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Medical coding as a career?

MCoons91MCoons91 Posts: 70Registered Users
Is there anyone here who works in medical coding? Its a job I've been thinking a lot about. I am currently in school for an associates in administrative office technology, but I've been thinking a lot about earning a certification in that. I just need information and insight of any can provide it. Thank you!
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  • curlypearlcurlypearl Posts: 11,970Registered Users Curl Novice
    I'm not in it but if I were younger, (I'm 67) I would definitely pursue it. I like to work on a computer by myself, I'm careful with details, and I'm interested in medical issues. Does this sound like you - would you enjoy that?

    Also, all of the medically related fields are supposed to be good areas to choose for careers in the next decade or so. Good luck with this and hopefully, someone who is already in the field will chime in.
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  • PoPo Posts: 2,607Registered Users
    I was just talking to a co-worker about this 15 mins ago. We are both social workers and were commiserating on the low-pay. Her sister works in medical coding and gets paid $25/hr. All you need is a certificate.
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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,495Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Is medical coding the same as medical transcription?

  • VTmomVTmom Posts: 2,486Registered Users
    Is medical coding the same as medical transcription?
    I was wondering the same thing.
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  • curlypearlcurlypearl Posts: 11,970Registered Users Curl Novice
    Spider, they are different.

    Med. transcription is typing into a computer (like into WORD) notes from a doctor that he or she dictated into a dictating machine like Dictaphone.

    Medical coding is assigning a code from a book for each type of medical procedure that has been performed. The code is entered onto insurance forms. There is a large book that has thousands of codes - each one corresponds to the type of procedure. The medical professional (doctor usually) writes down the procedure and the coder looks up the code and enters it on the insurance form.

    Hope that helps!
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  • PoPo Posts: 2,607Registered Users
    And we need better medical coders.

    I can't count the number of times I've gotten an outrageous bill because it wasn't coded correctly!
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  • JosephineJosephine Posts: 14,175Registered Users
    I worked for a medical coding software company and was actually taking classes there to get certified. I understand you can make good money and can work from home and contract easily. The profession is dominantly female and traditionally not very foward in technology(but that's sort of common in the medical field in general) but of course that's changing.

    Personally it's boring to me but if you don't mind it, it seems like a good thing to get into and especially if you are good at it. It seems like there is a demand for good coders as most are just average.
  • SystemSystem Posts: 39,059 Administrator
    VTmom wrote: »
    Is medical coding the same as medical transcription?
    I was wondering the same thing.

    No. Medical coding is putting in a description of the pt's illness or procedure into an ICD-9 code or CPT that the insurance codes. Medical Transcription is listening to the doctor's recordings of the patient's visit and transferring it to a type account of the events.

    ETA: You have to be super careful about doing medical coding from home because not all doctor's are totally ethical and they want any claim up coded so they can collect as much as possible. You personally will be responsible for any fraud (even if you don't realize it) committed. Not all doctor's office are ethical.
  • SystemSystem Posts: 39,059 Administrator
    Your best bet is to read the Medicare manual and see exactly what codes are accepted and what level of care is given. Chapter 10 is the best to read. I do ambulance billing but the really difference is that we do not use CPT codes or exact diagnosis codes. Ambulance is considered ground transport and does fall under a different category (we are neither in or out of network) but it's basically the same.

    Most insurances based their allowed amount off the Medicare Fee Schedule.
  • JosephineJosephine Posts: 14,175Registered Users
    Speckla wrote: »
    VTmom wrote: »
    Is medical coding the same as medical transcription?
    I was wondering the same thing.

    No. Medical coding is putting in a description of the pt's illness or procedure into an ICD-9 code or CPT that the insurance codes. Medical Transcription is listening to the doctor's recordings of the patient's visit and transferring it to a type account of the events.

    ETA: You have to be super careful about doing medical coding from home because not all doctor's are totally ethical and they want any claim up coded so they can collect as much as possible. You personally will be responsible for any fraud (even if you don't realize it) committed. Not all doctor's office are ethical.

    But what does that have to do with working from home? That happens onsite as well. I'm assuming you follow the transcript and if the transcript is a lie, is it the coder's fault too?
  • SystemSystem Posts: 39,059 Administrator
    Josephine wrote: »
    Speckla wrote: »
    VTmom wrote: »
    I was wondering the same thing.

    No. Medical coding is putting in a description of the pt's illness or procedure into an ICD-9 code or CPT that the insurance codes. Medical Transcription is listening to the doctor's recordings of the patient's visit and transferring it to a type account of the events.

    ETA: You have to be super careful about doing medical coding from home because not all doctor's are totally ethical and they want any claim up coded so they can collect as much as possible. You personally will be responsible for any fraud (even if you don't realize it) committed. Not all doctor's office are ethical.

    But what does that have to do with working from home? That happens onsite as well. I'm assuming you follow the transcript and if the transcript is a lie, is it the coder's fault too?

    The difference is that at home you are responsible for what is put in. In an office setting you have higher ups that have to answer for what is produced. In a office it is pretty cut and dry because there is literature and specific procedures to follow. It isn't so much at home and the blame is placed on the biller and not the institution.

    Transcription and medical coding are totally different. Transcription is word for word what the doctor says. Medical coding is partially the billers perspective of what is happening. Billing is tricky and coding is worse. I have been doing this for the past 8 years and I am currently in school to get my degree in medical billing and coding.
  • SystemSystem Posts: 39,059 Administrator
    Let me add thought that I do third party ambulance billing and we are the redheaded stepchild of the billing world. The basic thing is that you only bill what was done. I see the information that the medics report and they don't diagnosis so it's 'possible' but doctors can give an exact diagnosis but you really don't know if they're up coding or what.
  • curlypearlcurlypearl Posts: 11,970Registered Users Curl Novice
    Wow! This is so much more complicated than I had imagined. Goes to show - jobs are so often much more complex and difficult than we realize.
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  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    I actually work as a coding quality/education manager for a hospital system. Yes, it can be a great field with lots of opportunity, but it's definitely not for everyone. It really takes a very specific personality- your work is potentially scrutinized by multiple people, many of whom might have differing opinions on whether or not you're correct, the codes change regularly, the rules change regularly, the interpretation of the rules changes regularly. The implications of incorrect coding can be as severe as causing huge financial loss for the physician or facility or jail time. But if you can handle constant change, constant pressure an constant constructive criticism, and have a good eye for detail, it could've a good fit.
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  • Lucky CharmLucky Charm Posts: 1,250Registered Users
    I just finished my internship in medical coding. I'll be receiving my school certificate shortly and need to test for national certification very soon. There is lots of great info in the above posts, but I would also suggest that you take a look at the AAPC and AHIMA websites and their forums.

    I have always loved the medical field, but for several reasons I couldn't be a nurse/PA/etc even if I wanted to (which I would!). I previously went to college for art, received my BFA, then realized my heart wasn't truly in it. My DH suggested I look into coding since he has a friend in the field and he knows how much I love medical - I loved it from the start.
    Another big draw to coding was the potential to work from home - I've mentioned before that I am an introvert, so just let me work, don't bother me, let me figure out the details and I'll do just fine!
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  • MCoons91MCoons91 Posts: 70Registered Users
    Thanks for all the information! I learned quite a bit. I didn't realize though how much could go wrong. Something to think about. The medical field interests me but I can't be someone who actually handles patients like a doctor or nurse. I'd rather work behind the scenes. I have heard good things about this career other than what's been pointed out here though. So I agree it probably takes a special person and you genuinely have to be interested. Which I think I am. I'll just have to learn as much as possible.

    Sent from my DROID RAZR using CurlTalk App
    Mostly 2B with 2C elements and quite a few random 3A corkscrews in my underneath layer. Re-tested my hair porosity and it is now low. I have fairly dense, medium thick hair.

    Use: Shea Moisture Raw shampoo and conditioner, co-wash w/ suave naturals coconut, aussie ausome volume mousse and Herbal essence totally twisted gel.
  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    I didn't mean to sound snarky in my last post, so I apologize if it came across that way. I tend to be very apprehensive when people start asking about coding as a means to work from home, or make more money, or work regular hours because of everything else that goes with it (I get asked regularly by people who know I'm a manger and some of them are people I know well enough to know I would never want them working as a coder in my facility). I'm also the person who has to try to appeal when Medicare decides to take back money. And as an internal auditor and educator I regularly deal with coders who believe that they already know it all and who still code the way they did 10 years ago. But don't get me wrong, I enjoy what I do. I just try to warn people to make sure they enter the field for the right reasons. As mentioned previously, AHIMA and AAPC have tons of information, and the vast majority of facilities and companies require a coding credential from one of these two organizations. The CPC (through AAPC) is the easier credential to sit for- I can't comment on the test because I went straight for my CCS through AHIMA, but they've made the testing eligibility requirements much more stringent in the last year or two, so you really can't earn a CCS without real world experience. But your first challenge is surviving A&P. :)
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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,495Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Fascinating! I didn't know any of this.

  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    Fascinating! I didn't know any of this.

    Whenever I meet someone and they ask me what I do for work, I always preface my answer with a comment along the lines of "I work in a field that most people have never hear of, so I'm not going to be offended if you don't low what it is..." I'm more surprised when I talk to someone who IS familiar with it.
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  • JosephineJosephine Posts: 14,175Registered Users
    Corrina777 wrote: »
    Fascinating! I didn't know any of this.

    Whenever I meet someone and they ask me what I do for work, I always preface my answer with a comment along the lines of "I work in a field that most people have never hear of, so I'm not going to be offended if you don't low what it is..." I'm more surprised when I talk to someone who IS familiar with it.

    Stupid question but do you use software or the actual books?
  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    I use a combination of both, which is what I also see with the best coders I know. Encoders (coding and grouping software) can be very helpful, but they are definitely not a substitute for knowing how to use the books. In fact, especially when I'm dealing with CPT codes, I would rather use my book than the encoder on a difficult case because encoders are created by people and they only work if you follow the logic of the programmer who created it. My facility uses 3M, which is known as the Bentley of encoders, but I've still found places where the encoder logic will lead to the completely wrong set of procedure codes if you aren't careful. Basically, you have to know the books well enough to make sure the encoder is leading you where you want to go.
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  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,495Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I can't believe how involved this is!

    Can you humor me here? Say I go to the ob/gyn, and I have an annual pap test (the new digital kind of reading), a manual pelvic exam, a manual breast exam and a mammogram.

    What would you receive in the way of a transcript or a report or what? And what would the result of your work look like?

  • JosephineJosephine Posts: 14,175Registered Users
    Corrina777 wrote: »
    I use a combination of both, which is what I also see with the best coders I know. Encoders (coding and grouping software) can be very helpful, but they are definitely not a substitute for knowing how to use the books. In fact, especially when I'm dealing with CPT codes, I would rather use my book than the encoder on a difficult case because encoders are created by people and they only work if you follow the logic of the programmer who created it. My facility uses 3M, which is known as the Bentley of encoders, but I've still found places where the encoder logic will lead to the completely wrong set of procedure codes if you aren't careful. Basically, you have to know the books well enough to make sure the encoder is leading you where you want to go.

    Okay, yes I definitely understand that but what about online/e-books? When you say you use the books I assume you mean the actual physical books. What if the book was online and you can search through it, which I'm confused as to why that's not more common. I'm assuming the books can be in pdf format and I don't understand why one would not use that instead of the books. Also there can be software that would make searching through the book faster and put everything online.

    Just trying to understand, we had a coder tell us that coders will always use physical books no matter what, but she never told us why.
  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    I can't believe how involved this is!

    Can you humor me here? Say I go to the ob/gyn, and I have an annual pap test (the new digital kind of reading), a manual pelvic exam, a manual breast exam and a mammogram.

    What would you receive in the way of a transcript or a report or what? And what would the result of your work look like?

    This is slightly out of my realm because I've never done physician coding (yes, it's that different from hospital coding), but I'll do my best. Most physicians offices work with what's called a superbill. You've probably seen it- it's a sheet, usually two-sided, and the doctor checks off boxes next to diagnoses (why you're being seen), and procedures (what was done). Technically there should be some kind of progress note in your chart (paper or electronic) that details the encounter more. A good coder will verify that the documentation in your chart matches the superbill, and that is technically the correct process. I cannot vouch that this is always the case. The coder should also see copies of the lab results from the pap and the transcribed radiology report for the mammo. I'm not at work today, so I can't give you exact codes ATM (I just tested for my black belt Friday and Saturday and took today to recover). Annual exams will generally be reported with a diagnosis code that starts with a V (regular yearly physical is V70.0, I'm not sure what the gyn exam code is). There would be an additional code to justify the mammo (a normal screening would be V76.12, if the mammo was ordered because your doctor felt a lump, it would be 611.72 instead). If you have a family history if breast cancer, that would also be reported because it changes the mammo from routine screening to high risk screening). Any other findings documented by your physician would also be coded (diabetes, hypertension, etc). Coding cannot be based on nurse's notes, so if your nurse writes that you're overweight but the doctor doesn't mention it, it doesn't exist). For the procedures, physicians only use CPT code. Im sure there is a specific CPT code for the annual exam (it will be 5 digits and begin with a 9), an depending on how much of an exam the dr does aside from that, there could possibly be a separate E/M code (these are the general office visit codes, based on how extensive your exam is). Depending on where you get the mammo done, in their office or elsewhere, will determine who codes and bills for the mammo procedure (also a 5 character code- it can be a numerical code that starts with a 7 or an alphanumeric code that starts with a G, depending on payer requirements (Medicare sometimes requires the use of HCPCS codes rather than traditional CPT codes for certain services). There can also be additional codes if the mammo was more than just a very basic mammo). In addition, you will be billed for the laboratory piece of evaluating the Pap smear. If your doctor's office sends it out to a full lab, like Quest or LabCorp, they will bill you separately (lab, pathology, cytology codes are all 5 digit CPT codes that start with 8).
    I apologize that I couldn't give you more specifics, but hopefully this gives you an idea (I'm working at another hospital tomorrow, but will be back at my own desk on Wed and would be happy to provide more specifics then, if you're interested).
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  • sakiohmasakiohma Posts: 104Registered Users
    I'm so happy you made this thread! I work as a CNA now and I was going to advance to become a nurse, but, after working with people on a daily basis, I'm not sure if I want to anymore. Customer service and working with the public is just so draining. Then I learned about medical coding and transcriptionist and learned that you can work from home and I was sold.

    But I also heard it is hard to find a job in both fields. Is that true? Also, which field is best to go in to: coding or transcribing?

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  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    Josephine wrote: »
    Corrina777 wrote: »
    I use a combination of both, which is what I also see with the best coders I know. Encoders (coding and grouping software) can be very helpful, but they are definitely not a substitute for knowing how to use the books. In fact, especially when I'm dealing with CPT codes, I would rather use my book than the encoder on a difficult case because encoders are created by people and they only work if you follow the logic of the programmer who created it. My facility uses 3M, which is known as the Bentley of encoders, but I've still found places where the encoder logic will lead to the completely wrong set of procedure codes if you aren't careful. Basically, you have to know the books well enough to make sure the encoder is leading you where you want to go.

    Okay, yes I definitely understand that but what about online/e-books? When you say you use the books I assume you mean the actual physical books. What if the book was online and you can search through it, which I'm confused as to why that's not more common. I'm assuming the books can be in pdf format and I don't understand why one would not use that instead of the books. Also there can be software that would make searching through the book faster and put everything online.

    Just trying to understand, we had a coder tell us that coders will always use physical books no matter what, but she never told us why.

    Our encoder does provide ICD-9 (and even ICD-10, which goes into effect October 1, 2014), but I completely agree with the statement about always using paper books. I use the electronic version when I'm working off-site because it's a hassle to carry a pile of code books around. But I've found that the electronic versions don't have all of the notes that are in the tabular itself (and I'm not sure that the AMA would be now enough to allow for easy electronic access to their CPT codes without a huge amount of cash in it for them). The other part is that most coders write lots of notes in their books, and I do t see that as something that can easily be done with an electronic version, especially when it comes to moving your notes into the new book every year. In ICD I can understand using an electronic book, if the coder had the ability to make notes and transfer those notes each year. But thats because ICD has a logical index. I cannot imagine ever being comfortable with an all electronic CPT book because I don't use the index (when I was taught coding, the coder who was teaching me literally said "This is the CPT index. Pretend it doesn't exist evaluate it's less than useless.") I code in CPT by flipping to the section (or to multiple sections if I'm unsure of which way to go with something). As I said in my last post, I don't use the encoder at all for difficult CPT coding cases- I can literally find it faster flipping through my book. My other concern, as a manger, is that I have a hard enough time making sure that some coders read the section notes in CPT when it's physically on the same page as the codes they're looking at. My experience with electronic books is that the screen shows less than a full page, and I know I should not have to worry about this, but I do worry that some coders will miss important information.
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  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    sakiohma wrote: »
    I'm so happy you made this thread! I work as a CNA now and I was going to advance to become a nurse, but, after working with people on a daily basis, I'm not sure if I want to anymore. Customer service and working with the public is just so draining. Then I learned about medical coding and transcriptionist and learned that you can work from home and I was sold.

    But I also heard it is hard to find a job in both fields. Is that true? Also, which field is best to go in to: coding or transcribing?

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    It is definitely becoming more difficult to get into coding, but at the same time, there is a huge demand for coders pretty much everywhere in the country, and the shortage is expected to get much worse over the next two years. The problem is that with the increased scrutiny on coding, most places have started to require a coding credential (not just taking a class, but sitting for one of the national tests). Because many facilities are working with a close to bare bone staff, most places are also requiring experience, which is the catch-22. I work in a facility that does have the ability to take people with a credential but no experience, but that's only because my position exists. Even a credentialed coder needs time to adjust to the computer systems, the style of the documentation, and learning how to code in the real world, where the documentation is often less than ideal. Based on my own experience, it takes about 4-6 weeks to get an inexperience coder up a running, compared with 1-2 weeks for someone with experience, so it can be very challenging to put that kind of time in.
    I can't speak to transcription at all, because it's the only area of HIM (Health Information Management) with which I have no experience. Which one is best is really more of a personal question. Each field has its pros and cons. I wrote more extensively about some of the things to consider before going into coding in one of my previous posts on this thread.
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  • JosephineJosephine Posts: 14,175Registered Users
    Corrina777 wrote: »
    Josephine wrote: »
    Corrina777 wrote: »
    I use a combination of both, which is what I also see with the best coders I know. Encoders (coding and grouping software) can be very helpful, but they are definitely not a substitute for knowing how to use the books. In fact, especially when I'm dealing with CPT codes, I would rather use my book than the encoder on a difficult case because encoders are created by people and they only work if you follow the logic of the programmer who created it. My facility uses 3M, which is known as the Bentley of encoders, but I've still found places where the encoder logic will lead to the completely wrong set of procedure codes if you aren't careful. Basically, you have to know the books well enough to make sure the encoder is leading you where you want to go.

    Okay, yes I definitely understand that but what about online/e-books? When you say you use the books I assume you mean the actual physical books. What if the book was online and you can search through it, which I'm confused as to why that's not more common. I'm assuming the books can be in pdf format and I don't understand why one would not use that instead of the books. Also there can be software that would make searching through the book faster and put everything online.

    Just trying to understand, we had a coder tell us that coders will always use physical books no matter what, but she never told us why.

    Our encoder does provide ICD-9 (and even ICD-10, which goes into effect October 1, 2014), but I completely agree with the statement about always using paper books. I use the electronic version when I'm working off-site because it's a hassle to carry a pile of code books around. But I've found that the electronic versions don't have all of the notes that are in the tabular itself (and I'm not sure that the AMA would be now enough to allow for easy electronic access to their CPT codes without a huge amount of cash in it for them). The other part is that most coders write lots of notes in their books, and I do t see that as something that can easily be done with an electronic version, especially when it comes to moving your notes into the new book every year. In ICD I can understand using an electronic book, if the coder had the ability to make notes and transfer those notes each year. But thats because ICD has a logical index. I cannot imagine ever being comfortable with an all electronic CPT book because I don't use the index (when I was taught coding, the coder who was teaching me literally said "This is the CPT index. Pretend it doesn't exist evaluate it's less than useless.") I code in CPT by flipping to the section (or to multiple sections if I'm unsure of which way to go with something). As I said in my last post, I don't use the encoder at all for difficult CPT coding cases- I can literally find it faster flipping through my book. My other concern, as a manger, is that I have a hard enough time making sure that some coders read the section notes in CPT when it's physically on the same page as the codes they're looking at. My experience with electronic books is that the screen shows less than a full page, and I know I should not have to worry about this, but I do worry that some coders will miss important information.

    Okay that makes sense. So far there are no complete soft versions of the ICD 9/10 books. If there was a way to enter notes on the soft copy and have them imported over to the new version (which I would think is easier than the other way) do you think people would be more likely to use it? Screen size would definitely matter, if you can't see everything on a screen or two that you can in a book I can see how stuff would be missed.

    I don't remember exactly how the CPT book was layed out but I still fail to see how it wouldn't be easier flipping through and electronic version.
  • SystemSystem Posts: 39,059 Administrator
    My initial post didn't even contain anything of what I intended to say. I have been doing medical coding and billing for nearly 8 years now and that's what I am in school for. It is a very involved job and it is helpful if you have a very good memory. I do not use CPT codes but I still have to have a course in them and I can see it as good knowledge to have. I can work in any hospital, doctors office, or medical fields that deals with billing or coding after I graduate. I have the job experience and the knowledge but I need the paperwork to back it up.

    And I sincerely apologize if my posts came off as argumentive or disagreeable. I love my job and I can do it well but I am not so great at describing it.
  • spiderlashes5000spiderlashes5000 Posts: 17,495Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Corrina777 wrote: »
    I can't believe how involved this is!

    Can you humor me here? Say I go to the ob/gyn, and I have an annual pap test (the new digital kind of reading), a manual pelvic exam, a manual breast exam and a mammogram.

    What would you receive in the way of a transcript or a report or what? And what would the result of your work look like?

    This is slightly out of my realm because I've never done physician coding (yes, it's that different from hospital coding), but I'll do my best. Most physicians offices work with what's called a superbill. You've probably seen it- it's a sheet, usually two-sided, and the doctor checks off boxes next to diagnoses (why you're being seen), and procedures (what was done). Technically there should be some kind of progress note in your chart (paper or electronic) that details the encounter more. A good coder will verify that the documentation in your chart matches the superbill, and that is technically the correct process. I cannot vouch that this is always the case. The coder should also see copies of the lab results from the pap and the transcribed radiology report for the mammo. I'm not at work today, so I can't give you exact codes ATM (I just tested for my black belt Friday and Saturday and took today to recover). Annual exams will generally be reported with a diagnosis code that starts with a V (regular yearly physical is V70.0, I'm not sure what the gyn exam code is). There would be an additional code to justify the mammo (a normal screening would be V76.12, if the mammo was ordered because your doctor felt a lump, it would be 611.72 instead). If you have a family history if breast cancer, that would also be reported because it changes the mammo from routine screening to high risk screening). Any other findings documented by your physician would also be coded (diabetes, hypertension, etc). Coding cannot be based on nurse's notes, so if your nurse writes that you're overweight but the doctor doesn't mention it, it doesn't exist). For the procedures, physicians only use CPT code. Im sure there is a specific CPT code for the annual exam (it will be 5 digits and begin with a 9), an depending on how much of an exam the dr does aside from that, there could possibly be a separate E/M code (these are the general office visit codes, based on how extensive your exam is). Depending on where you get the mammo done, in their office or elsewhere, will determine who codes and bills for the mammo procedure (also a 5 character code- it can be a numerical code that starts with a 7 or an alphanumeric code that starts with a G, depending on payer requirements (Medicare sometimes requires the use of HCPCS codes rather than traditional CPT codes for certain services). There can also be additional codes if the mammo was more than just a very basic mammo). In addition, you will be billed for the laboratory piece of evaluating the Pap smear. If your doctor's office sends it out to a full lab, like Quest or LabCorp, they will bill you separately (lab, pathology, cytology codes are all 5 digit CPT codes that start with 8).
    I apologize that I couldn't give you more specifics, but hopefully this gives you an idea (I'm working at another hospital tomorrow, but will be back at my own desk on Wed and would be happy to provide more specifics then, if you're interested).

    That was great. More than enough detail. I appreciate it. Never even considered the amt of work put in.

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