CurlTalk

Why is sealing with oil good but silicones are "bad?"

It seems to me that the same reasons some people don't like silicones in their hair products--it builds up, needs strong shampoo to wash out, keeps moisture from penetrating--would apply to oils such as jojoba as well.

I have medium-fine hair and every time I try oils, it's a disaster, and I have to use a clarifying wash. What am I missing?
*3B, medium/fine, normal porosity, normal elasticity, shoulder-length when dry.

Comments

  • Aqua_LilyAqua_Lily Posts: 557Registered Users
    The problem with silicones is that you need a SULFATE to wash them out.

    You definitely don't need sulfates to wash out oils, you can do it with mild cleansers.

    And that is why oils are CG friendly, and why silicones are not.

    Oils are very different from silicones. Oils get absorbed by the hair. But it depends how much you use, not everything gets absorbed. And it depends on the oil. Oils are partially water soluble... co-wash removes most of the build up but not everything. Jojoba and castor are the least water soluble I believe. So yeah, oils can build up a little, especially if you have fine hair. So it is important to do a mild clarifying wash every now and then, I use Nature's Gate ( /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.iherb.com%2FNature-s-Gate-Replenishing-Shampoo-Chamomile-18-fl-oz-532-ml%2F6165" class="Popup ) for that. It is a sulfate free mild shampoo and works excellent for me when I want to remove oil build up.
    4-2.png
    Current length: tailbone
    Goal length: mid-thigh (wet)
    3A/2C M iii med por, high elast

    HGs:
    Clarify: Nivea
    Lo-poo: Nature's Gate
    CW: Elvive Volume Collagen
    RO: EO Keratin, Desert Essence Raspberry

    LI: Elvive volume collagen, KCKT
    Seal: Grapeseed oil
    Gel: Studioline

    PT: EO Keratin co
    DT: RO+oils
    Hairgrowth stim.: JBCO+EVCO


    www.iherb.com 5-10$ discount code:
    VHT541 Many natural hair products! :D
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    Well first, silicones dry to a film, where oils do not. Oils can be washed out with very mild surficants, such as those found in conditioner. Silicones need something stronger, but not necessarily sulfates. There are plenty of "low poos" that will remove silicones.

    Silicones are not evil, either. They do cause some people problems, and they can build up, some more than others. But if you are low-pooing even once a week, you will greatly decrease your chance of silicones giving you a problem.

    If you are using cones, you need to be aware of whether you are removing them or not, how often, and if there are any signs of build up or drying. You may need to clarify every so often in addition to your low pooing.

    Some silicones may cause you issues where other don't. And the next curly may love a cone you hate, and visa versa. Amodimethicone for one is not supposed to cause any build up, in that it will only deposit one layer and then repels any additional.

    I co-wash some days, low-poo 2-3 times or so a week, and clarify as needed. (Probably 1-2 times a month.). I do regular PT's and DT's. I'm considering trying some products with cones, and with my routine I should have few issues.
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    Oh - and as for oils and your issues, some people's hair don't react we'll to oils. Sometimes it depends on the oil, too. If you are using a penetrating oil, that may weigh your hair down. Lighter oils like Grapeseed or jojoba may be better to try than EVCO or EVOO (which do penetrate the hair shaft.)

    Technique can be an issue, too. Many of us find oil best applied in VERY small amount (a few drops!) on very wet hair, or a small amount rubbed into your palms and then smoothed onto dry hair to tame frizz, flyaways, or dryness.
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • JessiebananaJessiebanana Posts: 940Banned Users
    Yeah I have the same issues with a lot of the sealing oils. My problem is my hair hates clarifying, even when it's covered in build up. Yeah, it's cleaner and responding to products, but I have the worst fuzzy halo that takes forever to moisturize away. It's a lot easier for me if I stick with products that don't have any major build up and never clarify. I don't get that instant gratification, but the results after a bit of time are consistent.
    3C/Fine to Medium/Low Porosity/High Density

    :love5:MoistureMoistureMoisture:love5:

    Low Poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo
    RO/DC: DB Pumpkin Seed Curl Moisturizing Conditioner
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: Queen Helene Sculpturing Gel & Glaze

    No Salts, No Waxes, No Butters, No Heavy Oils
    No ACV, No Saponified Oils, Protein Sensitive
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    Do you do a pre-poo before clarifying? I will smooth/scrunch a mix of water, condish, and sometimes coconut oil I to my dry hair from the ends up, wait 15mins, then do the clarifying poo. I even mix some oil with the clarifying poo to prevent any drying.
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • seamelody14seamelody14 Posts: 282Registered Users
    Besides needing surfacants to remove silicones (which I actually don't have that much of a problem with) they don't penetrate unlike some oils, making them great for oil treatments.
    2a/b
    medium/thick
    high porosity (from coloring)

    Shampoo: Mop Top Gentle Shampoo
    Co-wash: Chistophe Robin Lemon Cleansing Cream
    RO: CJ strengthening, Kenra moisturizing
    LI: Jessicurl Aloeba
    DT: CJ rehab, Christophe Robin Prickly Pear Mask
    PT: SS protein treatment, Ouidad 12 minute
    Stylers: Jessicurl RR, SS Firm Hold Gel
    Oils: caudalie, sweet almond
  • kathymackkathymack Posts: 9,999Registered Users
    My hair doesn't care for straight oil/butter, but likes them in products. I've used natural soap bars to remove the "residual" ingredients for the last 4+ years (they were the rage on nc.com summer of '08.) I rarely use lowpoo. Maybe every 3-4 months--if I use an ingredient my hair doesn't like.

    I usually take CJ Daily Fix to the salon every six weeks when I get my haircut/highlight. I like it for it's chelating properties.
    3a (Corkicelli), highlighted, fine, low porosity
    SE PA

    HGs: Anything Sevi; Curly Kinks Satin Roots, Curlycue ReNew and Coil Jam; homemade FSG and okra gel; soap bars; UFD Curly Magic; Botanical Spirits Jellies, CJ Repair Me, Aloe Fix
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • CalendulaCalendula Posts: 60Registered Users
    But I thought oil was not water-soluble? Or am I remembering seventh-grade chemistry wrong... :)

    It's one thing to read about the science of hair care on a computer screen but another to look at empirical evidence from my own hair: When I was using products with silicones, my hair did not look noticeably greasy, but when I have applied straight oils, my hair looks greasy. And if I apply oil to my hair with my hands, then wash my hands with soap, there seems to be a thin layer of oil left unless I really scrub hard.

    So it's hard for me to understand why oils are easier to remove.

    Jas76: I think my biggest problem has been using too much. My hair is medium-fine and not terribly dense, so perhaps I need to back off the amount of oil I'm putting in my hair. So I'll try it your way! :)

    And if that doesn't work I'll just use oils in products like kathymack. Or no oils at all.
    *3B, medium/fine, normal porosity, normal elasticity, shoulder-length when dry.
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    Definitely try a few drops on very wet hair! I even sometimes mix those drops with a little LI, so they are easier to distribute.

    But remember, oils aren't for everyone!

    My hair is fine-med, too, and loves oils. (It's also pretty long and is porous).
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • CalendulaCalendula Posts: 60Registered Users
    Jas76 wrote: »
    Definitely try a few drops on very wet hair! I even sometimes mix those drops with a little LI, so they are easier to distribute.

    But remember, oils aren't for everyone!

    My hair is fine-med, too, and loves oils. (It's also pretty long and is porous).

    Mine is medium porosity.

    If all else fails, I can use the oils I have on my body, too. That's the nice thing about many hair products--they can multi-task.
    *3B, medium/fine, normal porosity, normal elasticity, shoulder-length when dry.
  • JessiebananaJessiebanana Posts: 940Banned Users
    Jas76 wrote: »
    Do you do a pre-poo before clarifying? I will smooth/scrunch a mix of water, condish, and sometimes coconut oil I to my dry hair from the ends up, wait 15mins, then do the clarifying poo. I even mix some oil with the clarifying poo to prevent any drying.

    That's what I did and how I handled it before I figured out what I'm doing now is better for my hair. I might try sealing my ends, but never again oil all over.
    3C/Fine to Medium/Low Porosity/High Density

    :love5:MoistureMoistureMoisture:love5:

    Low Poo: CJ Gentle Cleansing Shampoo
    RO/DC: DB Pumpkin Seed Curl Moisturizing Conditioner
    LI: CJ Smoothing Lotion
    Styler: Queen Helene Sculpturing Gel & Glaze

    No Salts, No Waxes, No Butters, No Heavy Oils
    No ACV, No Saponified Oils, Protein Sensitive
  • morganrcmorganrc Posts: 86Registered Users
    Silicones wrap around the hair and coat it, blocking the moisture from actually penetrating your hair. So it's like plastic, and the moisture slides right off.
    2B, Coarse, Low-Medium Porosity, Dense.
    -Cowash - Kiss My Face Whenever.
    -Rinse Out/Leave in - Nature's Gate Biotin.
    -No stylers.:thumbright:
  • CalendulaCalendula Posts: 60Registered Users
    morganrc wrote: »
    Silicones wrap around the hair and coat it, blocking the moisture from actually penetrating your hair. So it's like plastic, and the moisture slides right off.

    Morganrc, I understand that but it seems like in theory oils would do the same thing--to seal moisture in, they must be coating the hair. By that line of reasoning, you could use silicones to seal your hair to keep the moisture in.

    Others on this thread have explained to me that oils are easier to wash out than silicones. I'm not sure who figured that out and if it's actually true. I'm curious about the source of that information.

    I still wonder if silicones are simply vilified because they are "unnatural" and oils are glorified because they're "natural." There's a bit of a bias against synthetic ingredients by many who post on NC.com, and I'm not sure how valid it is.
    *3B, medium/fine, normal porosity, normal elasticity, shoulder-length when dry.
  • morganrcmorganrc Posts: 86Registered Users
    Calendula wrote: »
    morganrc wrote: »
    Silicones wrap around the hair and coat it, blocking the moisture from actually penetrating your hair. So it's like plastic, and the moisture slides right off.

    Morganrc, I understand that but it seems like in theory oils would do the same thing--to seal moisture in, they must be coating the hair. By that line of reasoning, you could use silicones to seal your hair to keep the moisture in.

    Others on this thread have explained to me that oils are easier to wash out than silicones. I'm not sure who figured that out and if it's actually true. I'm curious about the source of that information.

    I still wonder if silicones are simply vilified because they are "unnatural" and oils are glorified because they're "natural." There's a bit of a bias against synthetic ingredients by many who post on NC.com, and I'm not sure how valid it is.

    I don't have an answer for you, to be honest. I just know that about the silicones. I think it depends on whether or not the oil is water soluble. I don't use either so I guess I can't really vouch for either.
    2B, Coarse, Low-Medium Porosity, Dense.
    -Cowash - Kiss My Face Whenever.
    -Rinse Out/Leave in - Nature's Gate Biotin.
    -No stylers.:thumbright:
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    I think it's because cones dry to a solid, where oils do not.
    For me it's not about natural vs synthetic. I use mineral oil in my hair, and there are plenty of other synthetic ingredients in the stuff I and most of us use. I even use water soluble cones in some things.

    And I'm not fully opposed to using regular cones, since I low poo.

    I don't know all the science behind it, but oils do wash out better. They will penetrate the hair shaft (eventually) rather than coat it (except mineral oil, I think), and they don't dry to a solid film.
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • NvmbrCurlssNvmbrCurlss Posts: 732Registered Users
    Oils are "emollient soluble" or "oil soluble", (simple chemistry, like-dissolves-like), which means they are rinsed out with conditioners that contain emollients/oils (fatty alcohols, conditioning agents, emulsifiers..). Silicones, on the other hand, dry into a solid film, (even most mild silicones are only water/emollient soluble within the bottle and NOT once deposited onto hair), so they must be dissolved by a chemical surfactant. Much like lime deposits (showerscum), silicones require high ph, very alkaline and harsh chemicals to remove...

    FYI, I mix oil with my LI, (4 drops grapeseed to every quarter sized dollop), to avoid "greasy hair" and maintain the benefits of sealing. I also use the occasional mild coney LI and cleanse with coco-betaine at the end of the week. I believe only dimethicone MUST be removed with SLS (sulfates). Mild cones, (like bis-amino propyl dimethicone, PEG-silicones, amodimethicone or phenyltrimethocone), can be removed with coco betaine. But watch out with how often you "low poo" with this, cuz it can be striping to your hairs natural oils (aka protective barrier). Hope this helps:)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]3B, Fine, Normal P, Normal E, Low-Med D
    LowP: Kinky Curly Come Clean (50% EVOO)
    NoP: As I Am CC
    RO: Suave Coconut, VO5 Shea Cashmere
    LI: KCKT or CJBCLI or HETT/HENOYF (w/ 8 drops GSO)


    "To much is given, much is expected"
  • NvmbrCurlssNvmbrCurlss Posts: 732Registered Users
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]3B, Fine, Normal P, Normal E, Low-Med D
    LowP: Kinky Curly Come Clean (50% EVOO)
    NoP: As I Am CC
    RO: Suave Coconut, VO5 Shea Cashmere
    LI: KCKT or CJBCLI or HETT/HENOYF (w/ 8 drops GSO)


    "To much is given, much is expected"
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    Great info, NvmberCurls!

    One thing, I believe even dimethicone can be removed with coco betaine -

    http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curly-q-a/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones

    I'm still trying to determine if SM's poo removes any cones. I don't think so.
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • CalendulaCalendula Posts: 60Registered Users
    You guys are the best. :)
    *3B, medium/fine, normal porosity, normal elasticity, shoulder-length when dry.
  • wholelottalovewholelottalove Posts: 168Registered Users
    Jas76 wrote: »
    Great info, NvmberCurls!

    One thing, I believe even dimethicone can be removed with coco betaine -

    http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlreading/curly-q-a/whats-the-scoop-on-silicones

    I'm still trying to determine if SM's poo removes any cones. I don't think so.

    I believe it can too, I have no scientific evidence though, just my own experience. I almost never co-wash but I do use a cleansing conditioner with coca betaine (CJDF) and I also use Moroccanoil and it seems to work quite well. I think silicones are only harmful if you don't really use any sort of surfactant. Of course, cones (or certain cones) simply don't work for some people. Cyclopentasiloxane spells disaster for me personally, at least in a conditioner of any sort, though I'm pretty sure my serum doesn't contain it either.
    3a
    medium/thick
    Loves protein and oils

    Low-poo: MopTop gentle shampoo
    Co-wash: CJDF, Jessicurl Aloeba
    RO: Jessicurl Too Shea, MopTop daily conditioner, CJ rehab, CJ strengthening
    LI: ^^^
    DT: Jessicurl WDT, SS Deeply Decadent
    PT: SS protein treatment, Ouidad 12 min
    Oils: argan, sweet almond, jessicurl oil blend
    Stylers: SS firm hold, SS curl enhancing jelly, Kiss My Face Upper Management gel, AG Recoil
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    I found this thread in a search today, and WOW is it insightful!!

    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.untamedtresses.com%2Flong-hair-care-2%2Fcan-glucosides-remove-silicone-build-up-3143%2F" class="Popup

    Just before I went CG I was using Dove, and my hair was like straw. I don't know if it was the sulfate or the dimethicone or what, but it was a mess.

    I sort of think I have issues with dimethicone, but I can't say for sure. I am REALLY thinking amodimethicone might be a good option for me, but I'm wondering if I should use it in a LI, almost as a sealer. That way I can wash it out with my poo, get some good moisture in with my GVPCB, and then seal in and "repair" the damaged areas with the cone.

    Of course maybe I'm afraid they moisture won't penetrate a layer of cones, and that's probably more an issue with cone build-up than cone use in general.
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • CalendulaCalendula Posts: 60Registered Users
    Jas76 wrote: »
    I found this thread in a search today, and WOW is it insightful!!

    Can glucosides remove silicone build-up?

    Just before I went CG I was using Dove, and my hair was like straw. I don't know if it was the sulfate or the dimethicone or what, but it was a mess.

    I sort of think I have issues with dimethicone, but I can't say for sure. I am REALLY thinking amodimethicone might be a good option for me, but I'm wondering if I should use it in a LI, almost as a sealer. That way I can wash it out with my poo, get some good moisture in with my GVPCB, and then seal in and "repair" the damaged areas with the cone.

    Of course maybe I'm afraid they moisture won't penetrate a layer of cones, and that's probably more an issue with cone build-up than cone use in general.

    That is really interesting.

    I've had the very same thought about using silicon in a LI. If you try it, let us know if it works.
    *3B, medium/fine, normal porosity, normal elasticity, shoulder-length when dry.