture, faith in nature Hemp & Meadowfoam, some lavender, 3 drops jojoba oil, half a avocado.(too oily)
    I don't use anything other than water and sometimes a non oily conditioner to get it out. Is it essential to wash a DT out with a no/low-poo?
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    Ok, will check out the links today. The home made DT's were:
    1. 2 pumps of everyday shea moisture conditioner and 3 drops of coco oil .(too oily)
    2. 1 egg, 1 big ts honey, some random conditioner(no oils in it), 3 drops jojoba oil.(dry and weird result)
    3. 2 eggs, rainforest moisture, faith in nature Hemp & Meadowfoam, some lavender, 3 drops jojoba oil, half a avocado.(too oily)
    I don't use anything other than water and sometimes a non oily conditioner to get it out. Is it essential to wash a DT out with a no/low-poo?

    All your recipes are heavy on oils/ fats/ butters aside from the coconut and jojoba oil, so I'm not sure why you are blaming those oils. A few drops is nothing, plenty of curlies and long hairs here deep treat with a tablespoon or more.

    No it is not usually necessary to wash a commercial deep treatment out, most are formulated to wash away fairly clean with water only. Deep conditioners contain the right balance of fatty alcohols and cationic surfactants to act as emulsifiers for the oils present in the formula, *some* can take additions, depending on the ingredients.

    But if you make up DIY treatments by adding an oil rich substance to two other oil rich substances then yes you may need to shampoo or co-wash away the excess, particularly if you don't consider the formula when you make up a blend. Generally lightweight low oil conditioners with plenty of cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols will take a certain amount of natural oils or butters, heavy conditioners cannot.

    1. Everyday Shea is heavy on shea butter and other oils, shea can build up
    "Aqueous Shea Leaf (Butyrospermum parkii) Extract, Handcrafted Shea (Butyrospermum parkii) Butter, Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Behentrimonium Chloride, Emulsifying Wax, Palm Stearic Acid, Lavender Essential Oil, Phenoxyethanol, Potassium Sorbate, Citric Acid."
    Shea Butter Moisturizing Conditioner - Conditioner - EverydayShea

    2. You don't identify the base so difficult to comment, either too much honey or your hair doesn't like egg. Honey and egg both have weak cleansing properties which might explain the dryness when used together

    3. Egg yolks and avocado are both packed with fats and dense wholefoods can be difficult to wash out of the hair. I suspect you massively overloaded the conditioner base with so many oily additions, FIN is particularly low in emulsifiers
    "Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Distearoylethyl Hydroxyethylmonium Methosulfate, Cocos Nucifera Oil, Orbignya Oleifera Seed Oil, Citric Acid, Cetyl Esters, Sodium Benzoate, Parfum, Hydroxypropyl Guar, Schinziophyton Rautanenii Kernel Oil, Salicylic Acid, Mel, Pentaclethra Macroloba Seed Oil, Tocopherol."
    Rainforest Moisture Conditioner | Bath & Body Care | The Body Shop

    "Water, cetyl stearyl alcohol*, brassica oleifera*, cannabis sativa*, meadowfoam (limnanthes alba) seed oil*, cymbopogon citrates* (lemongrass), citrus x paradisi* (grapefruit), zingiber officinale*(ginger), melaleuca alternifolia*, cetrimonium chloride*, limonene°"
    Faith in Nature Hemp & Meadowfoam Conditioner
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users

    All your recipes are heavy on oils/ fats/ butters aside from the coconut and jojoba oil, so I'm not sure why you are blaming those oils. A few drops is nothing, plenty of curlies and long hairs here deep treat with a tablespoon or more.

    No it is not usually necessary to wash a commercial deep treatment out, most are formulated to wash away fairly clean with water only. Deep conditioners contain the right balance of fatty alcohols and cationic surfactants to act as emulsifiers for the oils present in the formula, *some* can take additions, depending on the ingredients.

    But if you make up DIY treatments by adding an oil rich substance to two other oil rich substances then yes you may need to shampoo or co-wash away the excess, particularly if you don't consider the formula when you make up a blend. Generally lightweight low oil conditioners with plenty of cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols will take a certain amount of natural oils or butters, heavy conditioners cannot.

    1. Everyday Shea is heavy on shea butter and other oils, shea can build up
    "Aqueous Shea Leaf (Butyrospermum parkii) Extract, Handcrafted Shea (Butyrospermum parkii) Butter, Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Behentrimonium Chloride, Emulsifying Wax, Palm Stearic Acid, Lavender Essential Oil, Phenoxyethanol, Potassium Sorbate, Citric Acid."
    Shea Butter Moisturizing Conditioner - Conditioner - EverydayShea

    2. You don't identify the base so difficult to comment, either too much honey or your hair doesn't like egg. Honey and egg both have weak cleansing properties which might explain the dryness when used together

    3. Egg yolks and avocado are both packed with fats and dense wholefoods can be difficult to wash out of the hair. I suspect you massively overloaded the conditioner base with so many oily additions, FIN is particularly low in emulsifiers
    "Water, Cetearyl Alcohol, Distearoylethyl Hydroxyethylmonium Methosulfate, Cocos Nucifera Oil, Orbignya Oleifera Seed Oil, Citric Acid, Cetyl Esters, Sodium Benzoate, Parfum, Hydroxypropyl Guar, Schinziophyton Rautanenii Kernel Oil, Salicylic Acid, Mel, Pentaclethra Macroloba Seed Oil, Tocopherol."
    Rainforest Moisture Conditioner | Bath & Body Care | The Body Shop

    "Water, cetyl stearyl alcohol*, brassica oleifera*, cannabis sativa*, meadowfoam (limnanthes alba) seed oil*, cymbopogon citrates* (lemongrass), citrus x paradisi* (grapefruit), zingiber officinale*(ginger), melaleuca alternifolia*, cetrimonium chloride*, limonene°"
    Faith in Nature Hemp & Meadowfoam Conditioner

    I obviously know a lot less about this stuff than I thought! But at least now I know that I don't know :occasion9:
    I think the base of these DT's must be eggs on no. 2 and no. 3.

    Is your opinion that Everyday Shea and Rainforest moisture is too oily(or the balance of emulsifiers/oils,butters) to successfully add more oils and still manage to wash it out with only water?
    And FIN is exceptionally bad for doing so(because it has only one emulsifier)?
    If these two predicates are wrong: please correct me.
    And if I'm right:
    1. Are there any ingredient I can put in, that will act as a emulsifier?
    2. How come FIN does not feel oily on my hair, but on the contrary it feels rather drying?
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    I obviously know a lot less about this stuff than I thought! But at least now I know that I don't know :occasion9:
    I think the base of these DT's must be eggs on no. 2 and no. 3.

    Is your opinion that Everyday Shea and Rainforest moisture is too oily(or the balance of emulsifiers/oils,butters) to successfully add more oils and still manage to wash it out with only water?
    And FIN is exceptionally bad for doing so(because it has only one emulsifier)?
    If these two predicates are wrong: please correct me.
    And if I'm right:
    1. Are there any ingredient I can put in, that will act as a emulsifier?
    2. How come FIN does not feel oily on my hair, but on the contrary it feels rather drying?

    Everyday Shea wouldn't be my choice of a base since there is more shea than emulsifiers, nor FIN because there is only one emulsifier/ emollient. Plus I can't see the point in using either as a deep treatment, shea butter is not considered a penetrating oil/ butter nor are many of the oils in the FIN.

    FIN may feel drying due to the pH, the lack of slippy emollients, the waxy cetyl esters, I can't say for sure not having used it nor knowing the precise formula. It's not simply oils that make hair feel conditioned in fact oil free condiioners can do the task: the reduction in friction imparted by cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols, flattening the cuticle with an acidic pH also play key roles.

    If it were me I'd have a crack at adding more oils to the Body Shop Rainforest moisture since you have it available, but nowhere near as much fatty ingredients much as you did. But why would you want to add even more oils with an extra emulsifier, what exactly are you trying to achieve? It's not deep conditioning if you barely use any conditioning agents relative to the occlusives, you may as well do a straight up oil treatment overnight on dry hair as per the published research, wash the excess out with shampoo or conditioner.

    You could purchase and add one of the polysorbates - these are used by some doing the Oil Cleansing Method for skin - but that isn't going to have any particular haircare benefits. By contrast fatty alcohols and cationic surfactants are multi functional - acting as emulsifiers and conditioning agents.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • emmmadilemmmaemmmadilemmma Posts: 8Registered Users
    Do you apply your DT before or after you cleanse your hair? I find that my hair gets less weighed down when I cleanse after using a DT. Also, maybe the addition of extra oils to your conditioner is too much for your hair. You can try adding some honey to one of your regular conditioners and using that as a DT. The DT will also penetrate your hair better if you use heat. I recommend rinsing your hair, applying the DT, putting on a shower cap/saran wrap, and using a blow dryer to heat up the conditioner that's in your hair. After that, you can cleanse and condition your hair as you normally would.

    Also, have you tried a protein treatment yet? I was afraid to use protein for a long time, but I recently started using IAgirl's PT and it makes my hair super soft and shiny and bouncy. Protein treatments can also help strengthen your hair and protect it from environmental damage.
    2B, medium textured, medium porosity

    CG since Sept. 2012

    Cleanser: Jason Dandruff Relief Shampoo (sulfate free)
    RO Conditioners: Elucence Moisture Balancing Conditioner, Nature's Gate Jojoba
    Gels/Styling Products: DevaCurl B'Leave In, AG Cosmetics Re:Coil, Aussie Instant Freeze Gel, BSRHG
    Protein Treatment: IAgirl's gelatin protein treatment
    Amla treatment every other week
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    Everyday Shea wouldn't be my choice of a base since there is more shea than emulsifiers, nor FIN because there is only one emulsifier/ emollient. Plus I can't see the point in using either as a deep treatment, shea butter is not considered a penetrating oil/ butter nor are many of the oils in the FIN.

    FIN may feel drying due to the pH, the lack of slippy emollients, the waxy cetyl esters, I can't say for sure not having used it nor knowing the precise formula. It's not simply oils that make hair feel conditioned in fact oil free condiioners can do the task: the reduction in friction imparted by cationic surfactants and fatty alcohols, flattening the cuticle with an acidic pH also play key roles.

    If it were me I'd have a crack at adding more oils to the Body Shop Rainforest moisture since you have it available, but nowhere near as much fatty ingredients much as you did. But why would you want to add even more oils with an extra emulsifier, what exactly are you trying to achieve? It's not deep conditioning if you barely use any conditioning agents relative to the occlusives, you may as well do a straight up oil treatment overnight on dry hair as per the published research, wash the excess out with shampoo or conditioner.

    You could purchase and add one of the polysorbates - these are used by some doing the Oil Cleansing Method for skin - but that isn't going to have any particular haircare benefits. By contrast fatty alcohols and cationic surfactants are multi functional - acting as emulsifiers and conditioning agents.

    I'm not trying to achieve anything by doing that, I was simply asking because I wanted to know if I understood your point.
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    Do you apply your DT before or after you cleanse your hair? I find that my hair gets less weighed down when I cleanse after using a DT. Also, maybe the addition of extra oils to your conditioner is too much for your hair. You can try adding some honey to one of your regular conditioners and using that as a DT. The DT will also penetrate your hair better if you use heat. I recommend rinsing your hair, applying the DT, putting on a shower cap/saran wrap, and using a blow dryer to heat up the conditioner that's in your hair. After that, you can cleanse and condition your hair as you normally would.

    Also, have you tried a protein treatment yet? I was afraid to use protein for a long time, but I recently started using IAgirl's PT and it makes my hair super soft and shiny and bouncy. Protein treatments can also help strengthen your hair and protect it from environmental damage.

    I just wet my hair, then apply, then wash it with only water afterwards. I don't really use shampoo so thats why I have some problems getting the excess out. Will try the honey thing when I get home again from my trip abroad on monday:) Hopefully the shower cap that I ordered online has arrived by then as well! I also ordered Aubrey organics GPB for the proteins(before I knew it possible to use gelatin). Have you tried it? If my hair seem to like proteins I will try the gelatin stuff too!
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    I just wet my hair, then apply, then wash it with only water afterwards. I don't really use shampoo so thats why I have some problems getting the excess out. Will try the honey thing when I get home again from my trip abroad on monday:) Hopefully the shower cap that I ordered online has arrived by then as well! I also ordered Aubrey organics GPB for the proteins(before I knew it possible to use gelatin). Have you tried it? If my hair seem to like proteins I will try the gelatin stuff too!

    I don't think the Aubrey Organics is hydrolysed protein.

    Komaza Care claim
    "We found that using Aloe Vera along with Behentrimonium Methosulfate creates a more effective protein treatment. Aloe Vera paired with Behentrimonium Methosulfate act as a carrier for the proteins allowing them to further penetrate the hair shaft to minimize protein build-up."
    Products - Komaza Care

    I have Komaza Care's old formula protein strengthener which is basically hydrolysed protein and water, and does leave my hair rather straw like. I tried this by layering over a lightweight conditioner with those two high in the ingredients list (CURLS Milkshake) and it did seem to be effective.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    Yes, but I think its better with a milder type of protein to start with and go further from there if my hair dont react badly. Does komaza skip to Norway?
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    Yes, but I think its better with a milder type of protein to start with and go further from there if my hair dont react badly. Does komaza skip to Norway?

    I'm not convinced the protein in the Aubrey Organics would do anything, full size protein won't absorb and little to nothing will stick since the molecules are too large.
    THE NATURAL HAVEN: Size matters : Protein Conditioning (part 1 of 2)

    I think they do ship to Europe but it's pricey, other wise British Curlies stock Komaza Care. I wasn't saying you need to purchase from them tho, I don't see why you can't combine a weak gelatin treatment with a product containing behentrimonium and aloe to hopefully avoid build up and dryness.

    If you are in Europe the other option for hydrolysed protein on the cheap is Schwarzkopf Gliss (Kur) Ultimate Volume conditioner. The lovely Neleke and I are both using this. Ingredients
    "water, cetearyl alcohol, hydrolyzed collagen, panthenol, cocodimonium hydroxypropyl hydrolyzed keratin, hydrolyzed keratin, isopropyl myristate, behonoyl PG-trimonium chloride, citric acid, VP/VA copolymer, phenoxyethanol, behentrimonium chloride, sodium methylparaben, hexylene glycol, fragrance, polyquaternium-37, dicaprylyl carbonate, hexyl cinnamal, amyl cinnamal, limonene, linalool, benzyl salicylate."
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • emmmadilemmmaemmmadilemmma Posts: 8Registered Users
    Do you apply your DT before or after you cleanse your hair? I find that my hair gets less weighed down when I cleanse after using a DT. Also, maybe the addition of extra oils to your conditioner is too much for your hair. You can try adding some honey to one of your regular conditioners and using that as a DT. The DT will also penetrate your hair better if you use heat. I recommend rinsing your hair, applying the DT, putting on a shower cap/saran wrap, and using a blow dryer to heat up the conditioner that's in your hair. After that, you can cleanse and condition your hair as you normally would.

    Also, have you tried a protein treatment yet? I was afraid to use protein for a long time, but I recently started using IAgirl's PT and it makes my hair super soft and shiny and bouncy. Protein treatments can also help strengthen your hair and protect it from environmental damage.

    I just wet my hair, then apply, then wash it with only water afterwards. I don't really use shampoo so thats why I have some problems getting the excess out. Will try the honey thing when I get home again from my trip abroad on monday:) Hopefully the shower cap that I ordered online has arrived by then as well! I also ordered Aubrey organics GPB for the proteins(before I knew it possible to use gelatin). Have you tried it? If my hair seem to like proteins I will try the gelatin stuff too!
    Well, if you find that your hair is still getting weighed down after you use a deep conditioner, it might be a good idea to use a low-poo after the DT. I'm not really a shampoo person either, but Shea Moisture, Jessicurl, and DevaCurl all make really gentle, moisturizing low-poos that don't dry my hair out. You might wanna try one of those.

    I've never used any of the Aubrey Organics conditioners because I'm afraid that their high content of drying alcohol will cause more frizz and dryness for me, but I think that the proteins still could be effective even if they're not hydrolyzed. It just won't penetrate your hair quite as well as a conditioner that contains hydrolyzed protein. Try the GPB and see what happens :)
    2B, medium textured, medium porosity

    CG since Sept. 2012

    Cleanser: Jason Dandruff Relief Shampoo (sulfate free)
    RO Conditioners: Elucence Moisture Balancing Conditioner, Nature's Gate Jojoba
    Gels/Styling Products: DevaCurl B'Leave In, AG Cosmetics Re:Coil, Aussie Instant Freeze Gel, BSRHG
    Protein Treatment: IAgirl's gelatin protein treatment
    Amla treatment every other week
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    I think u are right, maybe I should just get a no-poo or I will have to experiment a lot more with the DTs.

    In the link u sent, Firefox, it says that hydrolyzed or at least small proteins is what u need to get the effect u want of absorbing or adsorbing. And wheat protein is too large to be useful. But in the book "live curly live free" it says that hydrolyzed and animal based are "stronger" types and that wheat and soy are "weaker" and choosing between these types should be done based on hair type.

    Btw, I actually have the leave in conditioner mousse from the gliss volume series. Its got lots of hydrolyzed proteins too but also 3(I think) polyquats.
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    Mobile app wont work:(
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    Duplicate!
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    It did work!? lol
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    I think u are right, maybe I should just get a no-poo or I will have to experiment a lot more with the DTs.

    In the link u sent, Firefox, it says that hydrolyzed or at least small proteins is what u need to get the effect u want of absorbing or adsorbing. And wheat protein is too large to be useful. But in the book "live curly live free" it says that hydrolyzed and animal based are "stronger" types and that wheat and soy are "weaker" and choosing between these types should be done based on hair type.

    Btw, I actually have the leave in conditioner mousse from the gliss volume series. Its got lots of hydrolyzed proteins too but also 3(I think) polyquats.

    Can't easily comment without reading the book because you have paraphrased. Is the wording directly contradictory? What are the scientific references used by LCLF?
    Studies on penetration of hydrolysed wheat
    The use of radiolabelling techniques to mea... [Int J Cosmet Sci. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fjournal.scconline.org%2Fpdf%2Fcc2000%2Fcc051n03%2Fp00193-p00203.pdf" class="Popup

    The Natural Haven blog refers to textbooks and published studies so, as a fellow scientist and in the absence of any contradictory research, I'll plump for that. It also fits in with what is known about fatty acids penetrating or not based on size. 'Curl chemist' Tonya McKay's take on it
    Proteins: Why You Should Care
    Another science based opinion, which brings both 'sides' together somewhat
    Revisiting the Idea of Protein Overload | Curly Nikki | Natural Hair Styles and Natural Hair Care
    More from Natural Haven
    THE NATURAL HAVEN: Moisture Issue: Proteins and moisture levels!

    I haven't seen the Gliss mousse but will look out for it, thanks!
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users

    Can't easily comment without reading the book because you have paraphrased. Is the wording directly contradictory? What are the scientific references used by LCLF?
    Studies on penetration of hydrolysed wheat
    The use of radiolabelling techniques to mea... [Int J Cosmet Sci. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fjournal.scconline.org%2Fpdf%2Fcc2000%2Fcc051n03%2Fp00193-p00203.pdf" class="Popup

    The Natural Haven blog refers to textbooks and published studies so, as a fellow scientist and in the absence of any contradictory research, I'll plump for that. It also fits in with what is known about fatty acids penetrating or not based on size. 'Curl chemist' Tonya McKay's take on it
    Proteins: Why You Should Care
    Another science based opinion, which brings both 'sides' together somewhat
    Revisiting the Idea of Protein Overload | Curly Nikki | Natural Hair Styles and Natural Hair Care
    More from Natural Haven
    THE NATURAL HAVEN: Moisture Issue: Proteins and moisture levels!

    I haven't seen the Gliss mousse but will look out for it, thanks!

    I can't really see any references listed actually, but I'm reading on my kindle so maybe its just hard to see them. At least I know now that no matter how my hair reacts to AOGPB, it does not mean that its because of the protein in it. Thanks for all your help.

    This is the Gliss leave in mousse:
    Gliss Kur - ULTIMATE VOLUME - Express Leave -in Mousse Treatment for flat and damaged hair - Pol Store, Inc.
    No ingredients listed there though..Cant find them online. But if you want them let me know!
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    I can't really see any references listed actually, but I'm reading on my kindle so maybe its just hard to see them. At least I know now that no matter how my hair reacts to AOGPB, it does not mean that its because of the protein in it. Thanks for all your help.

    This is the Gliss leave in mousse:
    Gliss Kur - ULTIMATE VOLUME - Express Leave -in Mousse Treatment for flat and damaged hair - Pol Store, Inc.
    No ingredients listed there though..Cant find them online. But if you want them let me know!

    I would be interested in the ingredients if you have time to type them out, thank you for the offer. Doesn't look like the mousse marketed in the UK but I can get it from eBay or Amazon.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    I would be interested in the ingredients if you have time to type them out, thank you for the offer. Doesn't look like the mousse marketed in the UK but I can get it from eBay or Amazon.

    Np! Here they are:
    Aqua, Cetrimonium chloride, Hydrolyzed collagen, Panthenol, Cocodimonium hydroxypropyl hydrolyzed keratin, Hydrolyzed keratin, Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine, Phenoxyethanol, Ceteareth-25, PEG-12 Dimethicone, Lactic acid, Dipalmitoyethyl dimonium chloride, Silicone quaternium-22, Sodium methylparaben, VP/VA copolymer, PPG-3 Myristyl ether, Coco-betaine, Polyquaternium-69, Glycerin, Propylene glycol, Parfume, Polyquaternium-10, Styrene/VP copolymer, Alcohol denat, Citric acid, Sodium chloride, PEG-14M, Hexyl cinnamal, Amyl cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Benzyl saliylate, Benzyl alcohol, Butylphenyl methylpropional.

    The silicone quaternium-22 is "slightly water soluble" according to this page: Silicone quaternium-22 - Surfactants - SAA Pedia
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    Np! Here they are:
    Aqua, Cetrimonium chloride, Hydrolyzed collagen, Panthenol, Cocodimonium hydroxypropyl hydrolyzed keratin, Hydrolyzed keratin, Stearamidopropyl dimethylamine, Phenoxyethanol, Ceteareth-25, PEG-12 Dimethicone, Lactic acid, Dipalmitoyethyl dimonium chloride, Silicone quaternium-22, Sodium methylparaben, VP/VA copolymer, PPG-3 Myristyl ether, Coco-betaine, Polyquaternium-69, Glycerin, Propylene glycol, Parfume, Polyquaternium-10, Styrene/VP copolymer, Alcohol denat, Citric acid, Sodium chloride, PEG-14M, Hexyl cinnamal, Amyl cinnamal, Limonene, Linalool, Benzyl saliylate, Benzyl alcohol, Butylphenyl methylpropional.

    The silicone quaternium-22 is "slightly water soluble" according to this page: Silicone quaternium-22 - Surfactants - SAA Pedia

    Thank you for taking the time to do that, much appreciated. So the protein and panthenol are way high up the list just as with the conditioner, interesting. How do you rate the product, what does it do for your hair?

    It's funny I have returned to Schwarzkopf Gliss, I used to use a sulphate and silicone heavy shampoo and leave in spray from the line for several years before CG.

    ETA there is a hairspray too, lots of drying alcohol of course.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.glisskur.de%2Fglisskur%2Fde%2Fde%2Fhome%2Fprodukte-loesungen%2Fproduktlinien%2Fultimate-volume%2Fultimate-volume-ansatz-push-up-spray.html" class="Popup
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users

    Thank you for taking the time to do that, much appreciated. So the protein and panthenol are way high up the list just as with the conditioner, interesting. How do you rate the product, what does it do for your hair?

    It's funny I have returned to Schwarzkopf Gliss, I used to use a sulphate and silicone heavy shampoo and leave in spray from the line for several years before CG.

    Haha, I used to hate Gliss! Of some reason I considered it fake. Maybe because of the strong smell. But then I tried the Gliss asia straight one time at my mom's and I was in love.

    I only used the mousse twice actually so I haven't completely decided what I think about it. Once in wet hair and once in dry second day hair. Both times it left my hair a bit silicony and stiff. But on dry hair I was still really happy with the result because it made the curls look more defined. Used on wet hair it didn't turn out well. Stiff, silicony and weird waves instead of curls. I think its because it stiffens the hair where it is, so when I put it on wet, wavy hair, it just stays there. I may have used too much also.

    Do u see any non water stuff there? Do u know anything about the polyquat-69? I have a little trouble trusting this product.
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix
  • Firefox7275Firefox7275 Posts: 3,750Registered Users
    Haha, I used to hate Gliss! Of some reason I considered it fake. Maybe because of the strong smell. But then I tried the Gliss asia straight one time at my mom's and I was in love.

    I only used the mousse twice actually so I haven't completely decided what I think about it. Once in wet hair and once in dry second day hair. Both times it left my hair a bit silicony and stiff. But on dry hair I was still really happy with the result because it made the curls look more defined. Used on wet hair it didn't turn out well. Stiff, silicony and weird waves instead of curls. I think its because it stiffens the hair where it is, so when I put it on wet, wavy hair, it just stays there. I may have used too much also.

    Do u see any non water stuff there? Do u know anything about the polyquat-69? I have a little trouble trusting this product.

    This says polyquat-69 is water soluble and good for curl retention and frizz reduction!
    Polyquaternium 69 A new Fixative Polymer with Enhanced Styling Benefits Cosmetic Science Technology 2007 pdf free ebook download from online1.ispcorp.com

    Hydrolysed protein is also a film former, so can give a sheen
    Proteins: Why You Should Care

    The only thing that jumps out at me is the silicone quaternium, largely because I don't know anything about it. I might buy it, I like the idea of a mousse that can protect and patch repair hair.
    2a-2c, medium texture, porous/ colour treated. Three years CG. Past bra strap length heading for waist.

    CO-wash: Inecto coconut/ Elvive Volume Collagen
    Treatments: Komaza Care Matani, coconut/ sweet almond/ fractionated coconut oils, Hairveda Sitrinillah
    Leave in: Fructis Sleek & Shine (old), Gliss Ultimate Volume, various Elvive
    Styler: Umberto Giannini jelly, Au Naturale styling gelee
    Flour sack towel, pixie diffuse or air dry.
    Experimenting with: benign neglect
  • littleschemerlittleschemer Posts: 25Registered Users
    Yeah, the "slightly water soluble" description scares be a little. I tried a bit of the gliss mousse again now on dry second day hair and I liked the result. My hair feels a bit cleaner, stiffer and frizzier. I think its important to only use a little of this stuff.
    Tomorrow is wash day and I'm gonna try flax seed gel:D
    2b/2c
    Density: low
    Porosity: high and med
    Width: fine and med

    Current products:
    Body shop rainforest radiance shampoo
    Body shop rainforest volumising conditioner
    Body shop rainforest coconut hair oil

    DT: greek yoghurt and gelatine mix

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