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Re: dogs in neighborhoods

irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
I'm looking for other opinions, maybe suggestions...I'm hoping people with rescue dogs, specifically those like claudine who have rehabilitated dogs, will weigh in.

I live in a large neighborhood, but we're thickly settled. Its a community of townhouses grouped in sets of 2 - 4 to a 'building' so its set up like houses with lawn in between 'buildings' and sidewalks and stuff. We're set between wooded areas so there are hiking trails. There are about 250 some odd units, so its a big neighborhood. One woman has a rescue dog. A boxer that was apparently abused by its former owner. I feel this dog is very unpredictable. He freezes on the spot when I walk by and stares at me and the walker can clearly not move him until I've well passed. She usually crosses the street with the dog when she walks, but its not a big street. He has lunged at me a couple of times and the owner has had to pull him back. Usually I notice her get very focused straight ahead and shorten the leash when she is going to pass as if she's anticipating needing to control him better.

This is a big dog. I feel bad that the poor thing was abused but not to the point of compromising my or my children's safety. There are a lot of families, children, small dogs, etc in this neighborhood. I don't think any of these people walking the dog could actually control him if he felt threatened and acted. He has lunged at one of my neighbors and she talked w the owner and the owner told her that their two dogs had to be walked separately bc the male will attack if given the chance. Apparently he has attacked the owner a few times. This is scary to me living in such a community neighborhood.

Okay. I think thats it. Thoughts?
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Comments

  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,258Registered Users
    I don't think there's anything you can do about it. As long as she's keeping the dog on a leash, she's within the law. Check the ordinances of your local government though. They're often online and easy to find.
  • claudine19claudine19 Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    Hmmmm.

    I would like to think this one over.
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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,495Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    What do you think a good remedy would be?

  • NelekeNeleke Posts: 456Registered Users
    ofcourse you couldn't ask to "kill" the dog (and I'm pretty sure that isn't what you would want either) but I can understand your fears. The dog has to be walked though... Can't you ask the owner if there is a possibility to walk the dog with a muzzle? That seems reasonable for me...
    It doesn't really hurt the dog (is a bit uncomfortable probably), the dog can still walk, you (and other people) will probably be less afraid since even if the walker can't hold him at least he can't bite you... probably the owner will be a bit less afraid to pass someone as well since the dog isn't really "dangerous" anymore when he has a muzzle on...
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  • Laura LeeLaura Lee Posts: 1,828Registered Users
    Is there some kind of home owners association you could bring the matter up with? If the fear is shared by others in the neighborhood, an HOA would probably be able to approach her and ask her to take some kind of additional safety assurances
  • claudine19claudine19 Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    pm'd you.
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  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    Oh God no I wouldn't want them putting the dog down. I'd really even hate for her to have to rehome him, but it is a condominium complex so I think the situation is different in termd of owning such a dog.

    I really don't know what to do about it.
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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,258Registered Users
    You could suggest an anti-pulling collar or harness to her. It would stop the dog from pulling and lunging and give the impression that the dog is safe and under control. Gentle Leader makes a most excellent collar that prevents lunging and pulling and harness which prevents pulling. I have both for my pullers, and they work great. She would be a much happier dog owner.

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  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    She actually does have him in a harness. He's just big, and I imagine strong and for whatever reason, intimidated by some people.

    I have noticed them bringing him to walk in paths in the woods. But they still loop around the complex.

    When people walk by I see the owner constantly distracting him with treats and making him refocus. I think she's had this dog quite a few years. I would think she'd be past this training point. .

    I don't know. I can't think of a solution. I wrote an email to the property management ppl complaining, but I'm not sure what they can do either.
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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,258Registered Users
    Regular harnesses actually encourage pulling. The Gentle Leader collar and harness have a special mechanism to discourage it. Sounds like you arent able to speak to her directly...so I doubt you can do anything. Just hope she's always able to keep a good hold on him.
  • jeepcurlygurljeepcurlygurl Posts: 19,238Registered Users Curl Dabbler
    ditto, everyone else's suggestions and thoughts.

    This isn't at all helpful but there is really no way of knowing when or if a dog will bite. All dogs can bite. Small, large, wild, trained, loved, abused, every breed. My nephew had to have facial reconstruction surgery after a family lab, who he had known his whole childhood, bit him on the face when he accidentally stepped on his foot. This was a stable, trained, loved, family dog. I've been around dogs my whole life and have been bitten twice. Both were family dogs that I knew well. You just never know.
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  • jeepcurlygurljeepcurlygurl Posts: 19,238Registered Users Curl Dabbler
    dp
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  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    Regular harnesses actually encourage pulling. The Gentle Leader collar and harness have a special mechanism to discourage it. Sounds like you arent able to speak to her directly...so I doubt you can do anything. Just hope she's always able to keep a good hold on him.

    No, she's not chatty. She told us not to talk to her while she's walking her dogs. Her husband told me his dog would eat my cat. I don't exactly keep on friendly terms with them.
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  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    ditto, everyone else's suggestions and thoughts.

    This isn't at all helpful but there is really no way of knowing when or if a dog will bite. All dogs can bite. Small, large, wild, trained, loved, abused, every breed. My nephew had to have facial reconstruction surgery after a family lab, who he had known his whole childhood, bit him on the face when he accidentally stepped on his foot. This was a stable, trained, loved, family dog. I've been around dogs my whole life and have been bitten twice. Both were family dogs that I knew well. You just never know.

    Thats true, I know. Usually dogs give off a vibe if they want you touching them or not. This one gives off a scary vibe.

    I'm a little leary of some dogs anyway so I'm extra cautious.

    At this point I'll just leave my complaint out there. They probably won't do anything if its just me but if many others complain or have issues, mine is out there too.
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  • YoshimiYoshimi Posts: 237Registered Users
    Ok, I used to have a 70lb pitbull who would pull a lot and would have seemed scary to anyone seeing him when he was on one of his panics, I now have a 50lb pit who has a problem with other dogs ever since double hip surgery left him feeling very vulnerable. I'm only 120lb.

    There have been many situations where these dogs have lunged (usually at ducks or other prey type animals in the park) and not once have I been unable to control these dogs, I have even controlled them both together. I can see why you may think that this woman is unable to control the dog, but it is far more doable than people unfamiliar with dogs like this may think.

    The fact that she doesn't want you talking to her, crosses the road, and shortens the leash when walking with the dog tells me that she is very aware of the dogs behaviour and is in control of the situation. It takes time for dogs like this to be re trained, and interaction with other people when put walking may not be helpful at this stage in the rehabilitation. One of the biggest obsticals when dealing with dogs like this is controlling other people and their animals (other people's off leash dogs are a huge issue for instance, as are parents who allow their children to approach any dog without asking).

    If it were me I would try and approach this woman when she isn't stressed and out with the dog (because I would bet that she is far more stressed and concerned for everyone's safety than you are) and ask her how she would like you and any children to be around the dog to maintain everyone's safety and help in the dogs rehabilitation.

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  • RedCatWavesRedCatWaves Posts: 31,258Registered Users
    You could carry dog biscuits in your pocket when you go walking...very handy to give to dogs who rush up on you. That's what my postguy does.
  • mrspoppersmrspoppers Posts: 7,223Registered Users
    If you didn't put in your note to the management company that the husband said the dog would eat your cat and the wife told you not to talk to her when she's walking him, I would document that. If the dog were to bite someone, the fact that they knew he was dangerous would not work in their favor.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like these people have an appropriate living situation for this dog. While your goal is not to make them get rid of the dog somehow, I don't think you should let this drop. If their dog is aggressive, they simply should not take him out in public. Yes, dogs need exercise, but the entire complex shouldn't suffer so that could happen. If that means they need to rehome the dog, so be it. They really should have thought of this before rescuing an aggressive dog. I'm actually surprised a rescue let them have an aggressive dog in this type of living situation.
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  • YoshimiYoshimi Posts: 237Registered Users
    I'm really curious what you think makes these people bad owners Mrs poppers, and what you would say is an ideal environment? Do those of us who work with dogs needing rehabilitation need to life 30 miles from civilization? Wouldn't most dogs attack a cat if given a chance? Would you prefer these people lied or pretended that their dog didn't have issues.

    I might agree with you if this dog were running loose around the complex, but it sounds like these people are actually trying to keep others in the neighborhood safe. It's very unfair to cause them trouble because you may be unfamiliar with dogs, especially large rescues.

    It's attitudes like this that lead to people being unable to rescue, leaving more dogs to be put to sleep because the peaople with the skills and desire to help them are vilified by nimbys (yes please rescu a dog but Not In My Back Yard)

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  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    mrspoppers wrote: »
    If you didn't put in your note to the management company that the husband said the dog would eat your cat and the wife told you not to talk to her when she's walking him, I would document that. If the dog were to bite someone, the fact that they knew he was dangerous would not work in their favor.

    Unfortunately, it doesn't sound like these people have an appropriate living situation for this dog. While your goal is not to make them get rid of the dog somehow, I don't think you should let this drop. If their dog is aggressive, they simply should not take him out in public. Yes, dogs need exercise, but the entire complex shouldn't suffer so that could happen. If that means they need to rehome the dog, so be it. They really should have thought of this before rescuing an aggressive dog. I'm actually surprised a rescue let them have an aggressive dog in this type of living situation.


    This pretty much sums up how I feel.

    I know howuch pets become part of your family, so I don't think I'm being insensitive, but I don't think a condo complex full of families and small children with no private yard for dogs to run is the best situation for a large aggressive dog. Its not fair to compromise the rest of the residents.

    I did document that information. The property manager got back to me and said bc they weren't breaking any regulations (which pretty much cover leashing) he cant act yet. Which I anticipated. But he said he would forward the information to the condo association for them to keep on file.

    Which is okay. At least its a start. I just hope she is able to control him at all times. As I've said, I don't believe a person can always control a dog if they go into attack mode. There are also several 'walkers' who are not the owners who walk him in the neighborhood and I am even less confident about them.
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  • CGNYCCGNYC Posts: 4,937Registered Users
    Yoshimi wrote: »
    I'm really curious what you think makes these people bad owners Mrs poppers, and what you would say is an ideal environment? Do those of us who work with dogs needing rehabilitation need to life 30 miles from civilization? Wouldn't most dogs attack a cat if given a chance? Would you prefer these people lied or pretended that their dog didn't have issues.

    I might agree with you if this dog were running loose around the complex, but it sounds like these people are actually trying to keep others in the neighborhood safe. It's very unfair to cause them trouble because you may be unfamiliar with dogs, especially large rescues.

    It's attitudes like this that lead to people being unable to rescue, leaving more dogs to be put to sleep because the peaople with the skills and desire to help them are vilified by nimbys (yes please rescu a dog but Not In My Back Yard)

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    Lucky for all involved, there are a lot of options between densely populated complex and thirty miles from civilization. A heavily populated complex is no place to rehab a potentially aggressive dog. It just isn't. I'm sorry if you or they feel it's your life's work to rehab animals, but you just can't make that work in an apartment complex. I'd like a herd of goats but that won't work here in the 'burbs. Life's like that.

    These people don't have to lie or pretend, but they don't have to rehab dogs either. Sometimes what you want to do and what you can do are just not the same thing.

    Dangerous dogs that outweigh their minders and can drag them around just don't belong in an apartment complex. It's a very bad accident waiting to happen.

    I also can't recommend ignoring a situation because maybe possibly the woman is in better control than she appears to be. Again, horrible accident waiting to happen. We already know she can't move the dog if it freezes on the spot and the man has said the other will attack given the chance. How much more evidence do you need? These dogs need more space to themselves.

    I am a dog person. I think people who dog rescues are fantastic, but you have to use common sense. This is just not a good situation.
  • YoshimiYoshimi Posts: 237Registered Users
    And if this dog was tryely showing signs of aggression then I might agree with you, but it sounds more like a case of someone who is unfamiliar with bug dogs nit being comfortable with having one around.

    I have had someone try to report me to animal control and have my dog taken away from me, because they saw me in the elevator of my apartment building on my way out for a walk when my dog was over excited (as we had another dog there to go for a walk with him). No one tried to talk to me, or ask about the situation, they simply called my landlord and told him that they were calling animal control as I was "unable to control my animal". Luckily ky landlord knew me and my dog and explained the situation to this individual. Had things nit gone the way they had I expect my dog would have been put to sleep because of this single complaint in the area I was in.
    There are plenty of solutions other than deciding that this dog shouldn't be on a populated area, but fear and judgement seem to cloud people thoughts far too often with big dogs, and so far I haven't seen anything that suggests this dog is a danger, or that the owners aren't taking any precaution.

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  • CGNYCCGNYC Posts: 4,937Registered Users
    I am pretty sure if you look in the first post, the OP says the man has told her one dog will attack, the other will kill cats, the lady has asked her not to speak to her when she's walking the dog...they've pretty much said the dogs are dangerous.

    Honestly, it shouldn't be up to everyone else to just not be scared or trust the person the dog is dragging around knows what he or she is doing. If your dog is barking and lunging, even if you think you have things under control, you don't. Control would involve not letting the dog bark and lunge. If your animal is jumping and being scary, it's on you to control that situation, not on everyone else to just assume that maybe, possibly you've got it. I'm not going to get on an elevator with my small child or dog just because the person on the other end of the lunging, barking dog's leash tells me it's ok. Someone told me their barking dog was "just being friendly" seconds before it attacked my dog when he was a puppy. Dogs that are under control don't bark and lunge.
  • jeepcurlygurljeepcurlygurl Posts: 19,238Registered Users Curl Dabbler
    A large dog that lunges and pulls hard on it's leash? Not necessarily aggressive. A dog owner telling me not to talk to them while they are walking their dog? A dog owner crossing the street when someone else is walking their dog and saying that their dog doesn't like other dogs? No change in a dog's behavior after a couple years? A dog owner telling me that their dog would eat my cat? I find that very aggressive and I think you should make sure the authorities know all of this.
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  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    Yoshimi, I do appreciate your input, because I did want all opinions, but you exhibit much of the attitude these owners do, that bc you rescue 'big' dogs, you have things under control and I shouldn't worry.

    I believe that is false. You have a false sense of control. A large, strong, threatened dog that goes on attack cannot be controlled by a typical woman walking it. It is not the same as a dog going after a bird or a squirrel.

    Maybe you're right. Maybe I don't know the behavior of large dogs. But I don't have to, I don't own one. What I do know is the difference between a dog lunging at me bc he's excited and wants to be pet and a dog who lunges at me for threatening reasons. This dog isnt just pulling while walking, he's completely disobeying his owners commands. Its not a safe environment to assume the person has control and 'hope' she doesn't...lose her grip? Get pulled too hard and trip and lose the leash? Dog somehow gets unhooked? Dog accidentally gets out of the house? Any one of these things CAN happen.

    I don't have an issue with my neighbors doberman, or the man walking his German Shepherd, or the man walking the large lab. I had no problem pulling over and coaxing a lab unleashed and walking down the street when I thought he was lost. Dog or no dog, I am an animal person. I can recognize the temperament of an animal and act accordingly.

    A large dog that has been known to attack (even his owner) should not be kept and frequently walked in a condo complex that is home to many children. It is an accident waiting to happen.
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  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    A large dog that lunges and pulls hard on it's leash? Not necessarily aggressive. A dog owner telling me not to talk to them while they are walking their dog? A dog owner crossing the street when someone else is walking their dog and saying that their dog doesn't like other dogs? No change in a dog's behavior after a couple years? A dog owner telling me that their dog would eat my cat? I find that very aggressive and I think you should make sure the authorities know all of this.


    I know, I did think about calling the police but I'm not sure if there's enough to go on. Ill have to think about it. I hate to say 'I'll see if it happens again' and that 'again' is when someone gets bit.

    And I'm afraid to say something to her bc I imagine she would get defensive and the dog would sense that. I'm scared enough of him as it is!

    My neighbor w the Doberman said she even avoids that dog bc he's scary. She had to go to the womans house once and the woman told her she had to lock this dog in the othee room bc he would attack her.

    Her reason is that the dogs previous abusive owner was a woman w short dark hair - which my neighbor and I have.
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  • mrspoppersmrspoppers Posts: 7,223Registered Users
    Yoshimi wrote: »
    I'm really curious what you think makes these people bad owners Mrs poppers, and what you would say is an ideal environment? Do those of us who work with dogs needing rehabilitation need to life 30 miles from civilization? Wouldn't most dogs attack a cat if given a chance? Would you prefer these people lied or pretended that their dog didn't have issues.

    I might agree with you if this dog were running loose around the complex, but it sounds like these people are actually trying to keep others in the neighborhood safe. It's very unfair to cause them trouble because you may be unfamiliar with dogs, especially large rescues.

    It's attitudes like this that lead to people being unable to rescue, leaving more dogs to be put to sleep because the peaople with the skills and desire to help them are vilified by nimbys (yes please rescu a dog but Not In My Back Yard)
    First and foremost, I never said the dog owners are "bad owners." I said they have an inappropriate living situation for rescuing an aggressive dog. I'm not going to get into why I believe the dog is aggressive because CGNYC and JeepCurlyGurl covered that pretty well.

    I understand rescuing dogs that need rehab. I think it's great that people do it and in no way do I believe they need to live 30 miles from civilization. (Again with putting words in my mouth. Never said it.) In fact, I rescued a dog that needed (and still needs) rehab and I live in the city. I guess that's why I'm critical of anyone who would rescue an AGGRESSIVE dog and expect to keep it in a condo without a yard to train it in.

    The first thing a professional trainer said to me was that there are some dogs that can't be walked in public and to get over the idea that it's a necessary thing. Some dogs need to stay home in their own yard because they are too (anxious, aggressive, fearful, etc. Insert word here) to be in public where they might act out. However, if you rescue a dog that shouldn't go into public (be it temporarily or permanently), you need somewhere for the poor thing to go.
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  • NelekeNeleke Posts: 456Registered Users
    again: why don't you ask them to walk the dog with a muzzle on?
    Even if they can't hold him, he's not going to bite you or the children... yes he might run against you, but that won't be that dangerous....(you don't have to ask that when they are walking their dog, obviously)

    I have a situation in my street that I believe is far more dangerous. A couple of houses away from me (and I live like 300 meters away from a school full of 2year-12year old children) there live a big fearsome dog who always barks quite loudly and runs to you as if he is going to attack you (showing his teeth, in an attacking position). The huge problem is: the dog lives in a house (and yard) with a fence, but the owners keep on forgetting to close the fence, even if the dog is outside... so if you are passing (just walking on the walking pavement, not on "his territory) the dog can just leave his yard and attack you... It already has been 4 times this month that I was cycling to the trainstation (and luckily I cycle fast) and that the fence wasn't closed AND the dog was outside and running to me in attacking modus...
    Oh and the owners train him to defend their property (they throw wooden blocks at him to train him to be more aggressive)...
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  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    I'm not going to ask them anything. Like I've said, they're rude and not interested in hearing other ppls opinions. I don't want to talk to her and get her feeling defensive while she's walking that dog. I just want to walk by without getting attacked.

    I keep to myself and dont usually get into neighbors business so i dont really talk to them. This just happens to effect me.
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  • CurlyCanadianCurlyCanadian Posts: 10,771Registered Users Curl Dabbler
    Neleke wrote: »
    again: why don't you ask them to walk the dog with a muzzle on?
    Even if they can't hold him, he's not going to bite you or the children... yes he might run against you, but that won't be that dangerous....(you don't have to ask that when they are walking their dog, obviously)

    I have a situation in my street that I believe is far more dangerous. A couple of houses away from me (and I live like 300 meters away from a school full of 2year-12year old children) there live a big fearsome dog who always barks quite loudly and runs to you as if he is going to attack you (showing his teeth, in an attacking position). The huge problem is: the dog lives in a house (and yard) with a fence, but the owners keep on forgetting to close the fence, even if the dog is outside... so if you are passing (just walking on the walking pavement, not on "his territory) the dog can just leave his yard and attack you... It already has been 4 times this month that I was cycling to the trainstation (and luckily I cycle fast) and that the fence wasn't closed AND the dog was outside and running to me in attacking modus...
    Oh and the owners train him to defend their property (they throw wooden blocks at him to train him to be more aggressive)...

    Have you called animal control? Are you waiting for him to catch you first?
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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,495Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Some ppl are so damn inconsiderate! They have aggressive dogs and they know the dogs are aggressive and they continue to subject everyone else to the risks they pose.

    I hope you continue to warn your kids to avoid the dog!

    I lived in a townhouse complex for a while when I had a dog (which resembled a pit but was a boxer/chow mix). My dog would always bark hysterically when ppl and dogs would walk behind our fenced-in patio.

    At one point someone else living on the other side of the complex get fed up that my dog would bark and scare her while she was walking her disabed dog behind my unit everyday...and she called the cops on me, after berating me.

    So the cop came and me and my dog were outside waiting for the him. Yes, my dog was hyper but totally friendly toward the cop and everyone else milling around outside waiting for the drama to jump off. So the cop just rolled his eyes and left.

    And I decided right after that incident that I needed to just go ahead and buy my first house bc I do kinda feel that apt/condo/townhouse living really isn't ideal except for in the case of small/docile/inactive dogs.

    So yeah, maybe calling the cops could help. If the cop judged the dog to aggressive, maybe he/she could force some kind of change.

    I would call the nonemergency number tho and just explain the situation. I once called the nonemergency number once on someone else's dog that was mean and unleashed and the cop got there fast. And when the woman in my complex called on me, the cop got there fast too, tho IDK if she called 911 or nonemergency.

    I would def call. Cops are meant to keep the peace and living near somone w/ an unstable, aggressive dog isn't my idea of peace, esp when you have young kids.

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