Charged with manslaughter for a miscarriage?

yossarianyossarian Posts: 967Registered Users
This is the logical conclusion of the many anti-abortion laws that are being passed around the country. If a fetus at any stage of development is not carried to term, for any reason, is legally considered to have been killed and its mother prosecuted as such.

Mississippi Could Soon Jail Women for Stillbirths, Miscarriages

Once again, Mississippi is at the vanguard of oppression and discrimination :protest:
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Comments

  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Now that is a slippery slope. I do not agree with drug use during pregnancy, especially hard core drug use during pregnancy, but I kept thinking what was eventually said. What if it's determined to be due to eating lunch meat, some cheeses, changing the cat liter box, using a leaf blower, painting a wall, or any number of things women are advised not to do during pregnancy.

    Also that it might stop some women from seeking treatment, being honest with their doctors, and cause more abortions.

    I can't condone that either.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    Don't dare sneak a cigarette in those states while pregnant. You'll go to jail for potential injury. You don't even have to cause actual injury. Imagine what they'll do to women who dare to ride a horse or jog while pregnant. The precious fetuses will have ALL the rights...no rights left for already-born women.
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    AND...

    These are the same people who want a smaller government. I wonder just how big the government will have to be to monitor every.single.pregnancy from ejaculation til birth?
  • nynaeve77nynaeve77 Posts: 7,135Registered Users Curl Novice
    That's crazy. Aren't prisons overcrowded enough?
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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Don't dare sneak a cigarette in those states while pregnant. You'll go to jail for potential injury.

    That one is already a damned if you do, damned if you don't. I was talking about a woman I know the other day who was worrying me a little with her smoking during pregnancy (she's had 2 respiratory infections, is chain smoking, and is already at that point in her pregnancy where it's hard to catch a breath). I try not to judge because I have known several people who tried their hardest to quit, but their stress level, anxiety, and BP went through the roof! They were then advised to continue smoking, but cut back to a bare minimum, by their doc's. What they experienced while trying to follow doctors orders was just as, if not more, harmful to the baby.

    The other day this same woman turned to me and started crying. She said I am not used to being told that I can't do everything I like to do. I am not dealing with this well. I like lunch meat, I like soft cheese, I like leaf blowing, I need to paint the nursery because no one else is going to do it, etc. For me many of those things would not be a big deal, but they add more and more to the list of can not's, every single year.

    Know that's kind of a sidetrack, but could not help thinking about it.
    When I hear terms like "hipster" I think, who told cliques they could leave high school??

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • rouquinnerouquinne Posts: 13,734Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    i like this reply:

    So can we arrest the man involved if he was using drugs and therefore had damaged sperm? There are studies showing that sperm can be affected by all kinds of things. Lets arrest them! http://articles.timesofindia.i...
    stretching your logic just a bit, a man is responsible for having healthy sperm just in case one gets a woman pregnant.

    yep, let's *require* ALL men to maintain healthy sperm at all times just in case they might get a woman pregnant. no booze, no smoking, no prescription medication - even if it's needed for a condition - in case your sperm is damaged and could cause your putative offspring to be lost to miscarriage.

    it's only fair....
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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    rouquinne wrote: »
    yep, let's *require* ALL men to maintain healthy sperm at all times just in case they might get a woman pregnant. no booze, no smoking, no prescription medication - even if it's needed for a condition - in case your sperm is damaged and could cause your putative offspring to be lost to miscarriage.

    it's only fair....

    Logical. I say we implement it!
  • YoshimiYoshimi Posts: 237Registered Users
    This just makes me want to puke. We're considering moving to the US after our daughter is born (my husband is American) but my mind boggles at what rights she will have as a woman in 20 years.

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  • The New BlackThe New Black Posts: 16,754Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    For any reason? That's silly. In Ariel Castro's case, I agree with prosecuting him (for murder actually). He willfully harmed Kelly McKnight to cause miscarriage multiple times. How sick! Not to mention, he could've used protection if he didn't want a(nother) child, which leads me to believe he wanted to impregnate her and then further abuse her and the child with beatings. Ugh, if I think on it too much I'll get depressed... I digress.

    But for using illegal drugs? I agree with that too. How's that different than giving a one-year old drugs?
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  • YoshimiYoshimi Posts: 237Registered Users
    So what if I get Listeria from deli meat, we're told not to eat that during pregnancy so I'm liable right? What if an addict quits drugs and the shock causes miscarriage?

    If my Dr here in costa rica authorised my use of amphetamines for a sleep disorder but I miscarry in Mississippi where do I stand? And what would possess any addict to see a Dr for pre natal care, or addiction treatment knowing it could cause her to be sent to jail.

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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,898Registered Users Curl Virtuoso
    yossarian wrote: »
    This is the logical conclusion of the many anti-abortion laws that are being passed around the country. If a fetus at any stage of development is not carried to term, for any reason, is legally considered to have been killed and its mother prosecuted as such.

    Mississippi Could Soon Jail Women for Stillbirths, Miscarriages

    Once again, Mississippi is at the vanguard of oppression and discrimination :protest:

    You're being purposely misleading. The article is about women who test positive for drug use after miscarrying or while pregnant, in general. Come on now...10% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage and the medical community understands that and doesn't hold the average, nondrug-abusing woman liable.

    This is about women who are drug addicts. I don't see any evidence of a slippery slope.

  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,898Registered Users Curl Virtuoso
    Yoshimi wrote: »
    So what if I get Listeria from deli meat, we're told not to eat that during pregnancy so I'm liable right? What if an addict quits drugs and the shock causes miscarriage?

    If my Dr here in costa rica authorised my use of amphetamines for a sleep disorder but I miscarry in Mississippi where do I stand? And what would possess any addict to see a Dr for pre natal care, or addiction treatment knowing it could cause her to be sent to jail.

    Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using CurlTalk App

    Is there a Listeria-induced miscarriage legal precedent?

    Amphetamines aren't legal in the US, as far as I know. But if your dr is willing to go to bat for you on that one and you are willing to risk the potential harm to your unborn child, then go for it.

  • The New BlackThe New Black Posts: 16,754Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    There could be many "what ifs" and there's no way to anticipate all of them. But if you're under doctor's care, the doctor will advise you of the potential harm to your unborn child.

    And I understand the "where do you draw the line" argument. But eating deli meat isn't illegal under any circumstance. I see no realistic parallel between that and using (unprescribed) drugs.
    montage-3.gif No MAS.

    I am the new Black.

    "Hope the Mail are saving space tomorrow for Samantha Brick's reaction piece on the reactions to her piece about the reactions to her piece." ~ Tweet reposted by Rou.
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    yossarian wrote: »
    This is the logical conclusion of the many anti-abortion laws that are being passed around the country. If a fetus at any stage of development is not carried to term, for any reason, is legally considered to have been killed and its mother prosecuted as such.

    Mississippi Could Soon Jail Women for Stillbirths, Miscarriages

    Once again, Mississippi is at the vanguard of oppression and discrimination :protest:

    You're being purposely misleading. The article is about women who test positive for drug use after miscarrying or while pregnant, in general. Come on now...10% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage and the medical community understands that and doesn't hold the average, nondrug-abusing woman liable.

    This is about women who are drug addicts. I don't see any evidence of a slippery slope.



    But there is no proof that a miscarriage, stillbirth, or even a premature delivery are caused by drug use...since most of the time all of those things can happen in the absence of illegal drug use. A positive drug test doesn't equal causation. If we start jailing women who use illegal drugs after a pregnancy loss, then what is to stop pregnant women being jailed from other activities that are just considered to be dangerous or mildly reckless? It's all subjective. We are a country that needs proof in our judicial system. Without proof, we are nothing more than a dictatorship, or, worse a theocracy, subject to the whims of the ruling party.
  • YoshimiYoshimi Posts: 237Registered Users
    Three are cases of Listeria causing miscarriage of fetal harm, it's why it's recommended that pregnant women don't eat sushi, deli meat or unpasteurized cheese (these recommendations differ by country but this is what's recommended in the US).

    Amphetamines are prescribed for conditions such as narcolepsy still in most countries, including the US, it is authorised as category c for pregnancy. My obgyn (American trained and was at one time adviser to the US embassy here) has approved 2 class c drugs for me to use during pregnancy...so it's not outside of the realm of possibility. Women addicted to prescribed pain killers often continue being given their prescriptions under supervision during pregnancy too.

    Also what happens in instances like caffeine, 5 years ago the recommendation was no caffeine, now it's 200mg a day max. Could a woman be prosecuted for caffeine consumption, then vindicated?

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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,898Registered Users Curl Virtuoso
    yossarian wrote: »
    This is the logical conclusion of the many anti-abortion laws that are being passed around the country. If a fetus at any stage of development is not carried to term, for any reason, is legally considered to have been killed and its mother prosecuted as such.

    Mississippi Could Soon Jail Women for Stillbirths, Miscarriages

    Once again, Mississippi is at the vanguard of oppression and discrimination :protest:

    You're being purposely misleading. The article is about women who test positive for drug use after miscarrying or while pregnant, in general. Come on now...10% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage and the medical community understands that and doesn't hold the average, nondrug-abusing woman liable.

    This is about women who are drug addicts. I don't see any evidence of a slippery slope.



    But there is no proof that a miscarriage, stillbirth, or even a premature delivery are caused by drug use...since most of the time all of those things can happen in the absence of illegal drug use. A positive drug test doesn't equal causation. If we start jailing women who use illegal drugs after a pregnancy loss, then what is to stop pregnant women being jailed from other activities that are just considered to be dangerous or mildly reckless? It's all subjective. We are a country that needs proof in our judicial system. Without proof, we are nothing more than a dictatorship, or, worse a theocracy, subject to the whims of the ruling party.

    No, the fact is they engaged in a potentialy harmful, illegal activity...for which there is a legal consequence.

    If I get caught DUI [read: drugging while pregnant], I will still be charged w/ a crime, whether or not I actually cause a car accident [read: have a miscarrige].

  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    There could be many "what ifs" and there's no way to anticipate all of them. But if you're under doctor's care, the doctor will advise you of the potential harm to your unborn child.

    And I understand the "where do you draw the line" argument. But eating deli meat isn't illegal under any circumstance. I see no realistic parallel between that and using (unprescribed) drugs.



    Consuming alcohol isn't illegal in America, but we can (and do!) criminally prosecute women who give birth to babies with FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome). We do that because FAS is something that can be proven. But if that same woman were to miscarry the pregnancy instead of giving birth to a FAS baby, it can never be proven what caused the miscarriage. We are not medically advanced enough to ever know the exact cause of a miscarriage. We can only speak in probabilities. And probabilities shouldn't be enough to put people in jail. Guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt is what this country was built on.
  • scrillsscrills Posts: 6,700Registered Users
    To continue with what RCW said, fine, charge her with drug possession but how can you prove that the drugs caused the miscarriage.

    There are plenty of women on drugs that have given birth.

    eta: RCW and were replying at the same time
  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,259Registered Users Curl Connoisseur

    You're being purposely misleading. The article is about women who test positive for drug use after miscarrying or while pregnant, in general. Come on now...10% of all pregnancies end in miscarriage and the medical community understands that and doesn't hold the average, nondrug-abusing woman liable.

    This is about women who are drug addicts. I don't see any evidence of a slippery slope.



    But there is no proof that a miscarriage, stillbirth, or even a premature delivery are caused by drug use...since most of the time all of those things can happen in the absence of illegal drug use. A positive drug test doesn't equal causation. If we start jailing women who use illegal drugs after a pregnancy loss, then what is to stop pregnant women being jailed from other activities that are just considered to be dangerous or mildly reckless? It's all subjective. We are a country that needs proof in our judicial system. Without proof, we are nothing more than a dictatorship, or, worse a theocracy, subject to the whims of the ruling party.

    No, the fact is they engaged in a potentialy harmful, illegal activity...for which there is a legal consequence.

    If I mess up on my job and test positive for drug use...or even if perform wonderfully at my job but test positive for drug use anyway, I am subject to the consequences of having used drugs. The person who ate a bologna sandwich for lunch or tripped on a banana peel or whatever won't be subject to those consequences.

    Then those women should be prosecuted for illegal drug use...not for injuring/killing a fetus.
  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,898Registered Users Curl Virtuoso
    There could be many "what ifs" and there's no way to anticipate all of them. But if you're under doctor's care, the doctor will advise you of the potential harm to your unborn child.

    And I understand the "where do you draw the line" argument. But eating deli meat isn't illegal under any circumstance. I see no realistic parallel between that and using (unprescribed) drugs.



    Consuming alcohol isn't illegal in America, but we can (and do!) criminally prosecute women who give birth to babies with FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome). We do that because FAS is something that can be proven. But if that same woman were to miscarry the pregnancy instead of giving birth to a FAS baby, it can never be proven what caused the miscarriage. We are not medically advanced enough to ever know the exact cause of a miscarriage. We can only speak in probabilities. And probabilities shouldn't be enough to put people in jail. Guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt is what this country was built on.

    The crime committed isn't having miscarried. The crime committed, in the state of Mississippi, is having drugged or drank while pregnant.

  • YoshimiYoshimi Posts: 237Registered Users
    Even prosecuting for FAS has its problems, it causes a class divide. In low income families, alcoholic mothers have a 70% chance of giving birth to a child with fas, that drops to 20% in middle income families, suggesting that even fas is not just about alcohol consumption. Studies in Europe show no effects from as much as 6 alcoholic drinks in one sitting.

    The lines are being drawn arbitrarily based on more political and religious days than scientific

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  • PoPo Posts: 2,607Registered Users
    It's hard to prove the cause of a miscarriage or stillbirth. They would still need to prove that drug use caused the stillbirth and I'm not sure they have enough evidence to do so.

    I don't have a problem with UCHIP orders (Unborn Children In Need of Protection in child welfare cases), but I do have a problem with making drug use while pregnant a separate crime from just drug use.

    Like Yoshimi said, there are Class C medications that are given to pregnant women all the time and they can potentially cause miscarriages, stillbirth, or birth defects. Far worse than crack cocaine for instance (now we're finding out that the whole "crack baby" phenomenon was extremely exaggerated). I do think there is a slippery slope.

    Why don't they just charge them with possession and put them in jail/rehab?I just don't see how a DA can really prove the cause of death.
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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,898Registered Users Curl Virtuoso



    But there is no proof that a miscarriage, stillbirth, or even a premature delivery are caused by drug use...since most of the time all of those things can happen in the absence of illegal drug use. A positive drug test doesn't equal causation. If we start jailing women who use illegal drugs after a pregnancy loss, then what is to stop pregnant women being jailed from other activities that are just considered to be dangerous or mildly reckless? It's all subjective. We are a country that needs proof in our judicial system. Without proof, we are nothing more than a dictatorship, or, worse a theocracy, subject to the whims of the ruling party.

    No, the fact is they engaged in a potentialy harmful, illegal activity...for which there is a legal consequence.

    If I mess up on my job and test positive for drug use...or even if perform wonderfully at my job but test positive for drug use anyway, I am subject to the consequences of having used drugs. The person who ate a bologna sandwich for lunch or tripped on a banana peel or whatever won't be subject to those consequences.

    Then those women should be prosecuted for illegal drug use...not for injuring/killing a fetus.

    Maybe in your state or mine they would be. But in the state of Mississippi, they have different laws and refraining from drinking and drugging while pregnant is apparently now one of their laws.

    Personally, I see it shortsighted for them to call these crimes manslaughter etc bc they would have that burden of proof thing which would likely work against them in court at times.

    But if they are take issue w/ pregnant women using drugs to the point they want to prosecute it, balls to the wall, that's their right.

  • The New BlackThe New Black Posts: 16,754Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    scrills wrote: »
    To continue with what RCW said, fine, charge her with drug possession but how can you prove that the drugs caused the miscarriage.

    There are plenty of women on drugs that have given birth.

    eta: RCW and were replying at the same time
    That's what autopsies are for. And there are people who do drugs (pregnant or not) that go about their lives relatively unaffected, but it doesn't make drugs in themselves any less harmful. They were just exceptions to the rule.
    montage-3.gif No MAS.

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  • PoPo Posts: 2,607Registered Users
    Yoshimi wrote: »
    Even prosecuting for FAS has its problems, it causes a class divide. In low income families, alcoholic mothers have a 70% chance of giving birth to a child with fas, that drops to 20% in middle income families, suggesting that even fas is not just about alcohol consumption. Studies in Europe show no effects from as much as 6 alcoholic drinks in one sitting.

    The lines are being drawn arbitrarily based on more political and religious days than scientific

    Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using CurlTalk App

    That's interesting. I was reading something a while back that said you really have to drink A LOT (stone cold alcoholic) to cause FAS. I've always thought that was probably the case.
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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,898Registered Users Curl Virtuoso
    Yoshimi wrote: »
    Even prosecuting for FAS has its problems, it causes a class divide. In low income families, alcoholic mothers have a 70% chance of giving birth to a child with fas, that drops to 20% in middle income families, suggesting that even fas is not just about alcohol consumption. Studies in Europe show no effects from as much as 6 alcoholic drinks in one sitting.

    The lines are being drawn arbitrarily based on more political and religious days than scientific

    Sent from my HTC_Amaze_4G using CurlTalk App

    Again, delivering a baby w/ FASD isn't the crime. It's the drinking that caused the baby to develop that condition.

  • scrillsscrills Posts: 6,700Registered Users
    scrills wrote: »
    To continue with what RCW said, fine, charge her with drug possession but how can you prove that the drugs caused the miscarriage.

    There are plenty of women on drugs that have given birth.

    eta: RCW and were replying at the same time
    That's what autopsies are for. And there are people who do drugs (pregnant or not) that go about their lives as usual, but it doesn't make drugs in themselves any less harmful. They were just exceptions to the rule.

    The autopsy will be able to pinpoint the cause of death what not what lead to that cause. For example, if someone dies of a heart attack, the autospy is not going to list "too many cheeseburgers", "obesity", or genetic heart defect
  • theliothelio Posts: 5,374Registered Users
    I have seen babies more on drugs. i have several cousins who still dealing with the effects of being born on drugs. I think the mothers should be held accountable. But not throw in jail for murder. But given some help. this wouldnt be a problem if there were more treatment out there. obviously this woman loved her baby and has changed her life around. Once drugs get a hold of you its hard to get away with out the proper help. Luckily she was able to get help. She will have to live with what she did for ever. i think thats punishment enough.

    Sidenote: Lunch meat should be illegal, all that sodium! Just Say No!!
  • scrillsscrills Posts: 6,700Registered Users
    There could be many "what ifs" and there's no way to anticipate all of them. But if you're under doctor's care, the doctor will advise you of the potential harm to your unborn child.

    And I understand the "where do you draw the line" argument. But eating deli meat isn't illegal under any circumstance. I see no realistic parallel between that and using (unprescribed) drugs.



    Consuming alcohol isn't illegal in America, but we can (and do!) criminally prosecute women who give birth to babies with FAS (fetal alcohol syndrome). We do that because FAS is something that can be proven. But if that same woman were to miscarry the pregnancy instead of giving birth to a FAS baby, it can never be proven what caused the miscarriage. We are not medically advanced enough to ever know the exact cause of a miscarriage. We can only speak in probabilities. And probabilities shouldn't be enough to put people in jail. Guilty beyond the shadow of a doubt is what this country was built on.

    The crime committed isn't having miscarried. The crime committed, in the state of Mississippi, is having drugged or drank while pregnant.

    That's not the law
    Mississippi's manslaughter laws were not intended to apply in cases of stillbirths and miscarriages. Four times between 1998 through 2002, Mississippi lawmakers rejected proposals that would have set specific penalties for damaging a fetus by using illegal drugs during pregnancy. But Mississippi prosecutors say that two other state laws allow them to charge Buckhalter
  • YoshimiYoshimi Posts: 237Registered Users
    Again, delivering a baby w/ FASD isn't the crime. It's the drinking that caused the baby to develop that condition.[/QUOTE]

    But it's only in those instances of fas where it can be proven.

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