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Stylists or curly chemists, please, I have a cone question..

MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
So: If my conditioner ("if") has dimethiconol, and if I shampoo daily with a Shea Moisture shampoo, am I harming my hair? See, I have never been clear about this; because I "low poo" daily, am I removing the so called water insoluble cone??

Comments

  • NvmbrCurlssNvmbrCurlss Posts: 732Registered Users
    I'm not a chemist, but I believe dimethiconol cannot be "dissolved" by the glucosides in SM...u would need a cleanser with coco betaine?
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]3B, Fine, Normal P, Normal E, Low-Med D
    LowP: Kinky Curly Come Clean (50% EVOO)
    NoP: As I Am CC
    RO: Suave Coconut, VO5 Shea Cashmere
    LI: KCKT or CJBCLI or HETT/HENOYF (w/ 8 drops GSO)


    "To much is given, much is expected"
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I did that today, and my hair came out terrible, so I really need to know the answer to the question as I asked it, but thanks, Nvmbr.
  • flippaciousflippacious Posts: 155Registered Users
    I was recently looking into surfactants, albeit in relation to polyquats, but found this thread extremely helpful:

    http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/2532-cones-polyquats-ions-removal-buildup.html

    Basically, dimethiconol is a water insoluble cone that cannot be removed by nonionic surfactants. You need to use an ionic surfactant to remove it (or something harsher).

    I have only checked out two Shea Moisture shampoos, but they both had decyl glucoside, which is a nonionic surfactant. That won't remove the water insoluble cone. Cocomidopropyl betaine is an ionic surfactant that will remove dimethiconol. The thread above provides a much more thorough explanation, though!
    2b/c, high density
    fine, medium porosity, normal elasticity
    loves protein, hates polyquats
    still searching for HGs
  • Geek_ChicGeek_Chic Posts: 1,257Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    I'm not a chemist, or a stylist, but here's what I found when I googled. You'll have to decide whether you think this is credible or not. Shea Moisture shampoos have Decyl Glucoside as the major cleansing ingredient. This thread, specifically post #10, indicates that it will remove even silicones that aren't water soluble.

    Also, though it isn't backed up with anything, the last comment from the author on this page also says that it will remove all silicones. She says to shampoo twice for your initial shampoo to ensure complete removal, but that after the initial shampoo, continuing with a single shampoo in followup cleansings is adequate for complete removal. The commenter is the site owner and page author, and she's a naturopath. In my mind, naturopath isn't necessarily equivalent to having plenty of haircare /hair product knowledge, but it's perhaps better than just a layperson saying the same.
    CG since 11/2011
    2c /3a F /Mii, low porosity

    Go To Products /Routine:
    Clarifying: Suave Essentials Strawberry
    Low Poo: Renpure Luxurious Argan Oil
    CO: Suave Essentials Strawberry, V05 Kiwi Lime
    RO /LI: Tresemme Perfectly (un)Done, Cure Care, V05 Kiwi Lime Squeeze, Suave Essentials Strawberry, Renpure Brazilian Keratin (old formula)
    Stylers: LALSG, AIF, HETT, Suave Professionals Firm Control
    PT: IAGirl's as needed
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I want to thank all for the links and the responses. All I know is yesterday I washed with a Shea Moisture shampoo - I forgot if it was the Moisture Retention or the Coconut Hibiscus - and used a Dove conditioner that has dimethiconol - and my hair looked lovely, better than I think I have ever seen it look, despite all my efforts to have great CG hair. I am going to try this combo again tomorrow. And if it works, I am going to keep doing it. If I notice a problem with my hair, I will stop. The evidence presented here - and, admittedly, I dont understand it all - seems inconclusive. I suspect that if one uses a shampoo with cones, a conditioner with cones, and styling product(s) with cones, that could be problematic, especially if one wets their hair in the morning or night, does not low poo or shampoo, and keeps loading on products. I dont do that. So I will keep you all informed about my little experiment - because I dont want to be extremist or purist in anything, and I dont want to accept something as gospel unless I know if it is right for me.
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    I had thought SM would not remove cones - so this is new and interesting!! I had always used a coco betaine low poo for that type of thing, but maybe that's not necessary and the SM would be fine?

    Let us know how it goes, Myrna!
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • MojoDojoMojoDojo Posts: 702Registered Users
    I was recently looking into surfactants, albeit in relation to polyquats, but found this thread extremely helpful:

    http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/general-discussion-about-curly-hair/2532-cones-polyquats-ions-removal-buildup.html

    Basically, dimethiconol is a water insoluble cone that cannot be removed by nonionic surfactants. You need to use an ionic surfactant to remove it (or something harsher).

    I have only checked out two Shea Moisture shampoos, but they both had decyl glucoside, which is a nonionic surfactant. That won't remove the water insoluble cone. Cocomidopropyl betaine is an ionic surfactant that will remove dimethiconol. The thread above provides a much more thorough explanation, though!

    Flippacious beat me to it.
    I AM THE NEANDERTHAL SLAYER!!!
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    As I said previously, there seems to conflicting opinions about at least some of the cones, and removal. I suspect, as I said, that it is a question of degree. Will keep you posted.
  • NvmbrCurlssNvmbrCurlss Posts: 732Registered Users
    I'd love to know how ur experiment turns out, cuz I'm a new fan of HETT and it contains bisaminopropyl dimethicone...I'm using Come Clean at the end of the week to remove (it doesn't appear to build up on its self, rather it continues to find cuticles to fill until, BAM!, perfect hair on day 3,4 AND 5). I'm gonna subscribe to this thread and become a lurker :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]3B, Fine, Normal P, Normal E, Low-Med D
    LowP: Kinky Curly Come Clean (50% EVOO)
    NoP: As I Am CC
    RO: Suave Coconut, VO5 Shea Cashmere
    LI: KCKT or CJBCLI or HETT/HENOYF (w/ 8 drops GSO)


    "To much is given, much is expected"
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    Pardon the threadnap, Myrna, but I must hear more about this HETT and 3-5 day hair???
    So give us your routine! Are you using the mousse? Gel? Are you reapplying to dry hair? What are you doing on day 1??
    Fill us in!!
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Just reporting in here: 2nd time of using the Dove conditioner with dimethiconol: great hair. Great curl def and shiny, bouncy curls. If I have a week of this, it may be time to change, or at least to start questioning more.
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    I bet if it continues going well you'll be fine! You may find you need a slightly stronger poo maybe once a week or so, but then again maybe not, too!

    Some people find cones to be great sealers. And you can still apply CG principles and be mod-CG while using cones.

    Most important thing is to find what WORKS for you! If you are getting good results, go with it!

    (I realize you know all that, Myrna, but some people reading this may not! ;) )
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    That would be fine, then I would not have to miss out on using my Aveda Shampoo Brilliant, which I love.
  • NvmbrCurlssNvmbrCurlss Posts: 732Registered Users
    Jas76 wrote: »
    Pardon the threadnap, Myrna, but I must hear more about this HETT and 3-5 day hair???
    So give us your routine! Are you using the mousse? Gel? Are you reapplying to dry hair? What are you doing on day 1??
    Fill us in!!

    I must clarify, I re-wet, rinse out with suave tropical coconut and add more HETT(conditioner) as a leave in. It's just the longer I go without cleansing, while using it, the better my hair looks! :) whatever cuticles weren't coated with the first use, just get moist and coated with each use...I wish I could get true 2nd or 3rd day hair without having to re-wet, but my hair is so fine it won't hold up overnight:( but I LOVE HETT!!!!!!
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]3B, Fine, Normal P, Normal E, Low-Med D
    LowP: Kinky Curly Come Clean (50% EVOO)
    NoP: As I Am CC
    RO: Suave Coconut, VO5 Shea Cashmere
    LI: KCKT or CJBCLI or HETT/HENOYF (w/ 8 drops GSO)


    "To much is given, much is expected"
  • NvmbrCurlssNvmbrCurlss Posts: 732Registered Users
    And I feel you Myrna...cone use is giving me some doubts and anxiety about build up...
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]3B, Fine, Normal P, Normal E, Low-Med D
    LowP: Kinky Curly Come Clean (50% EVOO)
    NoP: As I Am CC
    RO: Suave Coconut, VO5 Shea Cashmere
    LI: KCKT or CJBCLI or HETT/HENOYF (w/ 8 drops GSO)


    "To much is given, much is expected"
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Third day, SM Moisture retention shampoo and Dove Revitalizing conditioner, Curl Keeper and Deva foam: Hard to believe that a cheap conditioner with dimethicone could get great results and be bad for my hair.
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    See, that's just it! It ISN'T bad for you hair! It's the cycle of cones and sulfates! If you are able to get the cones out w/o using sulfates, or by using them sparingly, your hair will be better off.

    Again, if your hair is doing well with this, go with it! If it starts going downhill, clarify. There may be build up eventually, your hair could get drier - if so just remove the cones and do a DT on a fairly regular basis.

    I'm glad you found something that is working! Makes me tempted to give cones a try again... Tho most people on here who use cones have said they CANNOT use them in their condish, only in stylers. I'm still torn. :/
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Hi, Jas: I dont need the cones in a styler, at least I dont think I do. But in the conditioner, I am seeing my hair look shinier, and with better curl definition. Youre correct, it could be temporary, so Ill continue to post about this.
  • oh.hi.its.stephoh.hi.its.steph Posts: 640Registered Users
    You know, I fell off the CG bandwagon because natural products just could NOT tame my coarse hair. So, much like Myrna, I started using coney conditioners and found they do wonders for my hair :) It's shinier and softer. As long as I use my Renpure low-poo, it seems as though I have no build-up issues. So there's some encouragement for you -- I've been using cones for months now and my hair looks better than ever!
    whurly girly (2C/3A).
    thick; medium/coarse; low porosity.
    hair that is drier than the sahara desert.

    LOW-POO: Renpure Organics
    CO: L'Oreal EverCreme Cleansing Conditioner
    RO: Renpure Keratin Conditioner. New HG!
    LI: L'Oreal EverSleek Humidity-Defying LI Creme
    Styling: SM Curl Milk, Argan Oil for sealing, sometimes GFPC Gel, some honey for hold, TIGI Control Freak Serum!!
  • SpiralSpunkSpiralSpunk Posts: 243Registered Users
    I've been using cones too and my hair has never felt softer. I'm conflicted as well, but haven't had any issues so far. My scalp also seems to do better with some type of poo regularly (only sulphate free so far).
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    Yeah, I think a lot of us have bought t he CG philospohy lock, stock and barrel, and we are now finding that maybe it is not all correct, or not all of it is right for us. I can understand not using sulfates; I can understand not using hot styling tools daily; I can understand that curls need more moisture. I am not sure I understand that something I put on my hair, according to some, it stuck like glue, and I have to use the equivalent of turpentine to remove it. That does not make sense to me, as I notice that dimethicone and dimethiconol are often in body lotions and face products as well, and I certainly dont see any harm to my face from using such products.
  • Corrina777Corrina777 Posts: 3,193Registered Users
    Well< skin is a little different than hair because skin is constantly shedding and silicones are wonderful for keeping skin moisturized. I don't buy into the idea of silicones completely coating your hair and wreaking havoc. I do believe that not all products work for all people, and I've said before that I've seen women with amazing curls who are not at all CG. I sometimes wonder if it's really more of the technique (avoiding excessive heat and brushing, being gentle with the hair) and awareness (knowing that your hair needs lots of moisture and/or protein) rather than the strict elimination of specific ingredients (sulfates, silicones) that leads to the improved results.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    3a/f/iii
    Modified CG since 11/5/11
    CLEANSE: CJ Daily Fix, DevaCare No-Poo, CHS Treatment Shampoo
    RO: SS Caitlin's Conditioner, CJ Beauticurls Strengthening
    LI: SS Repairing Protein Treatment, CHS Silk Leave-In
    STYLE: Re:Coil, Curl Keeper, Deva Ultra Defining Gel, Curls Rock Amplifier,Sweet Curls Elixirs Okra Gel and Hard Hold Gel, SS Curl Enhancing Jelly and Firm Hold Gel
  • MyrnaMyrna Posts: 2,332Registered Users Curl Neophyte
    I agree, Corinna. Also: I was out to dinner a couple of months ago, and there was a woman with absolutely gorgeous curls. I asked her who cut her hair, and she later texted me that information. I called the salon, and asked if she cuts curly hair dry, and was told she prefers not to. So, that is another area we can perhaps question. On that one, though, it is pretty clear to me that my hair has done better being cut dry, and I am also saving a ton of money.
  • oh.hi.its.stephoh.hi.its.steph Posts: 640Registered Users
    Right, I agree that it's probably 90% technique. I learned to leave my conditioner in longer, use a comb not a brush, don't fry my hair with heat, etc. As long as I'm gentle my hair looks good and grows like a weed, so it's clearly working :)
    whurly girly (2C/3A).
    thick; medium/coarse; low porosity.
    hair that is drier than the sahara desert.

    LOW-POO: Renpure Organics
    CO: L'Oreal EverCreme Cleansing Conditioner
    RO: Renpure Keratin Conditioner. New HG!
    LI: L'Oreal EverSleek Humidity-Defying LI Creme
    Styling: SM Curl Milk, Argan Oil for sealing, sometimes GFPC Gel, some honey for hold, TIGI Control Freak Serum!!
  • rbbrbb Posts: 4,095Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    i don't think all cones are the same. i have long thought that my hair liked the a-cone in the old deva one condition. i would love to find a conditioner with just the a-cone in it. i do low poo once,twice a week, and the a-cone supposedly does not build up.
    any recommendations?

    3a, some 2c & 3b, medium texture, porosity normal, low elasticity :-(
    washing/cowashing, conditioning, protein tx: curl junkie products
    leave in:cj conditioners and treatments as leave in
    styling: cj aloe fix gel, cj pattern pusha, cj honey butta leave in, cj cccc, cj ciab.
    sealants - jane carter nourish & shine
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    rbb wrote: »
    i don't think all cones are the same. i have long thought that my hair liked the a-cone in the old deva one condition. i would love to find a conditioner with just the a-cone in it. i do low poo once,twice a week, and the a-cone supposedly does not build up.
    any recommendations?

    I think GFTN's reformulation has only a-cone. I know a lot of John Frieda stuff has a-cone, and I think Infusium 23 has a-cone. You'll have to double check to make sure it's the only cone, but I think it is in a lot of those cases.
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • lcl0706lcl0706 Posts: 959Registered Users
    Corrina777 wrote: »
    Well< skin is a little different than hair because skin is constantly shedding and silicones are wonderful for keeping skin moisturized. I don't buy into the idea of silicones completely coating your hair and wreaking havoc. I do believe that not all products work for all people, and I've said before that I've seen women with amazing curls who are not at all CG. I sometimes wonder if it's really more of the technique (avoiding excessive heat and brushing, being gentle with the hair) and awareness (knowing that your hair needs lots of moisture and/or protein) rather than the strict elimination of specific ingredients (sulfates, silicones) that leads to the improved results.

    Well said. I shampoo every other day with coco betaine & clarify once a week with SLS (gasp!). My hair has not found one HG product. I have a few I rotate in & out, but for me it's almost ALL technique, less heat, & gentle hair care that has made the difference. The only exception is heavy silicones do make my hair pretty much suck. I wanted to like the SCC mousse everyone raves about but I just can't. The dimethicone is too much for me. So are oils. But tigi's amplifier with cymethicone has been good.
    :wave: fine, thin, normal/(low?) porosity. Mod-CG. Usually I can't co-wash more than 1x a week, & sometimes I have to use T-Gel in rotation due to scalp issues.

    Co-wash: VO5 Volumizing
    Poo: Giovanni 50:50
    RO:TN, Nexxus Youth Renewal, Alba Coconut
    LI: KCKT
    PT: gelatin PT, ION EC
    Stylers: Giovanni mousse, TIGI Curls Rock amplifier (a-cone), Curls Rock Strong Hold Mousse
    Gels: SCC spray gel

    hairsiggy-4-1.jpg
  • Jas76Jas76 Posts: 2,283Registered Users
    I think the "no insoluble cones" rule is more for people who do not poo at all. And I think not pooing at all works more for those who have extremely tight and dry curls.

    I co-was on some days, but I typically low-poo 2-3 times a week. I too use a mild SLS poo once in a while to clarify. Usually I do a pre-poo with it, and add oils to the poo itself to help prevent stripping. And it's typically followed up with a PT/DT. So I know if I were to use cones it would not an much of an issue for me. I think as long as you low-poo with a surficant once a week you won't have much issue with build up, if any at all.

    I think with a lot of the general market poos and condishes, the shampoo AND the condish have cones - typically more than necessary. Plus there is more SLS than needed, and people are using them daily.

    As with most things, moderation may be key, here. As long as the cones are removed once a week or so, and you aren't layering cone upon cone upon cone, there should be no problem.

    Moderation and technique - those seem to be the keys!

    I've been considering giving the new GFTN a try, and using Infusium 23's LI to sort of "super soak" my curls. We'll see. Maybe I'll experiment and report back! ;)
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • rbbrbb Posts: 4,095Registered Users Curl Connoisseur
    jas -- thanks, i'll look them over!

    3a, some 2c & 3b, medium texture, porosity normal, low elasticity :-(
    washing/cowashing, conditioning, protein tx: curl junkie products
    leave in:cj conditioners and treatments as leave in
    styling: cj aloe fix gel, cj pattern pusha, cj honey butta leave in, cj cccc, cj ciab.
    sealants - jane carter nourish & shine