How often is too often?

KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
My hair needs some SOS today. I've been following CG routine for 5 days. I have been actually just scrubbing scalp with my fingers, no conditioner, or just very light conditioner ( as in coating my tips) and then scrubbing scalp very gently. Following that is a light coating of conditioner (VO5 Tea Therapy in Chamomile), plopping using FOTE AV gel mixed 50-50 with water, diffusing and then spritzing lightly with Ouidad Finishing Spray, which has dimethicone copolyonol, which is supposed to be CG friendly. I've actually only used the Ouidad the last 2 days, but using only VO5 conditioner and FOTE gel.

At this point, my hair is stringy. Roots are oily as is shaft from about 1/3 of the way out of the root. I"m pondering either a Lemon-Aid or baking soda rinse. With the oil as it is, I'm thinking baking soda. How often would be too often for the baking soda?

Is this what I should be expecting during the transition from shampoo to no-poo or even mod CG? Oily and stringy after several days?

My hair was great for the first couple of days. It's become progressively more oily with each day without shampoo. Comments? Suggestion?

Thanks.
fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.

Comments

  • LadyCurlyLocksLadyCurlyLocks Registered Users Posts: 341
    First off - what's your hair type? We could probably be able to give better advice if we knew you were 2b, 2c, or 3c, etc...

    Most curlies find that their hair gets worse before it gets better when first starting CG. For some people it takes a month or more before they start seeing great results, but find that the results were worth putting up with bad hair for a little bit. If you've been using shampoos with harsh surfecants (sulfates) in them for a long time, then your scalp is most likely dried out, and the lack of sulfates is putting your scalp will begin to release lots of oil to try and start healing itself. Don't worry, your scalp will find a healthy balance after it's healed. Also, did you clarify before starting CG? If you haven't, you might want to try Suave Daily Clarifying and then go back to your CG routine. It could just be that your hair is laden with silicones, and not performing well. HTH, and good luck going CG!
    3B Corkscrew... I'm back on the boards now! Just got The Big Chop on Monday, pics coming soon.
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    First off - what's your hair type? We could probably be able to give better advice if we knew you were 2b, 2c, or 3c, etc...

    Most curlies find that their hair gets worse before it gets better when first starting CG. For some people it takes a month or more before they start seeing great results, but find that the results were worth putting up with bad hair for a little bit. If you've been using shampoos with harsh surfecants (sulfates) in them for a long time, then your scalp is most likely dried out, and the lack of sulfates is putting your scalp will begin to release lots of oil to try and start healing itself. Don't worry, your scalp will find a healthy balance after it's healed. Also, did you clarify before starting CG? If you haven't, you might want to try Suave Daily Clarifying and then go back to your CG routine. It could just be that your hair is laden with silicones, and not performing well. HTH, and good luck going CG!

    Thanks! I don't know if it was a clarifying rinse, but my last shampoo was just under a week ago and I used the Herbal Essences Totally Twisted, which does have sulfates but has sodium laureth sulfate and then also the cocamidyl betaine or whatever it is called. I've also done a Lemon-Aid rinse in the last few weeks and a baking soda rinse last week. I don't think I added enough baking soda. I'd used the baking soda to clarify.


    Thanks again!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • teela1978teela1978 Registered Users Posts: 278
    You might want to try using more conditioner on your scalp when you wash, it does a suprisingly good job of getting rid of exccess oil. You might want to also think about ditching the ouidad spray, dimethicone copolyonol shouldn't build up too bad, but it's not all that easy to get out either. Good luck!
    Fine Wavy (2a)
    Weeklyish shampoo with CO's inbetween to keep down the grease.
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    First off - what's your hair type? We could probably be able to give better advice if we knew you were 2b, 2c, or 3c, etc...

    Most curlies find that their hair gets worse before it gets better when first starting CG. For some people it takes a month or more before they start seeing great results, but find that the results were worth putting up with bad hair for a little bit. If you've been using shampoos with harsh surfecants (sulfates) in them for a long time, then your scalp is most likely dried out, and the lack of sulfates is putting your scalp will begin to release lots of oil to try and start healing itself. Don't worry, your scalp will find a healthy balance after it's healed. Also, did you clarify before starting CG? If you haven't, you might want to try Suave Daily Clarifying and then go back to your CG routine. It could just be that your hair is laden with silicones, and not performing well. HTH, and good luck going CG!

    I'm really sorry! For some reason I thought I put that in my initial post.
    I realize I didn't.

    I have a lanky, wavy canopy with very lazy S-waves that were actually beautifully defined yesterday. Starting from the ROOT which is something I usually don't see!

    My underlayers have more defined waves and sometimes even very, very lanky spirals, usually closer to my face and where I might normally have bangs, as well as by my ears. Very, very occasionally I even find actual curls, but they don't stay long at all. I have fine hair with dandruff in the winter and before CG I used to find that I'd need a shampoo nearly every day. I'd been trying to stretch and go at least 2 days without shampoo.

    This is actually my first full week with CG. Before this, I tried 2x before, but each time learned that I was doing something that wasn't making it a CG routine. I used shampoo a few times in those weeks, but cut down on the amount significantly and diluted it A LOT!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    teela1978 wrote:
    You might want to try using more conditioner on your scalp when you wash, it does a suprisingly good job of getting rid of exccess oil. You might want to also think about ditching the ouidad spray, dimethicone copolyonol shouldn't build up too bad, but it's not all that easy to get out either. Good luck!

    I'm very much with you re: the Ouidad spray. I do think that's part of my problem, at least for me with my fine hair.

    I had backed off on the amt. of conditioner, as I am thinking my hair is becoming over-conditioned and that maybe this is contributing to the problem of oiliness.

    I was going to say that before, when I was trying the CG routine a few weeks ago, the conditioner was not doing a good job of ridding me of the excess oil. However, considering that I was still using products with silicones in them, it wouldn't be fair to say that.

    I've put in an ACV. Hair still feels oily, but there's a different feel to it that I don't exactly know how to explain. It doesn't feel gooey-oily, it feels much more slippery. I've put in FOTE AV gel and am now reaching the end of my plopping time ( I REALLY like plopping!). Am about to blow dry and will keep y'all updated.

    Teela and Ladylocks, thanks so much for responding.
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Katerina wrote:
    teela1978 wrote:
    You might want to try using more conditioner on your scalp when you wash, it does a suprisingly good job of getting rid of exccess oil. You might want to also think about ditching the ouidad spray, dimethicone copolyonol shouldn't build up too bad, but it's not all that easy to get out either. Good luck!

    I'm very much with you re: the Ouidad spray. I do think that's part of my problem, at least for me with my fine hair.

    I had backed off on the amt. of conditioner, as I am thinking my hair is becoming over-conditioned and that maybe this is contributing to the problem of oiliness.

    I was going to say that before, when I was trying the CG routine a few weeks ago, the conditioner was not doing a good job of ridding me of the excess oil. However, considering that I was still using products with silicones in them, it wouldn't be fair to say that.

    I've put in an ACV. Hair still feels oily, but there's a different feel to it that I don't exactly know how to explain. It doesn't feel gooey-oily, it feels much more slippery. I've put in FOTE AV gel and am now reaching the end of my plopping time ( I REALLY like plopping!). Am about to blow dry and will keep y'all updated.

    Teela and Ladylocks, thanks so much for responding.

    My hair still felt greasy today, and I had considered just skipping a shower today. Perhaps ultimately I should have done that, but I decided against doing so and had a baking soda (baso) rinse instead in the shower.

    I wasn't necessarily planning to do a baso rinse in the shower. I did make one and bring it, though. Teela, I took to heart your remark about using more conditioner for the wash, but I did not find the excess oil going. It only felt waxier than yesterday. I did use more conditioner than normal to wash my hair. With it feeling so waxy, I put in an initial baking soda rinse. (Sorry, just can bring myself to use the initials here!) The first time around I don't think I left it on long enough. I rinsed it and put on more conditioner atop that. It still felt really waxy, so I put the rest of the baso rinse through my hair. Imagine my surprise when I felt little clumps of baso on the top of my head! Apparently, it didn't dissolve fully, and that might be why the first rinse still left me feeling waxy. I massaged the clumps into my hairline and by the nape and the ears, where it felt the very waxiest. I let it stay on for a good 2-3 minutes, then rinsed it. I don't think I rinsed it very thoroughly, because the conditioner didn't feel "normal" when I put it on my hair. It felt like it had baso in it. I let the conditioner sit for a good 2 minutes, and rinsed. I decided to add a bit more conditioner, and I didn't thoroughly rinse it like I normally do.

    So, I hope I haven't damaged my hair. I have one very lanky, clinging spiral on one side of my head, but otherwise, I don't even have Veronica Lake waves! I did plop, leaving my towel on for a good hour. There were nice looking curls when I removed the towel, but I couldn't diffuse and I hadn't put in AV gel. Maybe I should have put in gel.

    So, I have hair that feel clean, is shiny, smells nice, but has very little wave. What was there fell out of my hair when it dried completely. It's snowing here today, so maybe the weather is playing a part in the waves having drooped nearly completely.

    I hope I wasn't presumptuous with the baking soda rinse. Tomorrow is day 7 of my first CG week, and I really, really wanted to get through the week without a shampoo. However, I wanted hair that wasn't oily and/or waxy for a 3rd day in a row.

    So, that's my update. Your turn, ladies. Thanks!!!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • tinabcurlytinabcurly Registered Users Posts: 545
    Katerina--
    I'm still fairly new at this-- (only 3 mths) but here's what I've learned....
    Cowash everyday until your scalp gets used to no shampoo then taper off. Also, scrub your scalp well & continue to massage your scalp while rinsing to make sure the cowash is rinsed completely off your scalp.

    It was a month before I could cowash only once a week. Some here have been CG for years & cowash daily. Everyone's hair's different- you need to listen to your hair.

    Which condish are using to cowash? (If you said, I'm sorry I missed it...) Maybe it's not cleansing enough? I started off with Suave Aloe Vera & my scalp was oily too. After the first week, I switched to VO5 Kiwi & Lime & that made a HUGE difference. [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-No-Poo-p-53.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-nopoo]DevaCurl No Poo[/buylink] is very cleansing too. Maybe you need a gentle poo-- [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-LowPoo-p-54.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-lowpoo]DevaCurl Low Poo[/buylink], [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/Jessicurl-Hair-Cleansing-Cream-p-103.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=jessicurl-hair-cleansing-cream]Jessicurl Hair Cleansing Cream[/buylink].

    HalfWavyHalfCurly has great advice & product recommendations so hopefully she'll chime in too.

    HTH! Good luck!!
    3a/b mix
    pw:curlyqs
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    tinabcurly wrote:
    Katerina--
    I'm still fairly new at this-- (only 3 mths) but here's what I've learned....
    Cowash everyday until your scalp gets used to no shampoo then taper off. Also, scrub your scalp well & continue to massage your scalp while rinsing to make sure the cowash is rinsed completely off your scalp.

    It was a month before I could cowash only once a week. Some here have been CG for years & cowash daily. Everyone's hair's different- you need to listen to your hair.

    Which condish are using to cowash? (If you said, I'm sorry I missed it...) Maybe it's not cleansing enough? I started off with Suave Aloe Vera & my scalp was oily too. After the first week, I switched to VO5 Kiwi & Lime & that made a HUGE difference. [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-No-Poo-p-53.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-nopoo]DevaCurl No Poo[/buylink] is very cleansing too. Maybe you need a gentle poo-- [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-LowPoo-p-54.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-lowpoo]DevaCurl Low Poo[/buylink], [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/Jessicurl-Hair-Cleansing-Cream-p-103.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=jessicurl-hair-cleansing-cream]Jessicurl Hair Cleansing Cream[/buylink].

    HalfWavyHalfCurly has great advice & product recommendations so hopefully she'll chime in too.

    HTH! Good luck!!

    Thanks, tinabcurly. For the past week, I've been using VO5 Tea Therapy Chamomile. I have been using a simple spray gel of 50-50 water and FOTE aloe vera gel. I wonder if I need to consider the KL conditioner.

    I've never been good at figuring out what is the best product for my hair, from gels to sprays to shampoos, and it's been a real journey for me BEFORE considering CG! With all these new brands and kinds to consider, I'm not real sure which is best for my hair type, and I haven't found reading the labels to be the most helpful for identifying which shampoo or conditioner serves what kind of hair type best. On one product line, I found the descriptions to be very generic and of little help to me.

    Thanks again.........I definitely appreciate it!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    I agree that the VO5 K&L may be better for you. In the meantime, you may want to add a teaspoon or more of "baso" to the TT each time you wash your hair; you must rinse out very well because that will be an alkaline mixture, then follow with your normal finishing CO.

    An alternative that is acid (which helps close the cuticle thus leaving the hair shinier) is to add a teaspoon of lemon juice instead. This would make a milder "Lemon-Aid" but powerful enough to remove excess oil from your hair. So you don't have to be squeezing lemons, your best bet would be to get either Minute Maid's frozen juice (should be in the same freezer as oj) or reconstituted lemon or lime juice. But if you already have a lemon at home, just cut one small slice to squeeze the juice out of it with your hand and wrap the rest of the lemon tightly with a small piece of clear plastic wrap, then put back in the fridge, that way you can cut another slice on your next CO-wash (or use the rest to marinate chicken or fish along with a seasoned salt).
    :wink:
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    I agree that the VO5 K&L may be better for you. In the meantime, you may want to add a teaspoon or more of "baso" to the TT each time you wash your hair; you must rinse out very well because that will be an alkaline mixture, then follow with your normal finishing CO.

    An alternative that is acid (which helps close the cuticle thus leaving the hair shinier) is to add a teaspoon of lemon juice instead. This would make a milder "Lemon-Aid" but powerful enough to remove excess oil from your hair. So you don't have to be squeezing lemons, your best bet would be to get either Minute Maid's frozen juice (should be in the same freezer as oj) or reconstituted lemon or lime juice. But if you already have a lemon at home, just cut one small slice to squeeze the juice out of it with your hand and wrap the rest of the lemon tightly with a small piece of clear plastic wrap, then put back in the fridge, that way you can cut another slice on your next CO-wash (or use the rest to marinate chicken or fish along with a seasoned salt).
    :wink:

    I know, baso looks weird, doesn't it? :lol: You know what the intials are, though. :lol: Baking soda is surely not ........well, you know. :wink:

    Thanks very much for the input about the lemons AND the baso in the CO. (i'm going to have to get used to that abbreviation. I keep thinking of the military term commanding officer; I'm a former military wife.).

    I'll experiment with the baso and the lemon and see how it turns out. Yesterday I had a terrible problem with the baso not dissolving properly in the water.....and I started out with hot water, not warm, to dissolve the soda into the water, then letting it cool. Do I want to be adding a tiny bit of hot water to the soda before I add it to the CO?

    Thanks again!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • Oregano  (formerly babywavy)Oregano (formerly babywavy) Registered Users Posts: 5,297 Curl Neophyte
    Just wanted to pipe in and add to what others have said about co-washing. While your scalp is normalizing itself, you will actually do better if you co-wash more often rather than less. I know you think that the conditioner is causing to additional oil, but actually it's going to break down the oil that is building up on your scalp.

    As your doing water washes, and massaging your scalp, your stimulating your roots to produce more oil. This is great if you need to moisture, but if you are getting too greasy, it will help to add lots of conditioner to your fingers, and really scrub your scalp, as if it were shampoo.

    If you're using V05 K&L as suggested, you'll notice a much cleaner feeling. Not co-washing, or skipping showers all together is going to allow the oils to build up and just sit on your scalp and roots, and this is probably why you feel greasy.
    ~ the artist formerly known as babywavy ~

    Please excuse any typos. For the time being, we are blaming it on my computer.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I didn't get online during the weekend.

    It's OK to add the "baso" to the CO without dissolving it, this way it has a mild exfoliating effect on the scalp too.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Sorry I didn't reply sooner, I didn't get online during the weekend.

    It's OK to add the "baso" to the CO without dissolving it, this way it has a mild exfoliating effect on the scalp too.

    Thanks. I did that this a.m., maybe just a teaspoon of the baso or even perhaps less, mixed in with the usual amt. of CO.

    My scalp is starting to feel OH so much less itchier now. For a while there, I thought I either had lice or fleas, it was so itchy. I thought it would drive me nuts. That was last week. Today is day 11. I have never, ever gone this long without using shampoo.

    HalfWavy, I still need to have our H2O tested, and so am going to get a test kit. In the meanwhile, I know that I can rinse our metal pot lids, knives or silverware with clear H2O and it will dry spotty. There is etching on my husband's glass tumblers. I suspect we have hard water. He states that our water ( and we have well water) is acidic.

    I have a new problem. My curls are drooping within an hour and are gone within a few hours. Today I went to the doctor for an emergency. I diffused before I left. I had definite waves. I met my husband about 3 hours later and you couldn't tell I had even put gel in my hair. The waves were so limp. By this time now, the waves are limp, lanky and down at the end of the shaft. The top portion of the shaft is huge S-shaped with little definition.

    I don't know if I'm using too much gel, not enough gel, what the deal is. This morning I didn't get to plop as long as I'd like, and I had to diffuse more, but this has been an on-going problem since last week.

    Is it gel? Too much CO? Not enough CO?

    Thanks!!!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Question: Have you read the CG book? I'm asking because the book mentions that itching is a sign of scalp healing from shampoo dryness/irritation so it's nothing to worry about. In your case I think you were not using enough CO for washing though. Also, if I were you, as long as I could afford it I'd go for a better quality CO.

    Having your water tested is a good idea, the spotting is a sign of excess minerals. When you mentioned that your husband thinks your water is acidic I was a bit puzzled because aicds dissolve minerals so I did a search and found a site that taught me something "new". I read that calcium carbonate dissolves faster in acidic water (after rainfall) and the minerals remain separate due to "repulsive forces" until certain conditions, such as loss of pressure (as when the water comes out of the shower, faucets, etc.,), cause gases to escape, increasing the water's pH, thus reducing the "repulsive forces" so the ions can rejoin and leave the solution (confusing yet interesting stuff!). By the way, in case it interests you, that site sells a magnetic water softening system that's not too costly and doesn't need the constant buying of bags of salt. Since I'm not a chemist or physicist I can't say for sure if it really works but I think it would be worth further investigating.

    If you haven't changed anything in your routine and are still using the FOTEAVG as your "styler", well, let me tell you that when I first heard of it I was very excited when I finally found it but was very disappointed the first time I used it because it actually "weakened" my curls down to mere waves and I really didn't notice any hold whatsoever. HOWEVER, I soon learned here that the solution was to add honey to it, so on my next try I mixed a separate portion with a few drops of it in a little bowl, I applied it and diffused and "voilà", great hold and zero frizz!

    Overdoing the honey would cause a hard and impossible to break crunch (especially at the crown) so it's better to be cautious at first. Some people report even better results with agave nectar (available at health food stores) which apparently doesn't cause hardening if one uses a little too much. But I remembered you wrote in the "Curly Girl laboratory" thread that you have honey at home so I would recommend that you use no more than 3 drops of honey per tablespoon of FOTEAVG and see how it goes.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Question: Have you read the CG book? I'm asking because the book mentions that itching is a sign of scalp healing from shampoo dryness/irritation so it's nothing to worry about. In your case I think you were not using enough CO for washing though. Also, if I were you, as long as I could afford it I'd go for a better quality CO.

    Having your water tested is a good idea, the spotting is a sign of excess minerals. When you mentioned that your husband thinks your water is acidic I was a bit puzzled because aicds dissolve minerals so I did a search and found a site that taught me something "new". I read that calcium carbonate dissolves faster in acidic water (after rainfall) and the minerals remain separate due to "repulsive forces" until certain conditions, such as loss of pressure (as when the water comes out of the shower, faucets, etc.,), cause gases to escape, increasing the water's pH, thus reducing the "repulsive forces" so the ions can rejoin and leave the solution (confusing yet interesting stuff!). By the way, in case it interests you, that site sells a magnetic water softening system that's not too costly and doesn't need the constant buying of bags of salt. Since I'm not a chemist or physicist I can't say for sure if it really works but I think it would be worth further investigating.

    If you haven't changed anything in your routine and are still using the FOTEAVG as your "styler", well, let me tell you that when I first heard of it I was very excited when I finally found it but was very disappointed the first time I used it because it actually "weakened" my curls down to mere waves and I really didn't notice any hold whatsoever. HOWEVER, I soon learned here that the solution was to add honey to it, so on my next try I mixed a separate portion with a few drops of it in a little bowl, I applied it and diffused and "voilà", great hold and zero frizz!

    Overdoing the honey would cause a hard and impossible to break crunch (especially at the crown) so it's better to be cautious at first. Some people report even better results with agave nectar (available at health food stores) which apparently doesn't cause hardening if one uses a little too much. But I remembered you wrote in the "Curly Girl laboratory" thread that you have honey at home so I would recommend that you use no more than 3 drops of honey per tablespoon of FOTEAVG and see how it goes.

    I did read the CG book, more than once. I think that mentioning the itch factor was just a way of telling about my progress on the routine!

    I'm still Co-washing daily; maybe it's time to start co-washing every other day? Or maybe I need to start trying that NEXT week, which will mark the start of week 3.

    I'll add the honey to the gel. I'm using a 50-50 mix of gel and water. Maybe this is too much gel?

    As for the scientific aspect, would you please post the link or send it to me via pm?

    We have been having a drought here in OK for some time now. I think we are in the 3rd year of a 10 yr. drought cycle. Water pressure from all outlets is low...........showers, sinks. It takes forever to fill a bath tub and to fill the washer tub to do laundry bec. the pressure is low. Would that be making it difficult to reunite the ions based on what you learned?

    Thank you for doing that search. I definitely appreciate it. I am so unsuccessful with archival searches here on this site, it frustrates me at times.

    After I've gotten the no-poo routine underhand and have become more familiar with it, what should I expect when I think "feeling clean"? Squeaky like before? Oily but not gunky? And definitely not waxy, right? I still get this waxy feeling at times.

    You have no idea how much I appreciate your help and support, and that of the other women who've chimed in so supportively. You might have figured it out by now, but when it comes to my hair, I'm just absolutely clueless!!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    babywavy wrote:
    Just wanted to pipe in and add to what others have said about co-washing. While your scalp is normalizing itself, you will actually do better if you co-wash more often rather than less. I know you think that the conditioner is causing to additional oil, but actually it's going to break down the oil that is building up on your scalp.

    As your doing water washes, and massaging your scalp, your stimulating your roots to produce more oil. This is great if you need to moisture, but if you are getting too greasy, it will help to add lots of conditioner to your fingers, and really scrub your scalp, as if it were shampoo.

    If you're using V05 K&L as suggested, you'll notice a much cleaner feeling. Not co-washing, or skipping showers all together is going to allow the oils to build up and just sit on your scalp and roots, and this is probably why you feel greasy.

    Just wanted to say thanks for the help! I most surely appreciate if! I've taken yours and Teela's advice and started to add more CO at wash time for now, til I I find I can start to cut back.

    Thanks again!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    I probably did see that you'd read the book but my memory "ain't" so good, I also read a lot of threads which makes it even harder for me to remember all personal details. :?

    Lorraine Massey stated a goal in the book of just doing a CO-wash every week to 10 days but in a chat or maybe an interview she mentioned she'd gone as long as 3 weeks without a wash so I would think she'd expect a lot of curlies to be like her... Since at the end of the first 3 weeks ideally we should be doing only one weekly wash and only water rinsing and conditioning the rest of the time, I think "technically" you are a bit behind schedule as normally it's best to switch to CO-washing every other time you wet your hair.

    I'd never heard of anyone else diluting the FOTEAVG before so, no, I don't think you're using too much gel at all. Now that I noticed that, I'm wondering if part of the reason why your curls didn't last had to do with that too!

    I'm sending you a PM in a little bit with the link I mentioned. I'm sorry I can't really answer your question about how general low water pressure affects the ions, what I read referred to changes of pressure as the water is released. I'm sure you can e-mail the people at that site and ask them.

    Well water is notorious for often being hard and from what I just saw there can be several other minerals involved, not just calcium carbonate but the results of your water test will tell you for sure. I remember my mother lived in a house that had well water and when you put it in a basin and let it sit for a while it would leave a grainy white "powder" at the bottom when you poured off the water, I hated washing my hair over there!

    When I first got on the internet I had no idea what a "search" was so I asked my son the 'puter geek :lol:. He never has a simple answer for anything so he started naming search engines and confused the heck out of me so at first I thought searching was another word for "frustration". But then I noticed that the MSN home page had a Search feature and since I'm naturally curious I began experimenting with it. I'd just enter words in the order I figured a question would be answered (or expressed in an article) and began having great success. I got so good at it my son has asked me to do searches for him, heh, heh, heh!

    Normally, when doing a CO-wash our hair should not feel squeaky (that is actually BAD), nor oily, gunky or waxy either. It should feel very clean, fresh and soft.

    You owe the waxy feeling to the combo of your CO and water. I've seen this happen so many times to CG beginners that now I immediately suspect the person has a hard water problem. I began making this observation when I was puzzled as to why people with similar hair types were either loving Suave or hating it. It occurred to me the only possible variable was the water each person had, a little more observation revealed the "haters" had hard water or even slightly so. Hard water has a higher concentration of minerals so that was the key that I had to link to whatever Suave COs had that did not mix well with them. I quickly remembered something I'd read in a nutrition book: when certain fats mix with calcium they can form a hard "soap". If you look at a bar of soap it really has the consistency of wax, right? COs like Suave, VO5 and White Rain are inexpensive because besides containing a lot of water they very likely rely on the fatty alcohols (that emulsify the mixture and carry the other ingredients) for the bulk of the product. I figured it is very possible that when they mix with the minerals in water they create a waxy residue that just sits on the hair.

    Well, let's extend the thanks to Michelle and Gretchen for having had the great idea of starting this site. It gives us all the opportunity to share our experiences, and because we older curlies had to go through more "suffering" with our hair, we've developed a lot of empathy towards our fellow curlies. I personally feel that the more pretty and well-behaved curls there are out there the faster the world will realize CURLS REALLY RULE!

    :wink:
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    I probably did see that you'd read the book but my memory "ain't" so good, I also read a lot of threads which makes it even harder for me to remember all personal details. :?

    Lorraine Massey stated a goal in the book of just doing a CO-wash every week to 10 days but in a chat or maybe an interview she mentioned she'd gone as long as 3 weeks without a wash so I would think she'd expect a lot of curlies to be like her... Since at the end of the first 3 weeks ideally we should be doing only one weekly wash and only water rinsing and conditioning the rest of the time, I think "technically" you are a bit behind schedule as normally it's best to switch to CO-washing every other time you wet your hair.

    I'd never heard of anyone else diluting the FOTEAVG before so, no, I don't think you're using too much gel at all. Now that I noticed that, I'm wondering if part of the reason why your curls didn't last had to do with that too!

    I'm sending you a PM in a little bit with the link I mentioned. I'm sorry I can't really answer your question about how general low water pressure affects the ions, what I read referred to changes of pressure as the water is released. I'm sure you can e-mail the people at that site and ask them.

    Well water is notorious for often being hard and from what I just saw there can be several other minerals involved, not just calcium carbonate but the results of your water test will tell you for sure. I remember my mother lived in a house that had well water and when you put it in a basin and let it sit for a while it would leave a grainy white "powder" at the bottom when you poured off the water, I hated washing my hair over there!

    When I first got on the internet I had no idea what a "search" was so I asked my son the 'puter geek :lol:. He never has a simple answer for anything so he started naming search engines and confused the heck out of me so at first I thought searching was another word for "frustration". But then I noticed that the MSN home page had a Search feature and since I'm naturally curious I began experimenting with it. I'd just enter words in the order I figured a question would be answered (or expressed in an article) and began having great success. I got so good at it my son has asked me to do searches for him, heh, heh, heh!

    Normally, when doing a CO-wash our hair should not feel squeaky (that is actually BAD), nor oily, gunky or waxy either. It should feel very clean, fresh and soft.

    You owe the waxy feeling to the combo of your CO and water. I've seen this happen so many times to CG beginners that now I immediately suspect the person has a hard water problem. I began making this observation when I was puzzled as to why people with similar hair types were either loving Suave or hating it. It occurred to me the only possible variable was the water each person had, a little more observation revealed the "haters" had hard water or even slightly so. Hard water has a higher concentration of minerals so that was the key that I had to link to whatever Suave COs had that did not mix well with them. I quickly remembered something I'd read in a nutrition book: when certain fats mix with calcium they can form a hard "soap". If you look at a bar of soap it really has the consistency of wax, right? COs like Suave, VO5 and White Rain are inexpensive because besides containing a lot of water they very likely rely on the fatty alcohols (that emulsify the mixture and carry the other ingredients) for the bulk of the product. I figured it is very possible that when they mix with the minerals in water they create a waxy residue that just sits on the hair.

    Well, let's extend the thanks to Michelle and Gretchen for having had the great idea of starting this site. It gives us all the opportunity to share our experiences, and because we older curlies had to go through more "suffering" with our hair, we've developed a lot of empathy towards our fellow curlies. I personally feel that the more pretty and well-behaved curls there are out there the faster the world will realize CURLS REALLY RULE!

    :wink:

    Thank you so much for all the info. At this point, after doing the CO wash, I'm having somewhere between an oily feeling and a waxy feel. Not super oily, mind you, but then again, I'm used to a squeaky-clean feel in my hair.

    This morning it seemed to take an awful lot of CO to wash my hair, and even then, it didn't come out feeling "clean". There was still a slight oily feel to it when I was done. It's been like that for as long as I've been using the AVO5 TT CO. I realize now I wasn't using enough CO, but I think I might have used too much this time. Consequently, I didn't use a finishing CO like I do. Normally, I CO wash ( with the TT) and then use a slight amount of the TT to condition.

    The TT has 2 fatty alcohols which I've identified: cetyl alcohol and stearyl alcohol. I've just learned that stearalkonium chloride ( aka steralkonium chloride and stearal konium chloride) is not a fatty acid, but it has a very high dissolution point. It won't dissolve in water until the water reaches 180 degrees F. :shock: THAT might be the culprit as well. In addition, some judge stearalkonium to be toxic.

    So, from what you are saying, maybe the fatty alcohols are acting like the silicones, at least for me? TT has 2 fatty alcohols, and additionally has an ingredient which only dissolves in very, very hot water.

    TT may work well on others, but I know it's not for me. :( Back to the drawing board for me.

    A thought, though. Water softening salts are used to soften water. I wonder if adding a slight bit of epsom salt in the CO wash would help?

    About the gel.............Lorraine Massey in CG actually suggests making a spray gel using much more water than gel. I keep thinking it's a ratio of 1:4 of gel to water. I tried the 50:50 ration. I wonder if I need to add more water, or less?

    The honey addition: I added honey in the gel. I started with about 1 1/2 drops, to see what happens. My hair fell, but it's shining like it has not shone in weeks! It felt great, too. I was surprised to see how easily it broke down in the spray gel. Tomorrow I might experiment by adding a bit more.

    Thanks again, HalfWavy, and all of you who have responded. My absolutely hair-clueless self is so very grateful to you!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • KurlyPinkKurlyPink Registered Users Posts: 38
    Wow! This is so informative! thank you!!!!

    I'm having a problem with my CO wash - similar to what you have described.
    Normally, when doing a CO-wash our hair should not feel squeaky (that is actually BAD), nor oily, gunky or waxy either. It should feel very clean, fresh and soft.

    You owe the waxy feeling to the combo of your CO and water. I figured it is very possible that when they mix with the minerals in water they create a waxy residue that just sits on the hair.

    I had been using it for a while with no problems and then I tried the Jessicurls system which didn't agree with my hair at all. Since then, my hair hasn't liked the old CO. Lemon juice seems to really clean my hair well - but my hair does squeak when I run my fingers through it - even when it's dirty. It's taken a month to get my hair back to where it was before I tried Jessicurls.

    I have changed my CO to one that has citric acid in it and it is going much better. But I'm still somewhat feeling the waxy residue. I live in an area with very hard water as well.
    2c/mostly 3a/some 3b, strawberry blonde, long
    Aussi moist conditioner, John Freida Frizz-ease curl gel, Boots curl creme, solid coconut oil, aloe vera gel, Jessicurls aloeba conditioner, lavender oil spritz
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Katerina wrote:
    I probably did see that you'd read the book but my memory "ain't" so good, I also read a lot of threads which makes it even harder for me to remember all personal details. :?

    Lorraine Massey stated a goal in the book of just doing a CO-wash every week to 10 days but in a chat or maybe an interview she mentioned she'd gone as long as 3 weeks without a wash so I would think she'd expect a lot of curlies to be like her... Since at the end of the first 3 weeks ideally we should be doing only one weekly wash and only water rinsing and conditioning the rest of the time, I think "technically" you are a bit behind schedule as normally it's best to switch to CO-washing every other time you wet your hair.

    I'd never heard of anyone else diluting the FOTEAVG before so, no, I don't think you're using too much gel at all. Now that I noticed that, I'm wondering if part of the reason why your curls didn't last had to do with that too!

    I'm sending you a PM in a little bit with the link I mentioned. I'm sorry I can't really answer your question about how general low water pressure affects the ions, what I read referred to changes of pressure as the water is released. I'm sure you can e-mail the people at that site and ask them.

    Well water is notorious for often being hard and from what I just saw there can be several other minerals involved, not just calcium carbonate but the results of your water test will tell you for sure. I remember my mother lived in a house that had well water and when you put it in a basin and let it sit for a while it would leave a grainy white "powder" at the bottom when you poured off the water, I hated washing my hair over there!

    When I first got on the internet I had no idea what a "search" was so I asked my son the 'puter geek :lol:. He never has a simple answer for anything so he started naming search engines and confused the heck out of me so at first I thought searching was another word for "frustration". But then I noticed that the MSN home page had a Search feature and since I'm naturally curious I began experimenting with it. I'd just enter words in the order I figured a question would be answered (or expressed in an article) and began having great success. I got so good at it my son has asked me to do searches for him, heh, heh, heh!

    Normally, when doing a CO-wash our hair should not feel squeaky (that is actually BAD), nor oily, gunky or waxy either. It should feel very clean, fresh and soft.

    You owe the waxy feeling to the combo of your CO and water. I've seen this happen so many times to CG beginners that now I immediately suspect the person has a hard water problem. I began making this observation when I was puzzled as to why people with similar hair types were either loving Suave or hating it. It occurred to me the only possible variable was the water each person had, a little more observation revealed the "haters" had hard water or even slightly so. Hard water has a higher concentration of minerals so that was the key that I had to link to whatever Suave COs had that did not mix well with them. I quickly remembered something I'd read in a nutrition book: when certain fats mix with calcium they can form a hard "soap". If you look at a bar of soap it really has the consistency of wax, right? COs like Suave, VO5 and White Rain are inexpensive because besides containing a lot of water they very likely rely on the fatty alcohols (that emulsify the mixture and carry the other ingredients) for the bulk of the product. I figured it is very possible that when they mix with the minerals in water they create a waxy residue that just sits on the hair.

    Well, let's extend the thanks to Michelle and Gretchen for having had the great idea of starting this site. It gives us all the opportunity to share our experiences, and because we older curlies had to go through more "suffering" with our hair, we've developed a lot of empathy towards our fellow curlies. I personally feel that the more pretty and well-behaved curls there are out there the faster the world will realize CURLS REALLY RULE!

    :wink:

    Thank you so much for all the info. At this point, after doing the CO wash, I'm having somewhere between an oily feeling and a waxy feel. Not super oily, mind you, but then again, I'm used to a squeaky-clean feel in my hair.

    This morning it seemed to take an awful lot of CO to wash my hair, and even then, it didn't come out feeling "clean". There was still a slight oily feel to it when I was done. It's been like that for as long as I've been using the AVO5 TT CO. I realize now I wasn't using enough CO, but I think I might have used too much this time. Consequently, I didn't use a finishing CO like I do. Normally, I CO wash ( with the TT) and then use a slight amount of the TT to condition.

    The TT has 2 fatty alcohols which I've identified: cetyl alcohol and stearyl alcohol. I've just learned that stearalkonium chloride ( aka steralkonium chloride and stearal konium chloride) is not a fatty acid, but it has a very high dissolution point. It won't dissolve in water until the water reaches 180 degrees F. :shock: THAT might be the culprit as well. In addition, some judge stearalkonium to be toxic.

    So, from what you are saying, maybe the fatty alcohols are acting like the silicones, at least for me? TT has 2 fatty alcohols, and additionally has an ingredient which only dissolves in very, very hot water.

    TT may work well on others, but I know it's not for me. :( Back to the drawing board for me.

    A thought, though. Water softening salts are used to soften water. I wonder if adding a slight bit of epsom salt in the CO wash would help?

    About the gel.............Lorraine Massey in CG actually suggests making a spray gel using much more water than gel. I keep thinking it's a ratio of 1:4 of gel to water. I tried the 50:50 ration. I wonder if I need to add more water, or less?

    The honey addition: I added honey in the gel. I started with about 1 1/2 drops, to see what happens. My hair fell, but it's shining like it has not shone in weeks! It felt great, too. I was surprised to see how easily it broke down in the spray gel. Tomorrow I might experiment by adding a bit more.

    Thanks again, HalfWavy, and all of you who have responded. My absolutely hair-clueless self is so very grateful to you!

    I read over the page in the book where LM described making spray gel. I stand corrected! It was just "gel" that she had stated could be diluted, not AVG. I think that there is a difference, especially if dealing with "pure" aloe vera gel, or even "pure" gel that's aloe vera (i.e. 100% AV vs. 100% gel, the first focusing on ingredient, the 2nd focusing on product).

    My apologies. I guess I thought LM meant AV gel when she wrote that. Today I'll try using honey again, but just plain gel that's not been diluted.
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Stearalkonium chloride is a cationic surfactant (mild cleansing and germicidal properties) which main function is to act as a detangler. I have read before about the "health concern" but one site that rates all ingredients commonly used in cosmetics rates the concern as "low". I'm not a chemist so I can't say for sure if it contributes to the "wax" problem or not.

    I just did another search and found an experiment where the water is made hard by ADDING e.s. so forget about it! Perhaps you could try what is used in water softening systems: regular table salt (sodium chloride), according to what I read it doesn't react with detergents and soap (to form soap scum like ca & mg) but I don't know if mixing it with your CO would really help. An alternative could be for you to go to a Wal-mart and get a box of "20 Mule Team" borax for laundry and dissolve a teaspoon of it in a large pitcher of water to use for your final rinse.

    KurlyPink:

    Try using a little less lemon juice, for me 1/2 is enough. Last time I did a "Lemon-aid" I used bottled lemon juice so I had to guess the amount and I think I used too much because it left my hair feeling dry. You may have to clarify regularly in order to take care of the waxy build up, either that or wash with a diluted shampoo every now and then. You may want to use a tiny bit of a good oil (such as jojoba) so your hair doesn't dry out, especially during the winter.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)

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