CurlTalk

Another Curls Reformulation

Asian Hair Tea Conditioner and it now has 2 'cones.

I am so annoyed right now, I ordered two bottles of this suff, I even checked on the Curls website first, to make sure the formula hadn't changed. When I recieved my ordered (from a UK distributer, not that site), the new bottle had a list of whole new ingredients. I am so annoyed with this Curls fiasco. I shall not be ordering this again I think.

Anyway, old ingredients: (from website)
Curls exclusive hair tea (purified water, ho shu wu extract, green tea extract, chamomile extract, calendula extract), certified organic aloe barbadensis leaf juice, behentrimonium methosulfate, cetearyl alcohol, ceteareth-20, mango butter, shea butter, panthenol, soy protein, citric acid, methyl paraben, fragrance.

What my bottles say:
Purified water, cetyl alcohol, octyl palmitate, behentrimonium methasulfate, dimethicone, certified organic aloe barbadensis leaf juice, stearamidopropyl dimethylamine, propylene gylcol, cetearyl alcohol, ceteareth-20, hu su wu extract, green tea extract, chamomile extract, calendula extract, mango butter, shea butter, panthenol, soy protein, citric acid, amodimethicone, quaternium-15.


Fogive any spelling mistakes in that list, I wrote them down quickly! Anybody else have a bottle that says this?

TIA!
Think I'm 3b-ish...maybe some 3a there too...plus wavy roots....I'm just a mixed bag!:D CG since August '05
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Comments

  • HippieChicHippieChic Posts: 252Registered Users
    I can't believe they did this to such a good product. I imagine if you call them and let them know that the website ingredients are misleading you could probably return it. Thanks for letting us know. I was going to order some, but i definately won't now!
  • medusahairmedusahair Posts: 3,515Registered Users
    Well they've officially screwed up the last thing I would have ordered from them. That keeps my PJ in line for the Curls line of products anyway.
    It sucks because they used to all be CG with good for your hair ingredients.
    2c/3a?
    Low porosity, medium texture.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2FMedusahair%2F" class="Popup

    If it smells good put it in your hair, if it tastes good spit it out!
  • LavenderCurlsLavenderCurls Posts: 1,477Registered Users
    Yeah, I'm weaning myself off the Curls stuff as well. I had rediscovered the Spiral Curls Cream but the scent had changed (smells like the Ecstasy conditioner which I can't stand!). So after 2-3 uses, I just sold it on the swap board. The cone didn't bother me so much, BUT her stuff did start out being CG friendly but it seems they're adding in cones one by one.

    I also loved the Naturally Enhanced lotion which evolved into [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/CURLS-Curls-Milkshake-p-884.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=Curls-Curls-Milkshake]Milkshake[/buylink], but my hair doesn't like it much.

    So, with all the changes and no warnings, I won't be buying any more which sucks because most of the scents are to die for!
    CG-modified since 4/05
    2b/3a and 3b on occasion!
    Products: The hair aisle in my own cabinets. :roll:
    Best definition winner: KCCC
    Best volume winner: LOOB
  • SnarlsSnarls Posts: 2,537Registered Users
    Mise, since you're in the UK, is returning the product even an option? If you have to pay shipping, it seems like it would be better to try to swap it out with another euro curlie.

    Also, you might want to send an email to Curls and verify the ingredients, I suppose it's possible that the bottle was mislabeled.

    I'm really surprised that silicones are being returned to these products! A year ago, they were all being modified to be CG friendly, weren't they? My perspective is that there is NO shortage of curly hair products with silicones that I can get at local drugstores, salons, etc. so I doubt I would buy a product with the non PEG modified silicones online. Also, my impression was that the Hair Tea Ecstacy is an immensely popular product as it was. :?
    formerly Castella
    (my dogs aren't snarly, my hair is)
  • CelticCurlsCelticCurls Posts: 558Registered Users
    Actually, I believe the original Curls products contained plenty of silicones, including the c-oxane that's so unfriendly to many curlies. Then they expanded the "Pure" line to specifically meet needs of CG'ers, mainly due to their popularity on this site. Thennnn there was the huge 'nanny-gate' drama with the owner of Curls & G&M decided to no longer carry the line. After that, it appears much less emphasis has been placed on the Pure line; it sounds like it was a small customer segment for them anyway. The only product I occasionally buy from them is the Souffle & Body Cream, not b'coz they're great products, but just b'coz I love the scent!
    3B, bra-strap length
    laidback, very-modified CGer
    HG: GF Sleek 'n Shine Leave-in; Alagio
  • lushaholiclushaholic Posts: 2,180Registered Users
    ARRGGGHH!!! This is one of my HG condish/treatments. I LOVE this conditioner! I don't use it daily, but I use it at least once a week and for when I want really nice spirals. This is so upsetting. :( :x
    3a/2c f/mii. pics added 2/3/07
    spingbannerwk6.jpghycoffeeiconuy8.gif
  • lushaholiclushaholic Posts: 2,180Registered Users
    If anyone has any bottles of the 'original' CEAHT formula that they don't want, please let me know. Such timely news as I had used it friday and was reminded of what great results I usually get with it. :? I'm so disappointed.
    3a/2c f/mii. pics added 2/3/07
    spingbannerwk6.jpghycoffeeiconuy8.gif
  • laurabeth33laurabeth33 Posts: 1,443Registered Users
    This is seriously disappointing. It was an excellent-rated condish in my Conditioner Chronicles.

    Sadest to me of the formulation changes (since I poo) is the high-ingred-placed addition of ocytl palmitate, a major pore clogger. Since my hair touches my face a lot, this could be an issue for me. Well, there goes that. :?

    Well, I have about 3oz left back in my bottle. Anybody who wants it, PM me and maybe we can work out a swap of some kind. I like it, but it's not my HG so I can share. :wink:
    2b w/ some 3a
    product tester geek
  • CelticCurlsCelticCurls Posts: 558Registered Users
    I've got at least 1/2 a bottle too. As well as (1/2 bottle Spiral Cream.) I like it, but it doesn't detangle well enough for me. I'd trade for some LaCoupe or Umberto Giannini, neither of which I can get here.
    3B, bra-strap length
    laidback, very-modified CGer
    HG: GF Sleek 'n Shine Leave-in; Alagio
  • MiseMise Posts: 346Registered Users
    Castella wrote:
    Mise, since you're in the UK, is returning the product even an option? If you have to pay shipping, it seems like it would be better to try to swap it out with another euro curlie.


    Also, you might want to send an email to Curls and verify the ingredients, I suppose it's possible that the bottle was mislabeled.

    I'm really surprised that silicones are being returned to these products! A year ago, they were all being modified to be CG friendly, weren't they? My perspective is that there is NO shortage of curly hair products with silicones that I can get at local drugstores, salons, etc. so I doubt I would buy a product with the non PEG modified silicones online. Also, my impression was that the Hair Tea Ecstacy is an immensely popular product as it was. :?

    You're right, I was working it out at the weekend, the place I bought it from (foundationz.co.uk, a very good site I might add) charge you the posting to send it back, which is fair, but it would probably cost me the original product cost to send back.

    Is there an email address I can use to email her? Or would the 'feedback' one on her website do? Just so I can confirm the ingredients.

    Edited to add: I've just checked the curls website again, they've updated the formula for the asian tea conditioner. :(
    Think I'm 3b-ish...maybe some 3a there too...plus wavy roots....I'm just a mixed bag!:D CG since August '05
  • laurabeth33laurabeth33 Posts: 1,443Registered Users
    Mise wrote:
    You're right, I was working it out at the weekend, the place I bought it from (foundationz.co.uk, a very good site I might add) charge you the posting to send it back, which is fair, but it would probably cost me the original product cost to send back.

    I think, and this is just me in my idealistic world, that since the ingreds weren't changed when you purchased the product, they should refund you without any charge to you. If they want it mailed back, it would be at their cost. If they want to pass on mailing, that's their choice. The tricky things to me with this are (A) you didn't get the ingreds from the website you ordered from and (B) since the ingreds are now updated, you'd have to get someone to admit they were incorrect on the date of your order.
    Mise wrote:
    Edited to add: I've just checked the curls website again, they've updated the formula for the asian tea conditioner. :(

    I've heard from some good authorities that some of the members of nc.com are quite close with the owner of Curls. It makes sense that, through the testing process and honest vulnerability that comes from sharing details of a test product that these friendships have grown deep. One or more of them probably let her know that the new formula had hit overseas (since she would have no way of knowing that the UK site had reached a point of distributing the new formula from their stock...though, if she's mailed it out to them, listing both ingred lists could have been of some benefit).

    Unfortunately, as I said above, it removes your evidence unless you printed the page before (and the date the webpage was printed should be on the bottom righthand corner). Again, you'd have to find someone who cares about the ingreds at the Curls site at your UK site.
    2b w/ some 3a
    product tester geek
  • lushaholiclushaholic Posts: 2,180Registered Users
    Not to sound like a broken record because of my disappointment, but I just don't understand the reasoning behind the ingredients change? Does it make it that much cheaper to make? Otherwise, why ruin it?? I just don't get their reasoning at all. They've definitely taken away the last and only item I would have considered ordering from them. :? Good thing I was able to get my most recent bottle off the swapboard.
    3a/2c f/mii. pics added 2/3/07
    spingbannerwk6.jpghycoffeeiconuy8.gif
  • SYBSYB Posts: 305Registered Users
    I am personally hurt by the statement saying that one of or more of us testers probably tipped the owner of Curls off regarding the new ingredient listing of Curls Asian Hair Tea coming out on FOUNDATIONZ first, so that she could could hurry up and change it on her site. That is ABSOLUTELY FALSE! As the owner is responsible for that and not us testers.

    Secondly, there are testers and buyers of Curls products who "may" or "may not" still be members here at NC, after all of this sort of negativity has started regarding this unnecessary bashing of Curls. Every curls formulation change has come about due to customer feedback "via communucation". And Curls has now started selling their products to even more international countries and US Salons than before, due to demands for the products. Most of the people that buy Curls products are not actual NC members, as most of the sales of Curls products actually come from the general masses. And the only real negativity that I have found regarding Curls products and product changes formulations is only coming from one place, this one.

    There is not one hair company that I have ever bought from, that didn't go through formula changes or product discontinuations. So if anyone here can find one then please let me know. I am a tester, but also a buyer of the products, and there are people here that are bashing Curls products that don't even buy from Curls or that have tried none of the current products that Curls has to offer. If you use a product and it doesn't work for you then okay, you do have a right to post about that, but that is as far as it should go here.

    And regarding what ever authorities have told you Laurabeth about members of NC having a deep relationship with Curls, here's my answer. I can tell you this, that we are a very small group, and none of us get paid, get hoards and hoards of free products at out dispense, work for Mahisha as her "Nanny", or have stock in her company. None of us have ever met each other in person, have each other's phone numbers or addresses, or even work as a hair model for the company. We are only people who started out using the products and have had continued success with them. So unless your so-called authorities actually have "real contact" with the owner(Mahisha) on a very personal level,(which by the way none us us testers do), then why make such a statement in the first place, if you can't back it up with the names of such individuals. I only contact Mahisha about any Curls product questions or concerns, when the need arises, by email only. But no, I don't contact Mahisha on a daily basis just to gossip, because she has always maintained a professional relationship with her testers for the 1 1/2 years that I have been one.
    "Curls Tester"
    Products in my current regime: Nioxin Scalp Therapy Shampoo, ORS Replenishing Pak, Curls Whipped Cream, Curls Souffle, Curls Spiral Curls Cream, Curls Milkshake, Curls Quenched, BB(Bonner Brothers) Growth Lotion
  • lushaholiclushaholic Posts: 2,180Registered Users
    As far as I know, neither Jessicurl or Devacurl have changed the ingredients in any of their original products. Devacurl has added new products, but they haven't changed the formulations of any of the original ones. Good curly hair products are hard to find, that's why it's upsetting to some of us when ones we've fallen in love with get reformulated for what some of us consider, the worse. Would be great if Curls could keep their original versions and then have a second line with the added ingredients.
    3a/2c f/mii. pics added 2/3/07
    spingbannerwk6.jpghycoffeeiconuy8.gif
  • medusahairmedusahair Posts: 3,515Registered Users
    Those were the lines I was thinking about too lush, I know I can count on them to be the same every single time.
    My suave stuff has only reformulated on me ONCE in the whole time I've been using them.
    WE hate it and write them and gripe about other products that change and we quit using them never to return again too.
    I think that's the reason we're so loyal to DevaCurl/Care and Jessicurl is we can count on them and they work.
    2c/3a?
    Low porosity, medium texture.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2FMedusahair%2F" class="Popup

    If it smells good put it in your hair, if it tastes good spit it out!
  • SYBSYB Posts: 305Registered Users
    It is good to know that these 2 companies have not gone through product formulations or discontinued any of their products SO FAR, but none of us who use products from any line can "100 percent say with certainty" that the company's owners "will" or won't during its lifetime in business, ever go through product changes based on customer feedback.
    "Curls Tester"
    Products in my current regime: Nioxin Scalp Therapy Shampoo, ORS Replenishing Pak, Curls Whipped Cream, Curls Souffle, Curls Spiral Curls Cream, Curls Milkshake, Curls Quenched, BB(Bonner Brothers) Growth Lotion
  • SnarlsSnarls Posts: 2,537Registered Users
    Syb, have you had a chance to try some of the new formulations? I know you've tried a lot of different products and brands, and your hair responds really well to the Curls line of products. Do you have any reviews of the new tea ecstacy?

    I think for people who shampoo once a week or so, the return of silicones probably isn't earthshattering, but I know---oh, how I know--the pain of losing that HG product :( . I think the old Hair Tea Ecstacy was truly HG for a lot of nc'ers.
    formerly Castella
    (my dogs aren't snarly, my hair is)
  • medusahairmedusahair Posts: 3,515Registered Users
    Well if they change they'd lose my business too if they changed the formula to something unsuitable for our hair or cleansing method.

    Yeah Castella I think it's the ones it's HG for and the CG'ers that it effects the most. It's so hard to find things that work really well and then cone free too. Or heck even if they have cones just works well peiod.
    Oy that's why some get to be such PJ, the search for the perfect product or the perfect replacement product.
    2c/3a?
    Low porosity, medium texture.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2FMedusahair%2F" class="Popup

    If it smells good put it in your hair, if it tastes good spit it out!
  • LavenderCurlsLavenderCurls Posts: 1,477Registered Users
    I just wish there was fair warning of any changes. I had emailed the Curls owner two or three times about when they'd get their next shipment of Spirals Curls Cream as I had given it another go and liked it. This was around the time it was reformulated and I would have thought - or hoped- that she would have mentioned the reformulation and scent change.

    Like Lushaholic said, if they'd leave the old stuff alone but add the new and have a bigger choice/variety, that'd be awesome. But when the changes come basically unannounced, it's a little disappointing.

    Syb, I've always loved reading your reviews and recommendations on how to use the Curls stuff. Even if the customers that use Curls from nc.com is small, maybe putting a bug in her ear about some of the complaints might help? I liked the products I used, but when you can't count on them being there for any length of time, it makes it hard to keep using them not knowing when something is going to be discontinued or changed.
    CG-modified since 4/05
    2b/3a and 3b on occasion!
    Products: The hair aisle in my own cabinets. :roll:
    Best definition winner: KCCC
    Best volume winner: LOOB
  • banjocurlbanjocurl Posts: 1,020Registered Users
    certain ingredients are deal breakers, others are not. in boots curl cream, the pink version changed slightly but not significantly. the white stuff that i sell is the original british formula without cones. however, they made a version to sell in the US at target and cvs in selected markets that had cones in it. for many of us, cones, waxes and petroleum would turn us off to a product. i wish they would GET IT. i would like to hear from curls why they chose to reformulate and people can let her know what they think--Mahisha has always been responsive to her customers.
    Susan suburban NY
    3b going gray, not thick, waist length when wet, a bit below shoulders when dry
    CG since 11/11/04
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2Fbanjolady%2F" class="Popup
    PW: banjo
    HG: suave and honey for co-wash, deva, i use garnier fructis regular CO's or boots pink or white as leave ins and LA looks sport gel. plop w microfiber turban, then curl towel scrunch, then another turban.i sleep with the turban on. little one minute hair styling videos /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fuser%2Flazycurls" class="Popup
  • SYBSYB Posts: 305Registered Users
    Castella, here's all the info regarding Curls Asian Hair Tea Conditioner. I had been away from the boards for a period of time, due to a foot injury, late last year, so I wasn't really spending hardly if any time on the Internet. Most of the time I would only go on the Internet to check my messages, that was all. But here is a quick summary of what happened with Curls Asian Hair Tea conditioner. This is all info that came strictly from the owner, Mahisha. Curls went back to the original formula last year, late summer. They went back to the "original formulation" because it was easier to distribute. Once Mahisha had received countless emails requesting for her to do so, she decided to bring it back. That was a while ago. Curls did have some of the old left, but those are already gone. So yes, this Curls Asian Hair Tea formula that is out on the market now is one that I have used in my head before. And as I have written many times before my hair is very fussy when it comes to using most products that have cones in them, but I have had no problems with any of the Curls formulations that have cones in them. I also have had no problems using Garnier Fructis products and they also have cones in them as well. And also I just starte using another product that has a cone in it called BB(Bonner Brothers) Growth Lotion, either. And yes I have used Curls Cleansing Cream to wash my hair out with at times while using the Curls products as well as Nioxin's Scalp Therapy Shampoo too. And either way I had no problems rinsing any of these products from my hair, including Curls.

    Also, here's another note- Curls products are registered with the FDA's International Export Dept. which is mandatory for exporting. Since Curls is entering more countries this year, Curls needed to get their products into the directory. So when they updated packaging to the new look, they added the true technical terms to the new packaging. You will notice that. It is listed under their news section.

    And if anyone has any further questions, they can always contact Curls for a reply or even if they would like to know more about current happenings with Curls they can always go the Curls website.

    What truly saddens me about this whole issue is how some NC members have actually taken it upon themselves to make public statements to try and defame one comapny that could actually hurt this whole site in the long run legally, if they don't stop. My uncle is a lawyer, so I definitely know of what I speak. And the moderators themselves need to look into this present situation and end it for the better good of this site and its members. If you can not back up what you say 100 percent factually with me regarding negative comments on this board or ever else pertaining to the owner of Curls or anyother line, OR if you are not even a purchaser of a particular line of products and go out of your way to speak negatively about them, then what good is it providing for any anyone here or anywhere else for that matter.

    Everything that I have written about Curls, its products, or its testing team, I can back up 100 percent, to the members, the moderators, or anybody else here, as a matter of fact. As honesty and integrity does and always will continue to mean a lot to me.
    "Curls Tester"
    Products in my current regime: Nioxin Scalp Therapy Shampoo, ORS Replenishing Pak, Curls Whipped Cream, Curls Souffle, Curls Spiral Curls Cream, Curls Milkshake, Curls Quenched, BB(Bonner Brothers) Growth Lotion
  • medusahairmedusahair Posts: 3,515Registered Users
    I don't appreciate threats to anyone on the board. No one is trying to hurt anyone. But thanks for the sensorship, all us Americans that think we live in the land of free speech appreciate it.
    2c/3a?
    Low porosity, medium texture.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2FMedusahair%2F" class="Popup

    If it smells good put it in your hair, if it tastes good spit it out!
  • lushaholiclushaholic Posts: 2,180Registered Users
    Wow. I definitely don't see any defaming going on. I see consumers who are unhappy about some of their favorite products being changed. It happens here all the time. A smart company will want to know when their consumers are unhappy so that they can improve their product line. SYB, I'm not sure why you went back and added that part on to your post, but it doesn't seem necessary at all. I was all ears and understanding until then. :?
    3a/2c f/mii. pics added 2/3/07
    spingbannerwk6.jpghycoffeeiconuy8.gif
  • KurleeKurlee Posts: 1,354Registered Users
    So they changed the conditioner too... Well, I can't use it for the soy anyways.


    I find it weird how there has been so much odd stuff about this company on the board. Some testers seem to take any bad stuff very peronal to me. Gives the company bad PR in my eyes.
    There is always good and bad stuff about all products. They do not fit all. That's just the way it is. I can't imagine that people just imagine things up about bad experiences and post them here. And there are people who have bad luck with other companies , write about it here and no other testers "attack" those people.
    I don't get it. Something is fishy to me with it all. I have felt that way a very long time.

  • alisons79alisons79 Posts: 680Registered Users
    Kurlee wrote:

    I find it weird how there has been so much odd stuff about this company on the board. Some testers seem to take any bad stuff very peronal to me. Gives the company bad PR in my eyes.
    There is always good and bad stuff about all products. They do not fit all. That's just the way it is. I can't imagine that people just imagine things up about bad experiences and post them here. And there are people who have bad luck with other companies , write about it here and no other testers "attack" those people.
    I don't get it. Something is fishy to me with it all. I have felt that way a very long time.



    ITA!!!
    3A/3B
    I love Jessicurl HCC, Jessicurl Too Shea, KCKT, KCCC, CK and HESMU...but it took a LOT of trial error to get to these products that consistently work for ME.
  • medusahairmedusahair Posts: 3,515Registered Users
    I agree Kurlee
    2c/3a?
    Low porosity, medium texture.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2FMedusahair%2F" class="Popup

    If it smells good put it in your hair, if it tastes good spit it out!
  • laurabeth33laurabeth33 Posts: 1,443Registered Users
    I'm a personally very sorry that the topic of any negative against this one company gets esculated so easily so that many don't feel comfortable posting what they would, were it any other company.
    2b w/ some 3a
    product tester geek
  • SnarlsSnarls Posts: 2,537Registered Users
    :(

    Oh dear. I might have been misunderstood.

    Syb, I didn't mean to put you on the spot at all. Honestly, I thought that this was a new formulation, and you could tell us what you think about it. I remember you did some excellent reviews of the [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/CURLS-Curls-Milkshake-p-884.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=Curls-Curls-Milkshake]Milkshake[/buylink]. That is really all I meant. And not just Curls products, I enjoy reading all the reviews you've posted and I think you are very fair when you assess a product. Anyway, I wasn't trying to being snarky and I'm sorry if it sounded that way.

    Every time an HG is lost, we go through this process of shock, denial, anger, bargaining (please! take out the cones!) and finally acceptance. Well, we never reeeeeally accept the loss of a good product. The positive thing that I take from this thread is that Curls created such a great product that so many people feel passionately about!
    formerly Castella
    (my dogs aren't snarly, my hair is)
  • GretchenGretchen Administrator Posts: 8,470Administrators, Moderators Administrator
    SYB wrote:

    What truly saddens me about this whole issue is how some NC members have actually taken it upon themselves to make public statements to try and defame one comapny that could actually hurt this whole site in the long run legally, if they don't stop. My uncle is a lawyer, so I definitely know of what I speak. And the moderators themselves need to look into this present situation and end it for the better good of this site and its members.

    Actually, we're in pretty good shape as far as legal representation goes, so while I'm sure your advice is well-meant, it's unwarranted, and just makes posters uncomfortable, so I'll ask you to cease.

    As the owner of this board, I'm quite fine with posters commenting about companies and products; that's actually one of the primary functions of the board. So again, while I'm sure your intentions are good, please allow us to moderate our own board.

    Gretchen
    NaturallyCurly.com co-founder
    3A

    You are beautiful!
  • KaiaKaia Posts: 8,815Registered Users
    lushaholic wrote:
    Wow. I definitely don't see any defaming going on. I see consumers who are unhappy about some of their favorite products being changed. It happens here all the time. A smart company will want to know when their consumers are unhappy so that they can improve their product line. SYB, I'm not sure why you went back and added that part on to your post, but it doesn't seem necessary at all. I was all ears and understanding until then. :?
    I was all ears until that last part of SYB's post too. Completely unnecessary and insulting. People criticize Deva products all the time for having cones in them when Lorraine was originally against cones, yet I don't see anyone threatening legal action. This is a discussion forum, so we discuss. None of us are going off this board and making any announcements to try to "defame" the Curls business.
    *Poster formerly known as Bailey422*

    Here's all you have to know about men and women: women are crazy, men are stupid. And the main reason women are crazy is that men are stupid. ~ George Carlin
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