Conditioner kills my waves. Help!

staciastacia Registered Users Posts: 9
Hi all! I've been lurking for a little bit and decided to finally post, maybe some of you lovely wavies can give me some advise. Up until recently I've thought my hair was mostly straight with a few waves and spirals near my ears. I've been co-washing for about 2 weeks, and used a sulfate free shampoo for my roots the other day. What I've been noticing is that if I do a water only rinse, my hair dries with about 3x the wave. I've been using Suave tropical coconut and almond and Shea butter. I tried the V05 key lime clarifying conditioner which left my hair dry and mane n tail original. The only thing that really brings out the wave (which is tight and even starts at the roots when I do this) is just plain cold water which makes me think I'm rinsing out too-heavy conditioner. Am I over conditioning or should I switch to a lighter conditioner? My hair is thick and course with some damage from color and heat styling which I no longer subject my hair to. I'm not 100% on the type yet, this is all pretty new to me. I can't plop as my hair is just above shoulder length and gets wonky. I've tried Fructis root boost because it's a light spray gel but i believe it has cones, so I switched to Suave aloe vera frizz free gel. I'm thinking i should co-wash less (i've been doing every other day at least) and do water only rinses for the non-washing days. I've always been aware of some wave but there's way more than I thought and I'm at a loss as to how to even manage it.

Comments

  • kimmidawnkimmidawn Registered Users Posts: 900
    What have you been using for your rinse out conditioner? It might be something with too many oils, especially if your hair is fine, and that might be why you don't have as much wave. Hopefully someone else can chime in with more advice.
    2b, fine texture, normal porosity & elasticity (CG as of 12/2011)

    Low-poo: UFD Rich & Funky
    Cowash: VO5 Kiwi Lime
    RO: Tresemme Naturals, Aubrey Organics GPB, Ion Effective Care, MillCreek Keratin
    PT/DT: IAgirl's PT, GVP CB
    LI: KCKT, Cure Care, CJ CCCC Lite
    Styling: Curl Keeper, As I Am Jelly, UFD Curly Magic, CJ Curl Queen, TIGI Strong Hold Mousse


    http://public.fotki.com/kdawn12/

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ^^ day 1 of going CG; avatar = 6 months later
  • jakrussel3jakrussel3 Registered Users Posts: 423
    Sounds to me like your conditioner is too heavy too. I'm still experimenting with product, but I'm thinking about switching up to lighter products soon too. you may benefit from a hair analysis. It'll tell you what properties your hair has so you can make better product choices. You can get one from the Live Curly Live Free website for about $20 and it'll include product recommendations. I'm supposed to use lighter conditioners with fewer emollients and less protein. Suave Naturals Conditioner (Waterfall Mist or Wild Cherry Blosson) was on the list I got.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Hair Properties: 2A/2B, Medium-fine, Normal porosity, Normal elasticity, Medium density
    Low Poo: DevaCare, Yes to Cuc's
    Rinse Out: DevaCare One Condition, Yes to Cuc's
    Cowash: Suave Naturals Lavender, Yes to Carrots Scalp Conditioner
    Curl Cream: AG ReCoil, Organix Moroccan Oil Curl Cream
    Gel/Mousse: Sweet Curls Elixirs FSG w/ Mag Sulfate added, Sweet Curls Elixirs hard hold gel, DevaCurl Frizz Free Foam, Aquage Uplifting Foam
    Protein: Spiral Solutions Protein Spray for daily use
  • bluebonnetbluebonnet Registered Users Posts: 82
    I co wash only twice a week with one of the two conditioners in my signature. I don't usually use a leave in either. Too much conditioner doesn't do well for me either. I also have a lot of course, wiry/kinky hair, mixed with regular hair strands. I'm pretty new at co washing since i just started about 8 weeks ago, but that has been my experience so far :)
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    CG 4/13/2012
    med-coarse texture/med density/low porosity
    (2c/3a)
    Clarifying: TJ TTT shampoo
    Cowash: VO5 clarifying kiwi lime, Suave daily clarifying
    RO: SN or Tresemme naturals, TJ TTT
    LI: SN or VO5
    Styling: Gels - HESMU, AAV; John Frieda & HETT mousse; TIGI Curl Booster, FX Curl Booster * Fan of plopping & diffusing
  • kimmidawnkimmidawn Registered Users Posts: 900
    Oh now I understand; I'm on the CurlTalk app. Would you mind posting your siggy so I can see if I have any more insight?
    2b, fine texture, normal porosity & elasticity (CG as of 12/2011)

    Low-poo: UFD Rich & Funky
    Cowash: VO5 Kiwi Lime
    RO: Tresemme Naturals, Aubrey Organics GPB, Ion Effective Care, MillCreek Keratin
    PT/DT: IAgirl's PT, GVP CB
    LI: KCKT, Cure Care, CJ CCCC Lite
    Styling: Curl Keeper, As I Am Jelly, UFD Curly Magic, CJ Curl Queen, TIGI Strong Hold Mousse


    http://public.fotki.com/kdawn12/

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ^^ day 1 of going CG; avatar = 6 months later
  • kimmidawnkimmidawn Registered Users Posts: 900
    Because on the app, I can't see signatures
    2b, fine texture, normal porosity & elasticity (CG as of 12/2011)

    Low-poo: UFD Rich & Funky
    Cowash: VO5 Kiwi Lime
    RO: Tresemme Naturals, Aubrey Organics GPB, Ion Effective Care, MillCreek Keratin
    PT/DT: IAgirl's PT, GVP CB
    LI: KCKT, Cure Care, CJ CCCC Lite
    Styling: Curl Keeper, As I Am Jelly, UFD Curly Magic, CJ Curl Queen, TIGI Strong Hold Mousse


    http://public.fotki.com/kdawn12/

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    ^^ day 1 of going CG; avatar = 6 months later
  • cocoastellacocoastella Registered Users Posts: 44
    Press 'Menu' then 'Browser'

    Sent from my phone using CurlTalk App
  • Jas76Jas76 Registered Users Posts: 2,283 Curl Neophyte
    Just a thought, here - have you tried PT's? That may do the trick for you!

    You could also try the water rinses, and add a little acv to it every now and then. Then instead of a rinse out you could use a lighter LI.

    Of course if you start using more protein you may find your usually conditioner works just fine!
    2c/3a/3b, Fine/med, Dense, high porous, & normal elas.

    Lo-poo - Renpure Keratin, SMR, Giovanni SaS
    clarifying - mix Johnson's H2T with low poo
    Co-wash - Suave Nats. clar. or coco.
    RO - GVPCB, Ion Eff. Care, TN.
    LI - SMR, Cure Care, or RO
    Seal - MO or Jojoba
    DT - + honey, ACV, & EVOO to SM masque & GVPCB
    PT - Gelatin!, CNPF
    Styling - FSG, AIF, BRHG, LALS/PS, GF curl spray gel, SM Souffle/Smoothie, LOOB
    Oils - MO!, EVOO, jojoba, GSO, SM Elixer, EVCO, VO5 Hairdressing
  • plunkybugplunkybug Registered Users Posts: 2,526
    If your hair is coarse, then you may have to be easy with the protein. But I'd definitely say to cut back on co-washing, and that you might be over-conditioned. That said, there is a transition period for co-washing while your scalp adjusts. Most wavies can't strictly co-wash, but there are a few exceptions to the rule. It might just be the wrong conditioner. You might look into a cleansing conditioner that has a bit more cleansing power than just co-washing.

    HTH


    Lady Caiside, Noble Lushetarian and Wavy Wayfarer of Mugglswick, in the Order of the Curly Crusaders

    2b-3a Fii, porous and low elasticity

    Currently using a variety of products, and looking for that magic combo

    Hair bio: http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/showpost.php?p=1252125&postcount=59

  • lucyprimroselucyprimrose Registered Users Posts: 166
    I wasn't quite sure whether you mean that you get best results if you co wash but then don't use another conditioner after, or whether you meant best results if you just water wash.

    I've noticed that if you rinse your co wash out thoroughly, sometimes even if you've used other products after it, you can still smell the fragrance of the co wash product hours later. I'll bet a little bit of conditioning benefit is left behind after rinsing, even if we intend to totally rinse. So if you just co wash and don't use a rinse out, you have still conditioned a fair bit. The advantage of conditioning again after co wash is meant to be firstly, your hair will be cleaner of other products or residue and allow the second conditioner to get to work without them blocking it, and secondly you might be wanting to use a conditioner with different ingredients, eg. more oils or moisture, to treat the lengths than you did for the scalp. But if you don't feel you need more conditioning, you could skip the rinse out conditioner altogether or just skim a bit of your co wash, lighter conditioner over the lengths at the end of co washing and then rinse out.

    If you water wash only, I think you'll feel more of the products you've used in recent days or washes left in, but that could work well, offering a bit of moisture but not weighing down too much. See how it goes and if you have water washed only but want to add a bit of product to style, you'll probably need less as some will be there residually. Personally I don't think water washing all the time is good if you use any product ( I know you weren't suggesting that).

    Something I am going to try is herbal rinses. You can steep dried herbs (eg. from anita grant) just like making tea, and use them as a final rinse when cool. That could be a good substitute for some of your rinse outs, but I don't have much info on it yet. If you try it, check out the herb won't alter colour or anything.
    UK based wavy :hello2:

    Mostly waves, but curls and straight bits too!
    Fine to medium, high porosity, medium density, very low elasticity
    Highlights damage (growing it out), seems to like protein and need lots of moisture.

    Cleanse - CJDF, trying out low poos ; Co wash- Uk chemist brands, Urtekram Rose or Aloe, Hairveda Amala Cream Rinse; RO - varies, Tigi Moisture Maniac, Desert Essence Coconut ; Leave in - Keracare natural textures; Sealant - argan oil
    Trying out new things, still looking.
  • staciastacia Registered Users Posts: 9
    Thanks so much for all the responses! I usually just cowash, rinse, and that's it. My hair doesn't like protein much. I had some luck with the Miracle 7 protein line before I started cowashing but it built up really fast. The leave-ins I (occasionally) use are generally light - Infusium 23 and BTZ Last Call. I need to go thru my collection and figure out what has good ingredients. I used to work at Sally and got a lot of free/cheap stuff and did a lot of damage with color processes then tried to fix it, so I'm overwhelmed with products. The only oil I use (again, only as needed) is buriti and sometimes macadamia. I'm going to try cutting back on cowashing and washing with a sulphate free shampoo once a week, and see how that goes.
  • Corrina777Corrina777 Registered Users Posts: 3,204 Curl Connoisseur
    stacia wrote: »
    Thanks so much for all the responses! I usually just cowash, rinse, and that's it. My hair doesn't like protein much. I had some luck with the Miracle 7 protein line before I started cowashing but it built up really fast. The leave-ins I (occasionally) use are generally light - Infusium 23 and BTZ Last Call. I need to go thru my collection and figure out what has good ingredients. I used to work at Sally and got a lot of free/cheap stuff and did a lot of damage with color processes then tried to fix it, so I'm overwhelmed with products. The only oil I use (again, only as needed) is buriti and sometimes macadamia. I'm going to try cutting back on cowashing and washing with a sulphate free shampoo once a week, and see how that goes.


    Miracle 7 and Infusium 23 have cones, so they would definitely build-up if you're only co-washing, I wouldn't take that as a sign that your hair doesn't like protein. I don't know the ingredients for the BTZ product, so I can't say one way or another.

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    3a/f/iii
    Modified CG since 11/5/11
    CLEANSE: CJ Daily Fix, DevaCare No-Poo, CHS Treatment Shampoo
    RO: SS Caitlin's Conditioner, CJ Beauticurls Strengthening
    LI: SS Repairing Protein Treatment, CHS Silk Leave-In
    STYLE: Re:Coil, Curl Keeper, Deva Ultra Defining Gel, Curls Rock Amplifier,Sweet Curls Elixirs Okra Gel and Hard Hold Gel, SS Curl Enhancing Jelly and Firm Hold Gel
  • staciastacia Registered Users Posts: 9
    I don't use the Miracle 7 anymore. I wouldn't have in the first place but got the whole line as a free sample. I've done Aphogee 2-Step protein treatments and I have the GVP of K-Pak Reconstructer. I just find that anything with protein dries my hair out even with a follow-up deep conditioning. Maybe it's the other ingredients? I'm really new to this though, seems like everything I thought I knew is wrong! The BTZ leave in has amodimethicone, but no other cones.

    Here's my results after using sulphate free shampoo (Finesse Clean + Simple) and GVP Conditioning Balm, plopping in my Turbie Twist knock-off for the first time (have not had success with a t-shirt) and scrunching with Suave gel. (Hope this pic works!)


    20931b39-049e-403d.jpg
  • IAgirlIAgirl Registered Users Posts: 2,540 Curl Neophyte
    I wonder whether your hair is really coarse. Around here - "coarse" means the individual hairs are very thick in diameter. And that suggests a whole bunch of things that don't really go along with hair that is getting overconditioned with cowashing. Perhaps your hair is "medium" and the coarseness you feel is either dry, rough feeling?

    I water wash whenever I don't shampoo and I rarely cowash. Water-washing is great, you can always condition a bit after that if you need it. Another good solution to help your dryness without too much weight is to do a condition-shampoo-condition or apply oil like coconut or olive, then shampoo, then condition.

    Your hair will set "the rules" for you. If it's response implies, "Not too much conditioner, please, and I prefer to be just water-washed some days" then go with it.
    ETA: Posted as you did - lovely hair. Definitely looks in the medium to maybe even medium-mixed-with-fine category.
  • staciastacia Registered Users Posts: 9
    I know it's thick in density. If I run a strand through two fingers, I can definitely feel it. Maybe it's a medium/coarse mix...dunno!
  • lcl0706lcl0706 Registered Users Posts: 959
    I have fine-ish hair and I can feel my strands too when I run one between two fingers. Baby fine hair is hard to feel - ask touch.of.ink :lol: Just judging from your picture - lovely hair btw - I agree with IAgirl, it doesn't look like it would be coarse. Coarse hair feels wiry. I thought my hair was coarse when I first started CG - it was just very dry and rough feeling. It can be easily mixed up. I'm not saying you're totally wrong, just offering that up. If you pull it up into a scrunchie or bobby pin it, does it get dents easily? That's a trademark of fine hair. I can't have my hair in a ponytail for 5 minutes before it has that ponytail dent. If I pull it up, I have to commit to that for all day. I can't pineapple for the same reason. Can't wrap it or sleep in a satin cap overnight either... my hair takes on the shape of the cap.

    Coarse hair isn't easily OC'd, which is what it sounds like yours is. How hard is it to curling iron? (when you used to) - Will it hold a style?
    :wave: fine, thin, normal/(low?) porosity. Mod-CG. Usually I can't co-wash more than 1x a week, & sometimes I have to use T-Gel in rotation due to scalp issues.

    Co-wash: VO5 Volumizing
    Poo: Giovanni 50:50
    RO:TN, Nexxus Youth Renewal, Alba Coconut
    LI: KCKT
    PT: gelatin PT, ION EC
    Stylers: Giovanni mousse, TIGI Curls Rock amplifier (a-cone), Curls Rock Strong Hold Mousse
    Gels: SCC spray gel

    hairsiggy-4-1.jpg
  • Touch.of.inkTouch.of.ink Registered Users Posts: 297
    lcl0706 wrote: »
    I have fine-ish hair and I can feel my strands too when I run one between two fingers. Baby fine hair is hard to feel - ask touch.of.ink :lol:

    Yup :) Remember the story of the Emperor's New Clothes? Well, they were weaving a cloth, but it was out of my hair, that's why it looked invisible :tongue5:
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Hair: Very fine, normal porous (Finally! Yay!), normal elasticity, loves high dew points.
    Daily: Nature's Gate Tea Tree shampoo, GVP CB, Cure Care conditioner, aloe vera gel, Jessicurls products, Spiral Solutions products.
    Monthly: Henna
    As needed: John Masters Organics Sea Mist
    HG Product: BioSilk Rock Hard Gelee (aka BRHG. It even has HG in the name!)
    Last perm: 12/10/10
    CG since: 3/9/12
    Last haircut: 4/17/12
    Gossamer Fringe (my blog)
  • staciastacia Registered Users Posts: 9
    If I stick my hair behind my ear, it holds on to that wave for dear life and if I even lay on it weird for a bit it's almost impossible to get out the weirdness without wetting it. The wave my hair has if I'm lazy about it and don't try to encourage it with scrunching almost looks like I had it in a ponytail and took it down. I just flat-ironed last night for the first time in ages and an hour later it waved up again slightly and by the morning the waves in the back returned in some places and my curly side pieces came back. When I was using SLS shampoos, it held the style so much better! Then again, I was also using higher heat and was way drier. I feel like I need a hair coach! Anyway, I believe I have (and others have) maybe confused surface frizz for coarseness. Thanks for all your help! I've switched to Renpure moisturizing shampoo and volume conditioner. Does it usually take some time with this method to see the hair texture "emerge?"
  • lcl0706lcl0706 Registered Users Posts: 959
    It definitely sounds finer textured. Sounds like you could use some protein! I love ION Effective Care as a good protein RO, but some people find it works good as a PT. Protein helps repair the damage caused from flatironing and highlighting (if u ever did). And fine hair by nature needs protein for strength, as it manufactures little on its own.

    Sent from my PG06100 using CurlTalk App
    :wave: fine, thin, normal/(low?) porosity. Mod-CG. Usually I can't co-wash more than 1x a week, & sometimes I have to use T-Gel in rotation due to scalp issues.

    Co-wash: VO5 Volumizing
    Poo: Giovanni 50:50
    RO:TN, Nexxus Youth Renewal, Alba Coconut
    LI: KCKT
    PT: gelatin PT, ION EC
    Stylers: Giovanni mousse, TIGI Curls Rock amplifier (a-cone), Curls Rock Strong Hold Mousse
    Gels: SCC spray gel

    hairsiggy-4-1.jpg
  • staciastacia Registered Users Posts: 9
    I actually have a packet of that and was thinking about using it today, but I've been so confused about the protein/moisture balance. I'll use it next time I wash! Thanks!
  • lcl0706lcl0706 Registered Users Posts: 959
    See what you think about it! Its pretty rich in both protein & moisture so if you think it still kills your waves, maybe a protein treatment like IAGirl's gelatin recipe, then followed by a lighter conditioner, would be more up your alley. Most people find they want to follow a PT with a conditioner & for me, the effective care does both at once.


    Sent from my PG06100 using CurlTalk App
    :wave: fine, thin, normal/(low?) porosity. Mod-CG. Usually I can't co-wash more than 1x a week, & sometimes I have to use T-Gel in rotation due to scalp issues.

    Co-wash: VO5 Volumizing
    Poo: Giovanni 50:50
    RO:TN, Nexxus Youth Renewal, Alba Coconut
    LI: KCKT
    PT: gelatin PT, ION EC
    Stylers: Giovanni mousse, TIGI Curls Rock amplifier (a-cone), Curls Rock Strong Hold Mousse
    Gels: SCC spray gel

    hairsiggy-4-1.jpg
  • staciastacia Registered Users Posts: 9
    Speaking of protein, I did the wet strand test and my hair stretched and then snapped. :( Oh my. I like the Effective Care treatment, but I'm going to try K-Pak Reconstructor followed with a deep conditioner and see how it goes. I might even try an egg treatment, depending how this goes.
  • lcl0706lcl0706 Registered Users Posts: 959
    Listen to your hair after a K-pak, if it doesn't feel strawlike you might not have to follow it with a DT. I just use a light RO after my PT - I use IAGirl's gelatin PT which is cheap and easily customizeable http://www.naturallycurly.com/curltalk/2/116257-pt-recipe-promised.html

    Speaking of which, I'm way overdue for one :lol:
    :wave: fine, thin, normal/(low?) porosity. Mod-CG. Usually I can't co-wash more than 1x a week, & sometimes I have to use T-Gel in rotation due to scalp issues.

    Co-wash: VO5 Volumizing
    Poo: Giovanni 50:50
    RO:TN, Nexxus Youth Renewal, Alba Coconut
    LI: KCKT
    PT: gelatin PT, ION EC
    Stylers: Giovanni mousse, TIGI Curls Rock amplifier (a-cone), Curls Rock Strong Hold Mousse
    Gels: SCC spray gel

    hairsiggy-4-1.jpg
  • staciastacia Registered Users Posts: 9
    Just before getting in the shower to do the K-Pak treatment, I investigated my hair where I had some breakage, brittle ends and known damage (bleached a panel for blue) today. White dots! Nooo! I flat ironed again Friday for my graduation the next day - a cap and unpredictable waves don't go together. I did the ion Saturday and cold water rinse yesterday. I'm putting my flat iron in my closet and I guess I'm going to need to S&D those dots. I'm air drying after K-Pak and Pure Elements Intensive Repair. So far, I'm seeing some decent waves.

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