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death penalty

Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
For those opposed to the death penalty, would you support it for this guy if he was found guilty after a trial?
Woman killed, child raped in NY mall carjacking - Yahoo! News
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  • Laura LeeLaura Lee Posts: 1,828Registered Users
    No, I would not.

    My objections to capital punishment stem from the fact that it is more expensive than life imprisonment and that it's ability to deter future crimes cannot be firmly established. As this terrible crime happened in NY, which has not executed anyone since 1963 and whose highest court found its death penalty statute unconstitutional (state constitution), the prosecutor will not seek the death penalty
  • legendslegends Posts: 3,073Registered Users
    My only big issue with the death penalty is that I have zero faith in our justice system to actually give a damn if the person being executed is, in fact, guilty. Too many people have proven to be innocent while on death row or after execution. And even if that can be fixed, capital punishment should still be rare and saved for extreme cases.

    The guy in the story? I have zero moral qualms about him being put to death, IF he's truly guilty.
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  • poisonivypoisonivy Posts: 1,551Registered Users
    I would never be for the intentional killing of another human being for any reason for a variety of reasons.
  • irociroc Posts: 7,890Registered Users
    The problem I have with the death penalty is, as already stated, the possibility of convicting an innocent person. I also am conflicted on whether another human being should get to choose the fate of another.

    However, I do feel that if any crime deserves the death penalty, it should be the rape of a child. That is a sick person who cannot be fixed and should not be allowed to share the air the rest of the world breathes.


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  • NetGNetG Posts: 8,116Registered Users
    I'm not necessarily opposed to what would be considered cruel and unusual punishment, but am against humans determining if another human would live or die.

    Even the idea of the capture/murder of Osama bin Laden turned my stomach at the execution part of it, and I don't know that anyone could deserve it more.
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  • MooshvilleMooshville Posts: 104Registered Users
    If the death penalty meant the felon would be executed within a reasonable time frame then I'd be for it for certain cases like this and Jodi Arias. But they sit on death row for years and some die on death row. What's the point for death then? Also many inmates having a rough time in jail would rather have death than go on like this. So in this case, don't kill them! :spiderman:
  • The New BlackThe New Black Posts: 16,738Registered Users
    Um, no.
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  • AmnerisAmneris Posts: 15,117Registered Users
    No. It's barbaric and I don't support it being used on anyone.

    What purpose does it serve except to feed the bloodlust of the basest of human instincts? It doesn't deter crime, it doesn't bring back the victim or restore their family to the way they were, it doesn't salvage or rehabilitate the offender's life. Nor does it correct the underlying social problems that often lead to crime. And mistakes can be made.
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  • AmnerisAmneris Posts: 15,117Registered Users
    Myradella3 wrote: »
    For those opposed to the death penalty, would you support it for this guy if he was found guilty after a trial?
    Woman killed, child raped in NY mall carjacking - Yahoo! News

    Plus the question doesn't make sense - if you're opposed to the death penalty, you're opposed to it in all situations. And I hate to say it, but this isn't even the worst or most senseless and brutal of crimes possible.

    A trial isn't fool-proof. There are so many factors and variables that influence the outcome. We try to make it as fail-safe as possible, but it is a human process run by humans. Even the appeal process doesn't necessarily cure all defects.
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  • claudine19claudine19 Posts: 4,486Registered Users
    I really struggle with my feelings about the death penalty. I hate the practice, but what has the murderer himself done (in the cases with which I'm most familiar)?
    Does he deserve better than what he gave? I just don't know.

    As for child rape, I can't wrap my mind around it enough to think through an appropriate punishment. Something hellish is all I can manage.
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  • curlypearlcurlypearl Posts: 11,970Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I am opposed ONLY because innocent people have been put to death.
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  • legendslegends Posts: 3,073Registered Users
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2Faponline%2F2013%2F03%2F16%2Fus%2Fap-us-carjacking-woman-killed.html%3Fpartner%3Drss%26amp%3Bemc%3Drss%26amp%3Bsmid%3Dtw-nytimes%26amp%3B_r%3D0" class="Popup

    Now we all know the cops locked him in with other prisoners hoping for just that result. Who are they kidding?

    I don't like how the information is being presented so far. Why is he being accused of this crime? Did the victim ID him? Or is he a convenient scapegoat because he already broke the law?

    I just have too hard a time talking the word of the police on anything.
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  • Fifi.GFifi.G Posts: 15,490Registered Users
    legends wrote: »
    Too many people have proven to be innocent while on death row or after execution. And even if that can be fixed, capital punishment should still be rare and saved for extreme cases.

    The guy in the story? I have zero moral qualms about him being put to death, IF he's truly guilty.


    This sums up how I feel about it.

    Just look at Charles Manson. Life in prison and he has gotten his hands on weapons, and cell phones, numerous times and likes to tell people exactly how dangerous he still is. Some calls he made to people in other states and countries, in the past 5 or 6 years, are still being investigated. We already know he has quite the hold on some people.

    LIP is not an ideal situation for some.
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  • Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
    I'm admittedly simple minded. If his semen is in the girl, he should die. Let his family choose the labs (10 or 100) that does the tests. If it's his semen, he should die. That won't deter other people but it will certainly deter him. If it's not his, then put him in prison for life because of the child porno.

    Until he dies - whether a needle or natural causes -, the victims' family will be paying for his housing, health care, education if he wants, food, legal fees and whatever else he wants through their taxes.
  • murrrcatmurrrcat Posts: 9,596Registered Users
    do we know he raped the child? did he rape the child?
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  • crimsonshedemoncrimsonshedemon Posts: 2,098Registered Users
    If we used the death penalty more often, it may be more of a deterrent. We dont use it enough. But since we dont use it, we need to get rid of it because it is so costly to hold inmates on death row.
    Inmates at least in CA get way too many privileges. In fact they get a lot more than a lot of working citizens who have no violent criminal history. It's disgusting!
    Depending on his race, he may get killed in prison. But not always. I have absolutely no sympathy for garbage like this.
  • crimsonshedemoncrimsonshedemon Posts: 2,098Registered Users
    Sorry for the double post
  • KurlyKaeKurlyKae Posts: 3,413Registered Users
    claudine19 wrote: »
    I really struggle with my feelings about the death penalty. I hate the practice, but what has the murderer himself done (in the cases with which I'm most familiar)?
    Does he deserve better than what he gave? I just don't know.

    As for child rape, I can't wrap my mind around it enough to think through an appropriate punishment. Something hellish is all I can manage.

    claudine, get out of my head.

    I didn't realize that I struggled internally with the concept of the death penalty, until the Timothy McVeigh execution happened. I had a very difficult time with it that day, as I watched the tv coverage of the execution. Does putting this criminal to death really avenge the injustice of his vile actions? Is it right for the justice system to kill in the name of justice? Should humans really make that decision?

    That and the real possibility of innocence. The never ending process of appeals, that cost money to the taxpayer is a (secondary) concern as well.
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  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    Myradella3 wrote: »
    Until he dies - whether a needle or natural causes -, the victims' family will be paying for his housing, health care, education if he wants, food, legal fees and whatever else he wants through their taxes.
    And if he's executed, I'll be paying for the premeditated killing of a human being.

    I've been asked the question in the OP before, and it's very patronizing. Could I really be unaware that there's such thing as rapists and murderers? Would I really form my opinion without considering the terrible things people do?

    Speaking of which, the death penalty is one of the terrible things people do. All execution does is fulfill our own hunger for violence. It's well established that it's completely ineffective for any other purpose. And I do not accept retribution as a reason to kill someone.
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    Inmates at least in CA get way too many privileges. In fact they get a lot more than a lot of working citizens who have no violent criminal history. It's disgusting!
    What privileges do inmates get? I'm very interested in hearing more about this.
    Depending on his race, he may get killed in prison. But not always. I have absolutely no sympathy for garbage like this.
    So racist violence is perfectly fine sometimes. Would you say that's a fair restatement?
  • Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Inmates at least in CA get way too many privileges. In fact they get a lot more than a lot of working citizens who have no violent criminal history. It's disgusting!
    What privileges do inmates get? I'm very interested in hearing more about this.

    Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
  • Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    I've been asked the question in the OP before, and it's very patronizing. Could I really be unaware that there's such thing as rapists and murderers? Would I really form my opinion without considering the terrible things people do?

    Speaking of which, the death penalty is one of the terrible things people do. All execution does is fulfill our own hunger for violence. It's well established that it's completely ineffective for any other purpose. And I do not accept retribution as a reason to kill someone.

    Suppose evidence is there and this particular guy confesses. As a member of society, what do you think should happen to him?
  • munchkinmunchkin Posts: 2,909Registered Users
    My problem with capital punishment is there are so many gray areas. I fear for those people who are innocent but found guilty mistakenly. Once we take their life we cannot give it back. Sure if a case was black and white, no question that the accused was guilty, there are many instances I could support capital punishment. The system just doesn't work that way.

    As sick as what I think this man did, I would rather he be in prison for life than someone innocent, possibly dear to me, found guilty and put to death.
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  • cosmicflycosmicfly Posts: 1,814Registered Users
    I struggle with this but I am opposed to the death penalty because mistakes can be made or people can be framed and given the experiences of some people who are close to me, I don't trust the "justice" system to be honest all the time. I also think execution feeds the barbaric, violent undercurrent in our society.

    Slightly OT but as far as inmates having privileges, if we didn't lock everybody up for every little thing (I'm talking about nonviolent crime, much of which can be addressed through house arrest/ community based rehabilitation which could require individuals to support themselves), we wouldn't have to offer as many privileges. But when you can spend 2 years in prison for leaving your keys in the ignition and having some drinks at a friend's house while an unfriendly neighbor calls the police and says you might be driving, you damn well better offer some programming. Prison ruins people. It's a nasty system designed to keep people coming back.
  • legendslegends Posts: 3,073Registered Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Myradella3 wrote: »
    Until he dies - whether a needle or natural causes -, the victims' family will be paying for his housing, health care, education if he wants, food, legal fees and whatever else he wants through their taxes.
    And if he's executed, I'll be paying for the premeditated killing of a human being.

    I've been asked the question in the OP before, and it's very patronizing. Could I really be unaware that there's such thing as rapists and murderers? Would I really form my opinion without considering the terrible things people do?

    Speaking of which, the death penalty is one of the terrible things people do. All execution does is fulfill our own hunger for violence. It's well established that it's completely ineffective for any other purpose. And I do not accept retribution as a reason to kill someone.
    I agree with all this, but...

    I'm okay with the bolded as a reason for execution. I know it's not a deterrent, but there's that very base part of me that believes that some people really just need to be killed. Serial killers, child rapists...they will never not be a danger to society.

    That said, for purely practical purposes, I think it would be best for capital punishment to be abolished. The risks of execution an innocent person is just too high. The cost of keeping a person on death row for years is too much, and since we're dealing with someone's life, it should take a long time and many appeals before they're killed.
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  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    Myradella3 wrote: »
    Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
    ...
    Suppose evidence is there and this particular guy confesses. As a member of society, what do you think should happen to him?
    I think he should be fed, clothed, housed, and given healthcare, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, and education. I don't even know what to say to the idea that prisoners, inmates in actual US prisons, are privileged compared to average hard-working citizens. (I know someone else wrote that second part, but it sounds like you agree with it. Please let me know if I'm wrong.)

    Let's say this guy is sentenced to life in prison. As a member of society, do you want to starve him, leave him naked and without shelter, let his mind and body decay from inactivity, and sit back and watch as illness claims him? This isn't a rhetorical question meant to make you see the "error of your ways," and I'm not asking you what he deserves. If the murderer-rapist in the article gets life in prison, what should we, as a society, do with him? If he were in your personal custody and unable to harm you, what would you, yourself, do with him?
  • EilonwyEilonwy Posts: 12,389Registered Users
    legends wrote: »
    I know it's not a deterrent, but there's that very base part of me that believes that some people really just need to be killed. Serial killers, child rapists...they will never not be a danger to society.
    See, I think imprisoning someone for life means they're no longer a danger to the public. People escape from prison, but that's pretty unusual. I think the purpose of prison is to protect the public and rehabilitate inmates. This guy isn't going to be rehabilitated, but we still need to restrict our actions to the minimum needed to ensure our safety. If we go further than that, what kind of people are we?

    What this man truly deserves, what would happen to him in a fair and just universe with no afterlife, is a difficult question. But what we ourselves should do is, for me, an easy one. I know what kind of person I want to be. I know what kind of society I want to live in. And while part of me wants him to be killed, my desire to rise above that is stronger.
  • LoveInBetweenLoveInBetween Posts: 392Registered Users
    I say we take all the prisoners on death row, line them up and shoot them all.

    Use the money that was used to support them and give it to our schools.

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  • LovemenappyLovemenappy Posts: 332Registered Users
    I agree with all of the above, what I believe in when it comes to situations such as that, is something a bit more harsh....solitary confinement...for life....in a white room...everything white...with a bright light. Humans are social creatures, being isolated without any human contact is probably the most non-violent form of punishment you can inflict on someone...bordering on torture. Leave them to the prison of their mind and their thoughts. They will eventually lose their mind. and die mentally or take themselves out. This is especially the case of violent/repeat sex offenders....like that MONSTER who was taping himself raping a 6 month old. People want them to have access to health, food, shelter, clothes etc? Fine. They can have all of that....alone. Forever. Time will stand still for them. Just leaving violent child rapists in prison where they can still make some form of a life in general pop. isn't good enough. Now I know sex offenders generally are treated horribly in prison, but they get less time than murderers and drug dealers do, and that's disgraceful. Im not trivializing murder at all, but child sex offenders seem to be one of those crimes that have a high rate of repeats. Those people should get the ultimate punishment.

    People can sit on death row for years, they have time to "ask for forgiveness", come to terms with their crime, become mentally prepared, and in some case become eager to go ahead and die. They have, to some degree, time on their side a luxury their victims didn't have. Even in prison, yes it is Im sure a living hell (mostly due to the nature of the people who are there as well as the lack of control over ones' life and restrictions etc)...however they still are around people and are living. They can look forward to activities, or preoccupy themselves reading....even in a short moment in time, things aren't so bad with things like that to distract you. I don't trust the justice system either, but for cases where it is CLEAR that someone committed a horrific crime...Im pro-sc all day.
  • Myradella3Myradella3 Posts: 2,481Registered Users
    Eilonwy wrote: »
    Myradella3 wrote: »
    Inmates are fed, clothed, housed, get health care, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, education (college degrees are not unheard of)....it's easy to say those things aren't 'priviledges' but murder victims aren't getting those things are they?
    ...
    Suppose evidence is there and this particular guy confesses. As a member of society, what do you think should happen to him?
    I think he should be fed, clothed, housed, and given healthcare, medication, books, recreation, dental care, conjugal visits, and education. I don't even know what to say to the idea that prisoners, inmates in actual US prisons, are privileged compared to average hard-working citizens. (I know someone else wrote that second part, but it sounds like you agree with it. Please let me know if I'm wrong.)

    Let's say this guy is sentenced to life in prison. As a member of society, do you want to starve him, leave him naked and without shelter, let his mind and body decay from inactivity, and sit back and watch as illness claims him? This isn't a rhetorical question meant to make you see the "error of your ways," and I'm not asking you what he deserves. If the murderer-rapist in the article gets life in prison, what should we, as a society, do with him? If he were in your personal custody and unable to harm you, what would you, yourself, do with him?

    I don't think anyone said prisoners were privledged compared to average hard working citizens. But they are privileged compared to a lot of folks to who don't have access to health care. They are priviledged compared to homeless who would love 3 hots and cot. And they are priviledged compared to a guy who has to bury his wife and deal with a daughter so violently violated.

    What do I want to do with that particular guy? I want him to get the death penalty if he's guilty. If there's no DP then yes starve him; Yes let him go naked. Yes let his mind decay (it's pretty far gone anyway). I think I answered your questions so please answer this:

    Are you saying that this guy should have no punishment for what he did - if he's guilty?
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