NO-POO, not sure

Haven't wanted to post until I got the CG book, but I haven't yet gotten to the library to check it out.

But since experimenting with co-washes in Dec, I have some doubts this routine will work for me. :( It seems with conditioner only, my hair gets very weighed-down, dull, coated with film and the shape of my curls don't seem to get any better than with the poo/cond method. One night I got caught in the rain and my hair looked and felt horrible, gunky and frizzy...just icky feeling. After that all I wanted to do was wash this gunk out. Without doing it by the book, I'm afraid I had to return to my old ways. I did learn in this process to go light on the poo and I use only a watered-down dime size when I wash, then condition real well.

Can you ever lose this gunky, filmy feeling on the poo-less routine? Is it a matter of hunting for that right product? I refrained from using a gel or finishing cream but still my hair felt heavy with film. I'm not sure I could get used to this.
2a/2b canopy 3a/3b underneath
Modified CG, co wash diluted VO5, LOVE Elucence MBC & MBS! Activate's nice too.
Still looking for a styling product...suggestions welcome!
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Comments

  • DelmaDelma Registered Users Posts: 1,121
    What kind of co are you using to co-wash?

    And also have you tried diluting the co ,cause that's the only way I can co-wash

  • teela1978teela1978 Registered Users Posts: 278
    The conditioner definitely can make a difference, and within a line of conditioners there can be a lot of variation requiring a lot of trial and error to find the right "flavor". Common cheapo favorites are white rain extra body, suave coconut, suave aloe vera (my fave), vo5 sun kissed rasberry, and v05 kiwi-lime squeeze (availiability varies a lot depending on your location). I'm with delma on the dilution factor as well. I usually dilute suave and white rain 50/50 with water before using, it seems to somehow help it clean better in my opinion :)
    Fine Wavy (2a)
    Weeklyish shampoo with CO's inbetween to keep down the grease.
  • BlissBliss Registered Users Posts: 125
    Im still in the trial phase of CG....I do find that I need to co-wash daily and wash my scalp with some low-poo at least once a week (other wise my hair feels greasy and my scalp is itchy).....

    I don't think shampooing is the biggest issue for me (as in, I think my hair turns out the same with co-washing OR with shampooing and conditioning), instead I think that the biggest change for me is to stop using products with 'cones in them. I think the 'cones have the worst effect on my hair (making my curls droop). I may end up shampooing my scalp and conditioning daily if thats what make my hair its best...
    ___________
    fine hair with botticelli curls according to my stylist :)
    currently trialing devacurl low poo, one c and angell
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    teela1978 wrote:
    The conditioner definitely can make a difference, and within a line of conditioners there can be a lot of variation requiring a lot of trial and error to find the right "flavor". Common cheapo favorites are white rain extra body, suave coconut, suave aloe vera (my fave), vo5 sun kissed rasberry, and v05 kiwi-lime squeeze (availiability varies a lot depending on your location). I'm with delma on the dilution factor as well. I usually dilute suave and white rain 50/50 with water before using, it seems to somehow help it clean better in my opinion :)

    You have mention of hard water in your signature.....I wonder if that isn't part of the problem as well. I live in OKC and unless I'm mistaken, we have hard water here. I know we have water spot and etching problems with the dishwasher, something I never encountered in GA where I used to live til July of 2006.

    Like straw, I have found that since starting the CG routine, my hair is waxy feeling and feels greasy. It's dull and has no sheen like it did when I was shampooing. I've done 2 Lemon Aids since starting CG. The latest Lemon Aid was about 2 days ago. The day after the Lemon Aid application, there was absolutely no difference in my hair when I took a shower.......and I didn't apply any product in my hair after the Lemon Aid application! I expected to see my hair cleansed and "clarified" but I saw nothing different. Maybe I had too much conditioner or had to dilute it?

    I've seen some women use the term modified CG. What does this mean? I know that CG is the shampoo-free routine, but how does one modify it? I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't for me.

    I forget which reader mentioned the use of products with silicone, but maybe this too is part of my problem during the trial phase of the CG routine. I use a Pantene product that is supposed to help promote my hair's curl, called the Curl Serum ( I think).

    About to try a baking soda clarifier next and see if THAT doesn't help. I really want to give the CG routine a good go before I do shampoo again. If not, will probably go to 1x-2x shampoo per week with daily rinsing.
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • DelmaDelma Registered Users Posts: 1,121
    Maybe you should look into getting a shower filter you can find some at target and such for like 20 something.

  • wild_sasparillawild_sasparilla Registered Users Posts: 4,306
    Katerina wrote:
    teela1978 wrote:
    The conditioner definitely can make a difference, and within a line of conditioners there can be a lot of variation requiring a lot of trial and error to find the right "flavor". Common cheapo favorites are white rain extra body, suave coconut, suave aloe vera (my fave), vo5 sun kissed rasberry, and v05 kiwi-lime squeeze (availiability varies a lot depending on your location). I'm with delma on the dilution factor as well. I usually dilute suave and white rain 50/50 with water before using, it seems to somehow help it clean better in my opinion :)

    You have mention of hard water in your signature.....I wonder if that isn't part of the problem as well. I live in OKC and unless I'm mistaken, we have hard water here. I know we have water spot and etching problems with the dishwasher, something I never encountered in GA where I used to live til July of 2006.

    Like straw, I have found that since starting the CG routine, my hair is waxy feeling and feels greasy. It's dull and has no sheen like it did when I was shampooing. I've done 2 Lemon Aids since starting CG. The latest Lemon Aid was about 2 days ago. The day after the Lemon Aid application, there was absolutely no difference in my hair when I took a shower.......and I didn't apply any product in my hair after the Lemon Aid application! I expected to see my hair cleansed and "clarified" but I saw nothing different. Maybe I had too much conditioner or had to dilute it?

    I've seen some women use the term modified CG. What does this mean? I know that CG is the shampoo-free routine, but how does one modify it? I'm beginning to wonder if this isn't for me.

    I forget which reader mentioned the use of products with silicone, but maybe this too is part of my problem during the trial phase of the CG routine. I use a Pantene product that is supposed to help promote my hair's curl, called the Curl Serum ( I think).

    About to try a baking soda clarifier next and see if THAT doesn't help. I really want to give the CG routine a good go before I do shampoo again. If not, will probably go to 1x-2x shampoo per week with daily rinsing.

    :shock: You've been using that on a no-shampoo routine??!! I'm not even near CG but I know that will give terrible results.
    OMG, LOOK!!

    ...It's a siggie. :shock:
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Straw:

    The CO, gel and water combination definitely has a LOT to do with success on this routine or not. Lately it has become very apparent to me that people with hard water cannot use Suave and other similar COs successfully, some need to use shampoo at least a few times a month no matter what they use if the water is too hard. You don't mention any of that so please elaborate so we can have a better idea of what to recommend.

    Katerina:

    Yours is another clear example of why I ALWAYS stress how important it is to read the CG book before starting. Wild_sasparilla is right, you can't use a CO loaded with 'cones like Pantene to wash with on CG, that will certainly NOT come off with Lemon-Aid, especially if you use the same CO in it. And it really doesn't do anything for the curls, when I was having problems with frizz last year I got "possessed" by madness and bought a bottle of that stuff and after a couple of separate uses as a finishing CO the only thing I found it did was detangle well and nothing else, it's just sitting in a closet now.

    So, at this point I think your only choice is to use a plain or clarifying shampoo to get that off your hair and then start over with at least one of the VO5 COs if you can't afford anything better, but if you can go to a health food store and get Nature's Gate Rainwater CO.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • strawbegonestrawbegone Registered Users Posts: 36
    Real quick here...first I started with some stuff I had around [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/Elucence-Moisture-Balancing-Conditioner-p-39.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=elucence-elucence-moisture-balancing-conditioner]Elucence MBC[/buylink] and Rusk Calm CO and then later got some VO5, the Clarifying Kiwi and Lime, that seemed to leave my hair too frizzy, sorta a halo effect. Then I bought some VO5 Moisture Milks Honeydew smoothie. I used that pretty much exclusively as a co-wash for about 2 or 3 wks. NO I didn't dilute and it got pretty dull, heavy and filmed-up. Stopped using the Garnier sleek and shine conditioning cream after that, but still noticed the coated feeling. YES, I likely do have hard water here. Oh yeah, somewhere in between I did a vinegar/water rinse as well.

    I don't entirely want to give up on this either, and I'm going without the book...I'm working on getting my hands on it, just got alot to do this month. HWHC...you say Nature's Gate would be a good way to go?

    OK, I gotta run out to renew my driver's license...but thanks for the input so far, your tips might make a difference! :D
    2a/2b canopy 3a/3b underneath
    Modified CG, co wash diluted VO5, LOVE Elucence MBC & MBS! Activate's nice too.
    Still looking for a styling product...suggestions welcome!
  • rymorg2rymorg2 Registered Users Posts: 2,571
    I have hard water and am very very modified cg. If my hair feels gunky I'll use a clarifying shampoo. But that's not often, maybe once a month. Most of the time I Co with VO5 sun kissed rasperry or kiwi lime squeeze. I don't use any cones unless they are water soluable. The only reason I'll use a clarifying shampoo is if the skr seems to be building up (which it does occasionally on me) but the kwls has been taking care of that as well; it's just as clarifying on me for some reason as a shampoo. I have found with my hard water that I can't use suave condishes, I had the citrus smoothie and it was yukky! :)
    Cosmetology Educator with sensitivities, eczema and Seborrheic Dermatitis.
    Low poo: looking
    COWash: Eden, cheapo condish, CJDF
    RO: varies
    Protein: CJCF or CJRM
    DT: CJHBDF, CJCR, DBPC
    LI: varies, usually KCKT
    Stylers: KCCC, CRNCM, UFDCM, Curls gel, ecostyler

    Lady Karaan, High Priestess of Hayr Tretements in the Order of Curly Crusaders
    Fotki updated 10/12/10 Password: wavy
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Ah yes, I now remember you started with the Elucence. The VO5 K&L should only be used to wash with no more than once a week, as it indeed can be drying, but if followed by a richer CO it should be no problem because that's what I've been using to wash with since I ran out of my now discontinued HG and my fine, slightly dry colored hair is doing fine.

    It's not a good idea to switch COs so fast while starting CG. The critical period is the first 3 weeks and it's better to stick to the same CO and gel so as to give the hair/scalp time to adjust. Of course, I understand that if your hair was not looking good you may not have felt like being patient. I see you did stick for a good while with the VO5 MM Honeydew but I'm sure it has less nourishing ingredients than your first other two COs.

    Which brings me to ask if you have done any DTs during this time. Since your hair was sort of in bad condition I would think you need the "heavy artillery": a protein pack and one with oils and moisturizers.

    Since you've already tried a few things, I really don't want you to run and get the NG just yet because maybe with a little tweaking of your routine we can make what you have now work for you. It would be good if you could get jojoba or coconut oil, and maybe Fruit of the Earth 100% Aloe Vera gel and honey (if you don't already have some) so you can stay off commercial gels for a while. If you are the adventurous type, maybe you'd like trying your hand at making a batch of flax seed gel (I can help you with that). I think it's very important that you treat your hair very gently, I gave my own hair such a rest recently and it bounced back so quickly I wondered why I had not thought of that sooner!

    If you like, there's an inexpensive product that can double as a moisturizing cream/leave-in and DT and it's usually found in the ethnic section of drugstores and other stores, click here to see: Hollywood Beauty Olive Oil Creme Hairdress.

    I really would like to get more in depth with you about how you're doing the routine so far since you haven't read the book yet, so let's keep communicating (PM if you need to) because it's not a really "fair try" until you've exhausted all the resources of this routine, and going back to 'cones and, therefore, frequent shampooing is really not going to help you right now so "hang in there"!
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Straw:

    The CO, gel and water combination definitely has a LOT to do with success on this routine or not. Lately it has become very apparent to me that people with hard water cannot use Suave and other similar COs successfully, some need to use shampoo at least a few times a month no matter what they use if the water is too hard. You don't mention any of that so please elaborate so we can have a better idea of what to recommend.

    Katerina:

    Yours is another clear example of why I ALWAYS stress how important it is to read the CG book before starting. Wild_sasparilla is right, you can't use a CO loaded with 'cones like Pantene to wash with on CG, that will certainly NOT come off with Lemon-Aid, especially if you use the same CO in it. And it really doesn't do anything for the curls, when I was having problems with frizz last year I got "possessed" by madness and bought a bottle of that stuff and after a couple of separate uses as a finishing CO the only thing I found it did was detangle well and nothing else, it's just sitting in a closet now.

    So, at this point I think your only choice is to use a plain or clarifying shampoo to get that off your hair and then start over with at least one of the VO5 COs if you can't afford anything better, but if you can go to a health food store and get Nature's Gate Rainwater CO.

    Let me clear up some misconception here!

    I'm a newbie to nc.com. I joined it 2-3 days ago. I first found the site about 2 weeks ago when I used it to find a stylist in my area. She was great and I plan to return to her again. She told about CG while I was there, and after I finished my appointment with her I trotted to the nearest bookstore and bought the book. I started reading it that day. I finished it a day or two later and have read it again in parts ever since. In the days after I finished the book, I reread certain parts and then began to purge my cabinets of products with ASL and sodium lauryl sulfate, and purge styling products that have alcohol and/or silicones. I'm still in the process, however, but purged several products right off the top.

    I'm not sure how it happened, but the hair serum was misunderstood to be my conditoner, for some reason! I do NOT use the hair serum as a conditioner!! I use a conditioner for the conditioner, and I use the hair serum as an occasional styling product.

    These are my products: current shampoo and conditioner are L'oreal Pro-V for curly/wavy hair, and just finished Herbal Essences Totally Twisted Shampoo and conditioner. Styling products include the aforementioned Pantene Hair Serum for curly hair, Totally Twisted gel, which I just finished, Fructis spray gel, TreSemme Curl Care mousse and Dove mousse for curly hair and finally, John Frieda Frizz-Ease Curl Perfecter. I also have a Pantene curl spray but use it sparingly since it makes my curls too crunchy for me. I don't use them all at once, and have been testing them. I liked the Totally Twisted, but found it a tad crunchy. I like the TreSemme mousse and I consistently use the John Frieda, which I've been using for as long as I've known I have curly hair, which is now going on 6 years. I also use the Fructis on a somewhat regular basis. It's possible I could be considered a product junkie, but am trying to work on that!

    As for my curl type, I'm a 2b with some 3a thrown in underneath. On top it even looks to me like a 2a at times.

    After reading about the hard water, I won't be surprised if I find I have to shampoo once a week. I just have to find out what characterizes hard water. I know what I see around here, but I've only been living with the water situation for about 6 months. I moved here to OK from Georgia in July. After reading the post, it occurred to me that the hard water could be a problem for me.

    I'll look for the shampoo you mentioned, HWHC.
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • teela1978teela1978 Registered Users Posts: 278
    It sounds like every single product you've been using is loaded with cones except for your gels :) So that might also be an issue in addition to hard water. My main problem now that I have EXTREME hard water (Salt Lake City kinda sucks that way) is that my CO routine doesen't seem to get rid of all of the grease from my scalp and oily hair ain't cool. Silicone buildup (cyclopentoxosilane is a cone) on the other hand gives me awful straw-like dry ends over time. I'd get some clarifying shampoo and give a cheapo cone-free condish a try if you really want to go with the CG thing.

    Technically CG allows a weekly shampoo for wavies, but I figures since I CO every other day inbetween for my oily scalp that I'm not quite on a CG routine. Good luck!
    Fine Wavy (2a)
    Weeklyish shampoo with CO's inbetween to keep down the grease.
  • wild_sasparillawild_sasparilla Registered Users Posts: 4,306
    Katerina, I didn't think you used serum as conditioner. I just said that on CG there is no way you'll get results styling with something like that. In your post you said you were trying CG, but you just listed your current shampoo and conditioner - 'coney choices, too. I'm confused. You didn't mention anything you could have been washing with on CG under your current or recent products, so...where is the co-wash?

    By the way, how long you've been on NC.com does not matter in terms of the CG routine. I've been here since summer and I'm definitely not CG, though I might try it soon.
    OMG, LOOK!!

    ...It's a siggie. :shock:
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Katerina:

    Oops, I was the one who I guess read in a hurry Wild_sasparilla's comment and somehow assumed it was a CO you were using to wash with, sorry about that! :oops: I don't want you to feel bad but just as an explanation it does get a little confusing when someone starts a thread and somewhere in the middle we get side-tracked but I think I'm back on track, so no worries!

    However, I do believe too that some of the products you mentioned do have 'cones but I was confused because Pantene is the one who has a "Pro-V", not L'Oreal, it has "Vive". Since you are a "newbie" you probably haven't had a chance to learn yet (like we all had to do right here) that not all 'cones end up like that. The worst CG nemesis is cyclopentasiloxane and another one that slips by often undetected is dimethiconol, widely used by Unilever in their Suave and Dove COs. If any of those are in your products they will cause trouble.

    The only two relatively safe 'cones are amodimethicone and dimethicone copolyol because they're water soluble and can be easily removed, at least for people whose water is not very hard. Also any others with the letters PEG in front. For further reference please visit the "sticky" thread about ingredients at the top of the General Discussion board index.

    Hard water is easily recognized because it makes soap scum more easily leaving a dull film over the tiles and fixtures soon after being cleaned, and after a few days even a whitish hard deposit can be found around the faucets.

    If any styler you use is too "crunchy" you don't need to go and get another one. Just use a little less and apply it when your hair is soaking wet, thus the excess will be absorbed by your towel (or an old cotton T-shirt, even paper towels). If you want to see how some of us do it just go to www.jessicurl.com and view the demo videos. Alternatively, you can even dilute each individual portion with a little water in a small bowl before applying it.

    Ah, and lastly, don't even worry about being considered a PJ, most of us here either are or have been at one point or another! ;)
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Katerina:

    Oops, I was the one who I guess read in a hurry Wild_sasparilla's comment and somehow assumed it was a CO you were using to wash with, sorry about that! :oops: I don't want you to feel bad but just as an explanation it does get a little confusing when someone starts a thread and somewhere in the middle we get side-tracked but I think I'm back on track, so no worries!

    However, I do believe too that some of the products you mentioned do have 'cones but I was confused because Pantene is the one who has a "Pro-V", not L'Oreal, it has "Vive". Since you are a "newbie" you probably haven't had a chance to learn yet (like we all had to do right here) that not all 'cones end up like that. The worst CG nemesis is cyclopentasiloxane and another one that slips by often undetected is dimethiconol, widely used by Unilever in their Suave and Dove COs. If any of those are in your products they will cause trouble.

    The only two relatively safe 'cones are amodimethicone and dimethicone copolyol because they're water soluble and can be easily removed, at least for people whose water is not very hard. Also any others with the letters PEG in front. For further reference please visit the "sticky" thread about ingredients at the top of the General Discussion board index.

    Hard water is easily recognized because it makes soap scum more easily leaving a dull film over the tiles and fixtures soon after being cleaned, and after a few days even a whitish hard deposit can be found around the faucets.

    If any styler you use is too "crunchy" you don't need to go and get another one. Just use a little less and apply it when your hair is soaking wet, thus the excess will be absorbed by your towel (or an old cotton T-shirt, even paper towels). If you want to see how some of us do it just go to www.jessicurl.com and view the demo videos. Alternatively, you can even dilute each individual portion with a little water in a small bowl before applying it.

    Ah, and lastly, don't even worry about being considered a PJ, most of us here either are or have been at one point or another! ;)

    Thanks, HWHC. I really did try to give the book as thorough a read as possible, and to start with a plan.

    I'll try your suggestion about the styler. It seems that when I reduce the amount, I don't get any kind of hold or definition at all. Either I have to put in the amount I do and "decrunch" or add silicone-based product, which has been the hair serum.

    I tried the "plopping" technique yesterday. Let's just say that if I go that route, I have a LOT of work to do there. Then again, maybe that's not a fair assessment. My hair is looking nearly straight now, it's so weighed down, so maybe it's not about the technique itself, but that my hair is loaded with stuff and I need to cleanse it! I'll likely return to the plopping technique next week and just keep trying it.

    Thanks again!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Katerina:

    Oops, I was the one who I guess read in a hurry Wild_sasparilla's comment and somehow assumed it was a CO you were using to wash with, sorry about that! :oops: I don't want you to feel bad but just as an explanation it does get a little confusing when someone starts a thread and somewhere in the middle we get side-tracked but I think I'm back on track, so no worries!

    However, I do believe too that some of the products you mentioned do have 'cones but I was confused because Pantene is the one who has a "Pro-V", not L'Oreal, it has "Vive". Since you are a "newbie" you probably haven't had a chance to learn yet (like we all had to do right here) that not all 'cones end up like that. The worst CG nemesis is cyclopentasiloxane and another one that slips by often undetected is dimethiconol, widely used by Unilever in their Suave and Dove COs. If any of those are in your products they will cause trouble.

    The only two relatively safe 'cones are amodimethicone and dimethicone copolyol because they're water soluble and can be easily removed, at least for people whose water is not very hard. Also any others with the letters PEG in front. For further reference please visit the "sticky" thread about ingredients at the top of the General Discussion board index.

    Hard water is easily recognized because it makes soap scum more easily leaving a dull film over the tiles and fixtures soon after being cleaned, and after a few days even a whitish hard deposit can be found around the faucets.

    If any styler you use is too "crunchy" you don't need to go and get another one. Just use a little less and apply it when your hair is soaking wet, thus the excess will be absorbed by your towel (or an old cotton T-shirt, even paper towels). If you want to see how some of us do it just go to www.jessicurl.com and view the demo videos. Alternatively, you can even dilute each individual portion with a little water in a small bowl before applying it.

    Ah, and lastly, don't even worry about being considered a PJ, most of us here either are or have been at one point or another! ;)
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • BlissBliss Registered Users Posts: 125
    I know if I tried to CO-wash...then condition....then use a leave in conditioner...then styling products (like some people here do with success) my hair would be a stringy, droopy mess lol. My hair is fine,its dry but not super dry, and curl pattern is not very strong --and it gets weighed down very easy if I use too many things or overcondition

    Right now Im either CO-washing then using a gel...OR shampooing scalp, conditioning and using a gel to see how things turn out. I'll add and change products depending on the results I get. I *think* I want to try [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/AG-Recoil-p-24.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=ag-hair-cosmetics-recoil-curl-activator]re:coil[/buylink] then a gel on top to see if I can get the curls defined, more volume, less frizz---all at one time lol
    ___________
    fine hair with botticelli curls according to my stylist :)
    currently trialing devacurl low poo, one c and angell
  • lharpel62lharpel62 Registered Users Posts: 7
    I'm pretty new around these parts too, but I think one of the keys I discovered is you need to start with a fresh slate - you need to do a good clarifying wash before you do anything else. Get all that old buildup out of your hair and THEN start using the CG products (if that's the way you want to go).

    I just started the CG routine about 2 months ago. I have 3a/3b curls, fairly fine but lots of hair, about shoulder length. And I live in Arizona and have hard water woes.

    I started out with a good one-time shampooing with Neutragena Shampoo (anti-residue formula) which removed all the old build-up out of my hair. Again, I think that is KEY. Once you get all the gunk out of your hair, and if you only put CG-friendly (water-soluble) products in your hair, you'll be surprised how easily everything just rinses out in the shower!

    Now I just co-wash (currently V05 Kiwi-Lime Squeeze which I get at the dollar store :D), and use conditioner (alternating between DevaCurl OneC, Regis Olive Oil Conditioner and Curl Junkie Hibiscus & Banana Conditioner). I haven't used any sort of shampoo for over 2 months and my hair has never behaved or felt better! I scrub my scalp with the co-wash, and have never felt greasy or itchy.

    For styling products, I bounce between Totally Twisted gel, [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-Angell-p-57.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-angell]DevaCurl Angel[/buylink]l and [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/Curly-Hair-Solutions-Curl-Keeper-p-28.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=curly-hair-solutions-curl-keeper]Curl Keeper[/buylink].

    It just amazes me how much better my hair looks now that I'm only putting products in my hair that will wash out completely with water and co-wash!
    3A, I think
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Katerina:

    Once again I read too fast, lol! You mentioned the Pantene spray is the crunchy one and you can't dilute that, at least not all in the original bottle, so never mind. But since we're talking about stylers, how have you done with the mousses?

    If none of what you have is really working for you and if you have even a slight inclination to mix things at home, the flax seed gel (see Recipe section) is not only natural and even good for your hair but it's really easy to make. At first, I just added Epsom Salt (a natural curl enhancer) to mine and a few drops of Evening Primrose oil but later I decided to mix it with a "glob" (less than 1 Tbsp.) of Fruit of The Earth 100% Aloe Vera gel and a few drops of honey and it was "perfect" for my fine hair, had the same hold as any of my commercial gels and I can have 2nd day hair with this combo (which one of my gels never lets me do). Since the ingredients are totally water soluble and natural there is never any residue to worry about, so give some thought. ;)

    Bliss:

    You can try the above too. I totally get what you mean because I have fine hair too and the less I manipulate it the better. I usually only use a leave-in when I don't want to use a styler; I do apply a 2nd CO after I CO wash, because I use the VO5 K&L (old formula) which people have reported as being a little drying, but I at least rinse it off lightly to avoid the weighing down problem. If you decide to give the flax seed gel a try I would strongly recommend that you buy some jojoba oil (if you don't already have it) so you can add 4-5 drops to the batch because that's an oil that has a good reputation for taming frizz (and I can vouch for that!).

    shoogapie:

    I generally don't feel it's necessary to use a clarifying shampoo before starting CG because in most cases any remaining silicones in the hair really break down fast BUT if the person has really been using them heavily (as in their shampoo, CO & serum or more) AND their water is hard I do agree with you, it's worth it to shampoo that one last time to start as you say with a (squeaky :lol:) clean slate.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Katerina:

    Once again I read too fast, lol! You mentioned the Pantene spray is the crunchy one and you can't dilute that, at least not all in the original bottle, so never mind. But since we're talking about stylers, how have you done with the mousses?

    If none of what you have is really working for you and if you have even a slight inclination to mix things at home, the flax seed gel (see Recipe section) is not only natural and even good for your hair but it's really easy to make. At first, I just added Epsom Salt (a natural curl enhancer) to mine and a few drops of Evening Primrose oil but later I decided to mix it with a "glob" (less than 1 Tbsp.) of Fruit of The Earth 100% Aloe Vera gel and a few drops of honey and it was "perfect" for my fine hair, had the same hold as any of my commercial gels and I can have 2nd day hair with this combo (which one of my gels never lets me do). Since the ingredients are totally water soluble and natural there is never any residue to worry about, so give some thought. ;)

    Bliss:

    You can try the above too. I totally get what you mean because I have fine hair too and the less I manipulate it the better. I usually only use a leave-in when I don't want to use a styler; I do apply a 2nd CO after I CO wash, because I use the VO5 K&L (old formula) which people have reported as being a little drying, but I at least rinse it off lightly to avoid the weighing down problem. If you decide to give the flax seed gel a try I would strongly recommend that you buy some jojoba oil (if you don't already have it) so you can add 4-5 drops to the batch because that's an oil that has a good reputation for taming frizz (and I can vouch for that!).

    shoogapie:

    I generally don't feel it's necessary to use a clarifying shampoo before starting CG because in most cases any remaining silicones in the hair really break down fast BUT if the person has really been using them heavily (as in their shampoo, CO & serum or more) AND their water is hard I do agree with you, it's worth it to shampoo that one last time to start as you say with a (squeaky :lol:) clean slate.

    HWHC, shoogapie and bliss:

    Thanks to you all. I do think I'm going to need to do a clarifying shampoo and start anew. We're socked in here in OKC with an ice storm. Not a great deal of accumulation, but it IS all ice thus far, so that's just too dangerous for travel for me, personally. We live out in the country, too, so...........after the sun comes out and melts the ice I'll be heading either to a drug store to find one of the CG products or go to the nat. foods store for the Nature Gate. Thanks for the specific product name, HWHC.

    I'm basically a wavy hair type with fine hair. My canopy seems to be 2a to me. No matter how good the cut, it never seems to really curl up. The underlayers are 2b with some occasional honest curls thrown in for good measure. On my own, without air dry, my hair will act very much like 2a hair. With product and a good diffuser, I can cultivate the 2b and even 3a waves and curls.

    I seem to do much better with the mousse than with the gel. The gel seems to weigh down my hair. Thanks for the tip about the bowl of water, HWHC. That confirms what I was thinking today.

    I did shampoo yesterday, but I personally can't say it was a clarifying shampoo, as it was the same shampoo from the L'oreal Curl Vive line or whatever it is called. It's L'oreal's curly hair line.

    The epsom salts sound like a good idea, and the flax gel appeals to me also. That confirms another idea I had going! I noticed that in my curly hair shampoo and conditioner, salt ( NaCl2) is one of the top 5 ingredients, in the form of sodium chloride ( hope I had the equation right!)

    So, thanks again y'all, and when the roads become more passable, I'll be heading into OKC to try something that's more CG friendly.
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Katerina:

    I just wanted to add that the more you describe your hair the more it sounds like mine before CG. In fact, I lived all my life convinced I was just a wavy. Even after I stopped chemically straightening, because I lived in the NE where the air was dryer than here, I never suspected I could ever have curls.

    The canopy is usually straighter in hair like ours and the best curls hide under there, I have to apply products upside down because if I do it right side up I kill all the curls and if I just scrunch the top will be flat. I often get very annoyed because even after all the work some hairs at the top remain almost straight and then I have to either roll them around a round pencil or do a "skip" the curl (sort of like the way a jump rope is moved). When my hair was long I could sometimes get true spirals in some places but now that it's shorter I only saw that happen once last month and have not been able to get them again. I only seem to have the kind of curls I like on the perimeter that surrounds my face.:?
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • strawbegonestrawbegone Registered Users Posts: 36
    Went back to a co-wash, happy to report not looking too shabby! :D
    I did use the extra cheap buy Suave Berry Smoothie but I took the advice of adding some water during the shower...couldn't get distilled yet I'm kinda snowed in here. I used the Suave/water combo as my co-wash and rinsed it out real well, followed-up with 5 minute application of [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/Elucence-Moisture-Balancing-Conditioner-p-39.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=elucence-elucence-moisture-balancing-conditioner]Elucence MBC[/buylink], rinsed that out and added a touch more Elucence to leave in, no styling product...and my curl/wave formation looks pretty darn good, with more bounce than frizz too! Now the real test is the the follow-up! Not sure what to do next time to get a nice repeat, but am very pleased today! :D

    BTW Katerina...my hair sounds quite the same as yours also, my canopy is mostly straight with a few waves thrown in, mostly on one side. My underside is very curly almost spirals, if I only had the amount of curl that lies underneath on the top half that shows, I'd have it made!
    2a/2b canopy 3a/3b underneath
    Modified CG, co wash diluted VO5, LOVE Elucence MBC & MBS! Activate's nice too.
    Still looking for a styling product...suggestions welcome!
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Katerina:

    I just wanted to add that the more you describe your hair the more it sounds like mine before CG. In fact, I lived all my life convinced I was just a wavy. Even after I stopped chemically straightening, because I lived in the NE where the air was dryer than here, I never suspected I could ever have curls.

    The canopy is usually straighter in hair like ours and the best curls hide under there, I have to apply products upside down because if I do it right side up I kill all the curls and if I just scrunch the top will be flat. I often get very annoyed because even after all the work some hairs at the top remain almost straight and then I have to either roll them around a round pencil or do a "skip" the curl (sort of like the way a jump rope is moved). When my hair was long I could sometimes get true spirals in some places but now that it's shorter I only saw that happen once last month and have not been able to get them again. I only seem to have the kind of curls I like on the perimeter that surrounds my face.:?

    I didn't have curls or even the waves I have that were truly discernible until after childbirth. To be exact, I first noticed in the summer of 2001, at a teacher's conference in Atlanta, and it was quite by accident. I did spend my life wishing I had curls, but had come to a point where I was simply keeping my hair straight. In childhood, I thought I had stick-straight hair. My hair wouldn't keep a curl long at all when I was young. In my early 30s, now that I think of it, my hair used to get these little curly tendrils at the side of my head when it was super-hot and ultra humid. Maybe that was the beginning, but I didn't have a clue then.

    I have been trying to apply product as described in the CG book, but now that you mention how you describe applying your product, which is how I used to apply mine before altering the routine, I was getting much better results with the product when I applied it with my head upside down. Now it's been looking more like it does when I go natural and don't blow-dry. I usually get the best results when I blow-dry.
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Hormones somehow seem to have an effect on many women's hair, often making it curlier. A similar thing happens when there's a lot of gray, it usually has a different texture than the rest of the hair and it's dryer, that's what I've noticed with mine. :?

    Partially diiffusing also helps my hair curl more, as the hair rests on the "cup" and I push it up it's a way of gently scrunching it and it dries in the contracted shape. I always spritz with a bit of distilled water after dry and scrunching or twisting the stiffness out to make up for any over drying, then I push the hair up with my hand and this "shrinks" any strands that didn't get fully curled.

    Sometimes when I use a light leave-in I can get the same effect when air drying as there is little weight to pull the curls down.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Katerina wrote:
    Katerina:

    Oops, I was the one who I guess read in a hurry Wild_sasparilla's comment and somehow assumed it was a CO you were using to wash with, sorry about that! :oops: I don't want you to feel bad but just as an explanation it does get a little confusing when someone starts a thread and somewhere in the middle we get side-tracked but I think I'm back on track, so no worries!

    However, I do believe too that some of the products you mentioned do have 'cones but I was confused because Pantene is the one who has a "Pro-V", not L'Oreal, it has "Vive". Since you are a "newbie" you probably haven't had a chance to learn yet (like we all had to do right here) that not all 'cones end up like that. The worst CG nemesis is cyclopentasiloxane and another one that slips by often undetected is dimethiconol, widely used by Unilever in their Suave and Dove COs. If any of those are in your products they will cause trouble.

    The only two relatively safe 'cones are amodimethicone and dimethicone copolyol because they're water soluble and can be easily removed, at least for people whose water is not very hard. Also any others with the letters PEG in front. For further reference please visit the "sticky" thread about ingredients at the top of the General Discussion board index.

    Hard water is easily recognized because it makes soap scum more easily leaving a dull film over the tiles and fixtures soon after being cleaned, and after a few days even a whitish hard deposit can be found around the faucets.

    If any styler you use is too "crunchy" you don't need to go and get another one. Just use a little less and apply it when your hair is soaking wet, thus the excess will be absorbed by your towel (or an old cotton T-shirt, even paper towels). If you want to see how some of us do it just go to www.jessicurl.com and view the demo videos. Alternatively, you can even dilute each individual portion with a little water in a small bowl before applying it.

    Ah, and lastly, don't even worry about being considered a PJ, most of us here either are or have been at one point or another! ;)

    I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly about the PEGs. I understand about the other stuff. Thanks. It looks like you are saying that PEGs are also CG friendly?

    Thanks so much!
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    Yes, if a silicone name has PEG first that means it's water soluble and is acceptable in CG.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • KaterinaKaterina Registered Users Posts: 117
    Yes, if a silicone name has PEG first that means it's water soluble and is acceptable in CG.

    Thanks. That really helps a bunch.

    Maybe I can do the CG routine in the midst of this storm after all! If not, doesn't look like we'll have as much snow, so the roads look to clear much earlier than expected previously.

    Thank you so much for all your help.
    fine, wavy hair with lazy waves. Sometimes lanky spiral curls underneath when the weath is very humid. My waves are capricious like me! Presently using Burt's Bees condish, FOTE AVG with honey or Mop Top gel.
  • MigsMigs Registered Users Posts: 29
    Hi all,

    I have another question about no-poo/lo-poo. I am not CG and I still use a silicone based frizz serum because that is the only thing that tames the "canopy". I tried the Deva curl free or whatever that spray is but it did nothing. However, I have switched to Deva no-poo once a week, rather than shampooing regularly. Will that wash out the build-up from the frizz serum? I am new to all this lingo, so one more: what is a clarifying shampoo and what are some good brands for that?

    Thanks for all the advice. I am 3b/3c super thick hair.
    3b/3c. Thick thick thick coarse curls. Current routine: OneC, beleave in, arc angell or sometimes Suave smoothing gel w/aloe.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Registered Users Posts: 907
    The no-poo will not remove the 'cones in the anti-frizz serum. Your canopy needs "taming" because it's dehydrated, if you keep putting 'cones on it you're keeping moisture out, what you need is a couple of good moisturizing DTs and to try jojoba oil, i'ts been said to prevent frizz as well as 'cones but without any buildup. Here's a very informative article: http://www.naturallycurly.com/curlcolumns/articles.php?id=2792

    A clarifying shampoo is basically one containing sulfated surfactants and little else. Any cheap "no-frills" shampoo can be used instead of a clarifying one but Suave has a "Daily Clarifying" one some people here use and Neutrogena has a "no residue" one (which is the one my daughter uses).
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • MigsMigs Registered Users Posts: 29
    Thanks, HalfWavyHalfCurly! I know the 'cone based stuff dries my hair. I first tried the Deva products and hated them so I went back to my old coney routine, but since discovering this site I have heard of plopping and it has made all the difference with my Deva products and makes my curls awesome, so I will try to go to a cone free system now and get all the moisture back in my hair. I am slowly implementing many suggestions I learned here. My JessiCurls sample pack just arrived today and I can't wait to try it. Next up: satin pillowcase.
    3b/3c. Thick thick thick coarse curls. Current routine: OneC, beleave in, arc angell or sometimes Suave smoothing gel w/aloe.

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