CurlTalk

4b define curls

TenderloveandcoilsTenderloveandcoils Posts: 12Registered Users
Hello I am new to the natural hair world I bc'd on Dec. 21, 2010:p. My last relaxer was the end of July 2010.. So right now I have about 2 inches of newgrowth. My question is does it take a few months before my curls start to define? I have used many different products>>>> Miss Jessie's curl pudding and quick curl, Carols Daughters hair milk curl booster, and Uncle funkys daughter curl magic. They all produced the same thing a shiny greasy afro:shock:. Someone please tell me what can i do ????
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Comments

  • papermOonpapermOon Posts: 76Registered Users
    umm..I'm still a noob even though I've been natural for 7months now, but in my honest opinion? It could take awhile (like a couple of weeks)for your natural hair to get used to curl activating products. Once your hair gets longer and heavier, you could start to see a curl pattern.
    If you register at this site you can see in my album how when I first bc'd I had no definition, but two months later it started clumping together when I used Kinky Curly Curling custard. Now that my hair is alil longer, I can just shake it and get the same kind of curl definition + the shrinkage I had when I first bc'd.
    But for my hair to hang more and prevent frizz, I must do twists or braidouts.

    Goodluck
    my hair is like a four leaf clover, full of a 4ish mixture of luck!! or in my case..locks (~.^)
  • dearheart15dearheart15 Posts: 177Registered Users
    I agree...it takes some time before you actually start to see your curl pattern. You also have to keep in mind that most of the products you mentioned only help to "define" whatever pattern you already have or to clump your curls. Hope this helps.
    last perm ~ late May 2009
    BC'd ~ July 1, 2009
    fotki ~ last updated 2/2011
  • forbeeforbee Posts: 441Registered Users
    Hello I am new to the natural hair world I bc'd on Dec. 21, 2010:p. My last relaxer was the end of July 2010.. So right now I have about 2 inches of newgrowth. My question is does it take a few months before my curls start to define? I have used many different products>>>> Miss Jessie's curl pudding and quick curl, Carols Daughters hair milk curl booster, and Uncle funkys daughter curl magic. They all produced the same thing a shiny greasy afro:shock:. Someone please tell me what can i do ????

    It may take awhile, and you might have to use different products. I've heard that Miss Jessie's in particular has a lot of crap in it...no offense.

    I also don't want to be a Debbie Downer or anything, but I'd feel like I wasn't doing you justice if I didn't tell you that there's a chance that your curls may not define. (Wow that was a lot of negatives in one sentence...I hope it made sense lol.) If your hair is truly a 4b, in fact, they won't no matter how long your hair grows. Of course you can do twistouts, braidouts and whatever else there is to have a curly hairstyle but curls that clump by themselves or with product...forget it.

    In a few months, you should probably check again what your hair does when it's wet. It may give you clues as to what your curl pattern is. Good luck! :pr:
    last relaxer 08/08/09
    all natural since 7/30/10


    Shrinkage happens.
  • earthtones naturalsearthtones naturals Posts: 40Registered Users
    forbee wrote: »
    Hello I am new to the natural hair world I bc'd on Dec. 21, 2010:p. My last relaxer was the end of July 2010.. So right now I have about 2 inches of newgrowth. My question is does it take a few months before my curls start to define? I have used many different products>>>> Miss Jessie's curl pudding and quick curl, Carols Daughters hair milk curl booster, and Uncle funkys daughter curl magic. They all produced the same thing a shiny greasy afro:shock:. Someone please tell me what can i do ????

    It may take awhile, and you might have to use different products. I've heard that Miss Jessie's in particular has a lot of crap in it...no offense.

    I also don't want to be a Debbie Downer or anything, but I'd feel like I wasn't doing you justice if I didn't tell you that there's a chance that your curls may not define. (Wow that was a lot of negatives in one sentence...I hope it made sense lol.) If your hair is truly a 4b, in fact, they won't no matter how long your hair grows. Of course you can do twistouts, braidouts and whatever else there is to have a curly hairstyle but curls that clump by themselves or with product...forget it.

    In a few months, you should probably check again what your hair does when it's wet. It may give you clues as to what your curl pattern is. Good luck! :pr:

    Hi There!

    I don't necessarily agree that your curls won't define. I have extremely thick cottony 4b hair and I get amazing curl definition with the right product and application technique. Kinky Curly Curling Custard did nothing for me but Miracurl Curling Gelly is amazing for my hair and I recently created my own product which gives me even better moisture and curl definition. It took me a very long time to find the right product to use. So it's all about the right product and how it's applied. Check on Youtube and coilskinkscurls videos. She and I have a very similar curl pattern and cotton head and she gets amazing curl definition from the right products.
  • NinjaretteNinjarette Posts: 3,982Registered Users
    OP, your hair may show definition...and it may not. "May" is the important part. All "4b" types aren't the same. Wait and let your grow out, as forbee advised.

    I would ask myself what look am I trying to accomplish, if it can be done, and what it's going to take (products and time) to get it done.
    Platinum Product Junkies
    The Facebook
    | The Twitter

    The Product Lines:
    Curl Junkie, b.a.s.k, Siamese Twists, Bobeam, Uncle Funky's Daughter, Amazing Botanicals, Zuresh, Dabur Vatika, Karen's Body Beautiful, Curls Unleased, Broo, Qhemet Biologics, Signature Texture, Darcy's Botanicals, Shea Moisture
  • belwillcoilybelwillcoily Posts: 303Registered Users
    4b: Has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern. Instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"; has a cotton-like feel

    -NC.com Type 4 Hair Summary Page-

    I'm just venting here. This whole hair typing thing is so exasperating to me and exactly the reason why I gave up on it altogether. There are so many contradictions and inconsistencies with it.
    I really wish that Andre Walker hadn't even attempted to define tightly coiled/curled, highly textured, kinky, nappy (whatever you want to call it) hair.

    Now, I was told by someone on here (even though I didn't ask) that I was definitely 4b. The person who told me this, I'm sure, visited my Fotki, took a look at my texture and length shots; saw product-free wet hair with no visible curl pattern and knocked me back to my "place" in the curl hierarchy (no flames, please, this is just how I feel about hair typing. IMHO it is the new terminology for "good hair/bad hair").

    My hair does not have zig zags or sharp angles in it nor does it feel like cotton. I absolutely see s-curls and coils when it's wet but they are very, very small (coffee stirrer size) and very tightly coiled. My son has no s-curls but more very tight O-shaped coils. No zigging and zagging going on in his hair either. Yet I was classed as 4b and I'm sure my son (with even tighter coils than mine) would be placed in the same category.

    Now if I allow my hair to air dry after shampooing and do not add any product to it, it will look like this...
    phpsfn8nq.jpg

    But if a add a curl defining product to it (like KCCC) while it is soaking wet, I get very tiny ringlets, s-curls and O-shaped coils. It shrivels up once it dries, but the ringlets, s-curls, and O-shaped coils are still there locked and frozen into place and dare I say, "clumped and defined". But umm...how can that be when 4b hair doesn't have anything except Z-shaped patterns according to Mr. Walker? So does that make me 4a?

    But then there is the issue that I can only get clumped and defined curls/coils with product applied to soaking wet hair. So since my definition and clumping is "product induced" does that mean I'm 4b? You see how confusing it is?

    I've seen people who claim 4a and even 3c (on YouTube mainly) who if they don't put products on their hair and let it air dry it will look similar to the above pic so are they suddenly 4b too because their curls are defined with product and frizzy and undefined without it? And the confusion goes on and on for me...

    So then I circle back to a recurring question (for me anyway), what the heck is 4b hair? What does it look like? I don't know, I'm even more confused now than I was when the hair typing system first came on my radar. And I am so sure that many, many others (newbies and veterans alike) are just as confused.

    Then there is the divisiveness and a hint of "smugness" (for lack of a better term) from some (not all) Type 4 or Type 3c curlies regarding the whole 4a/4b subtype thing...

    Case in point, there was a thread on here awhile back where the OP said that she felt isolated from 4a and up curlies and asked if other so-called 4bers felt the same way. There were a few who replied that had decided they were 4b after all but confessed that they at first initially thought their hair was 4a or even 3c before they decided to claim 4b for their hair. Mainly the confusion over the hair typing system is why they allegedly "incorrectly" categorized their hair type.

    Well I was saddened to see some people responded to these 4b confessors and stated that they didn't see how ANYBODY with 4b hair can mistake it for 4a or especially not 3c and several "LOLs" were added for emphasis of what a "ridiculous" notion this was to them. And some other posters agreed and added their own "LOLs" or smilies of a laughing nature to their post. :sad7:

    This is why I feel strongly that this is just so divisive no matter how you slice it on top of being confusing for so-called Type 4 hair. Some of those with so-called 4a and up hair seem to feel it's laughable that anyone in the 4b category could think they have anything in common with THEIR hair type. Like I said, to me it's the old "good hair/bad hair" syndrome just with a different name and it hinders rather than helps women who decide to go relaxer-free (IMO).

    END OF VENT; going back to my hidey hole... :hiding:
    :afro: Me Fascina El Pelo :afro:




    Low Porosity; Medium Strands; Dense
  • CerendipityCerendipity Posts: 5,091Registered Users
    I claim type 4, one because I can make my hair look like a fro by combing it out and two because if I wet it with what and let it do what it does it curls.

    No more no less. I wear my hair 95% twisted , braided , or fro'd out , only in the summer is when I may rock a wash and go.

    Just keep taking care of your hair and achieve healthy hair ,all the other comes in later. You have to get to know it before you can attempt to style it.
  • MIA1487MIA1487 Posts: 85Registered Users
    .
  • ms_clawedms_clawed Posts: 57Registered Users
    4b: Has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern. Instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"; has a cotton-like feel

    -NC.com Type 4 Hair Summary Page-

    I'm just venting here. This whole hair typing thing is so exasperating to me and exactly the reason why I gave up on it altogether. There are so many contradictions and inconsistencies with it.
    I really wish that Andre Walker hadn't even attempted to define tightly coiled/curled, highly textured, kinky, nappy (whatever you want to call it) hair.

    Now, I was told by someone on here (even though I didn't ask) that I was definitely 4b. The person who told me this, I'm sure, visited my Fotki, took a look at my texture and length shots; saw product-free wet hair with no visible curl pattern and knocked me back to my "place" in the curl hierarchy (no flames, please, this is just how I feel about hair typing. IMHO it is the new terminology for "good hair/bad hair").

    My hair does not have zig zags or sharp angles in it nor does it feel like cotton. I absolutely see s-curls and coils when it's wet but they are very, very small (coffee stirrer size) and very tightly coiled. My son has no s-curls but more very tight O-shaped coils. No zigging and zagging going on in his hair either. Yet I was classed as 4b and I'm sure my son (with even tighter coils than mine) would be placed in the same category.

    Now if I allow my hair to air dry after shampooing and do not add any product to it, it will look like this...
    phpsfn8nq.jpg

    But if a add a curl defining product to it (like KCCC) while it is soaking wet, I get very tiny ringlets, s-curls and O-shaped coils. It shrivels up once it dries, but the ringlets, s-curls, and O-shaped coils are still there locked and frozen into place and dare I say, "clumped and defined". But umm...how can that be when 4b hair doesn't have anything except Z-shaped patterns according to Mr. Walker? So does that make me 4a?

    But then there is the issue that I can only get clumped and defined curls/coils with product applied to soaking wet hair. So since my definition and clumping is "product induced" does that mean I'm 4b? You see how confusing it is?

    I've seen people who claim 4a and even 3c (on YouTube mainly) who if they don't put products on their hair and let it air dry it will look similar to the above pic so are they suddenly 4b too because their curls are defined with product and frizzy and undefined without it? And the confusion goes on and on for me...

    So then I circle back to a recurring question (for me anyway), what the heck is 4b hair? What does it look like? I don't know, I'm even more confused now than I was when the hair typing system first came on my radar. And I am so sure that many, many others (newbies and veterans alike) are just as confused.

    Then there is the divisiveness and a hint of "smugness" (for lack of a better term) from some (not all) Type 4 or Type 3c curlies regarding the whole 4a/4b subtype thing...

    Case in point, there was a thread on here awhile back where the OP said that she felt isolated from 4a and up curlies and asked if other so-called 4bers felt the same way. There were a few who replied that had decided they were 4b after all but confessed that they at first initially thought their hair was 4a or even 3c before they decided to claim 4b for their hair. Mainly the confusion over the hair typing system is why they allegedly "incorrectly" categorized their hair type.

    Well I was saddened to see some people responded to these 4b confessors and stated that they didn't see how ANYBODY with 4b hair can mistake it for 4a or especially not 3c and several "LOLs" were added for emphasis of what a "ridiculous" notion this was to them. And some other posters agreed and added their own "LOLs" or smilies of a laughing nature to their post. :sad7:

    This is why I feel strongly that this is just so divisive no matter how you slice it on top of being confusing for so-called Type 4 hair. Some of those with so-called 4a and up hair seem to feel it's laughable that anyone in the 4b category could think they have anything in common with THEIR hair type. Like I said, to me it's the old "good hair/bad hair" syndrome just with a different name and it hinders rather than helps women who decide to go relaxer-free (IMO).

    END OF VENT; going back to my hidey hole... :hiding:
    :thumright: Yeah I agree with you!
    "You have one mind use it, one body take care of it, and one life live it!"

    MY ROUTINE:

    :banghead:
  • KinkyQuirkyKinkyQuirky Posts: 41Registered Users
    Sorry dp :/
    Last relaxer: May 30, 2010
    The Big Chop!: October 31, 2010
    Type 4 (Densely packed coils)
    Co-wash:Suave Naturals



  • KinkyQuirkyKinkyQuirky Posts: 41Registered Users
    Nooo @bellwillcoily don't go back to the hidey hole! lol I know EXACTLY how you feel.I'm a fairly new natural, but even I knew something was fishy about Andre's classification of 4b hair.I mean, "zig-zag" and "sharp angles"? Nobody's hair that I know grows out zig-zaged:confused5: I have seen split ends that result in sharp angles on hair strands, but anywho...

    I too can see very small coils in my hair when wet. However, I don't waste my time trying to "define" them. They are so densely packed and there always seems to be a halo of frizz that hides them. I've just come to accept that I will never be completely free of frizz, and that's alright with me. I'll share some pictures to show you what I'm working with. Sorry about these obnoxious sizes. I couldn't attach them for some reason.

    This is my hair airdried. Only shea butter was added as a sealant. No visible curls, just thick and fluffy looking :P

    magrpe.jpg

    Here it is again, still completely dry, but a bit closer. I know it's really hard to tell (I'm horrible with close ups lol), but can you see little coils on the ends?

    2dcfgye.jpg

    Even closer. This is just to show you that halo of frizz.

    330flnr.jpg


    On this pic, I hope you can see VERY tiny coils in the section I pointed to.

    2nrodnl.jpg

    And this is just a single coil, VERY small.

    2d81jer.jpg

    So yeah, by Andre's definition I am definitely NOT 4b, pshh zig zags:roll: But then again, my coils are not visible from a distance, which if I'm correct is a characteristic of 4a hair, which should mean I am 4b...Yeah, I'mma stop before I get anymore confused. Hopefully and expert will come in and clear things up lol.

    Oh and to the OP, your curls just may not be definable 'cause mine sure aren't! Or at least for now they aren't. Gel just sits on my hair, but that may change as I get out of the TWA stage. But I like my undefined fluffy fro! Unfortunately I can't wear it out now because it's winter :sad5: So, I frequent twist outs as of now.

    But on another note, what's up with the 4b section?? It's like slowly dying. We need more action up in here! Just think of how awesome it would be if it was as lively here as in the 4a section!

    I hope there are others with hair similar to mine. It'd be cool if I could find some! :happy3:
    Last relaxer: May 30, 2010
    The Big Chop!: October 31, 2010
    Type 4 (Densely packed coils)
    Co-wash:Suave Naturals



  • PreylyuPreylyu Posts: 6Registered Users
    Nooo @bellwillcoily don't go back to the hidey hole! lol I know EXACTLY how you feel.I'm a fairly new natural, but even I knew something was fishy about Andre's classification of 4b hair.I mean, "zig-zag" and "sharp angles"? Nobody's hair that I know grows out zig-zaged:confused5: I have seen split ends that result in sharp angles on hair strands, but anywho...

    I too can see very small coils in my hair when wet. However, I don't waste my time trying to "define" them. They are so densely packed and there always seems to be a halo of frizz that hides them. I've just come to accept that I will never be completely free of frizz, and that's alright with me. I'll share some pictures to show you what I'm working with. Sorry about these obnoxious sizes. I couldn't attach them for some reason.

    This is my hair airdried. Only shea butter was added as a sealant. No visible curls, just thick and fluffy looking :P

    magrpe.jpg

    Here it is again, still completely dry, but a bit closer. I know it's really hard to tell (I'm horrible with close ups lol), but can you see little coils on the ends?

    2dcfgye.jpg

    Even closer. This is just to show you that halo of frizz.

    330flnr.jpg


    On this pic, I hope you can see VERY tiny coils in the section I pointed to.

    2nrodnl.jpg

    And this is just a single coil, VERY small.

    2d81jer.jpg

    So yeah, by Andre's definition I am definitely NOT 4b, pshh zig zags:roll: But then again, my coils are not visible from a distance, which if I'm correct is a characteristic of 4a hair, which should mean I am 4b...Yeah, I'mma stop before I get anymore confused. Hopefully and expert will come in and clear things up lol.

    Oh and to the OP, your curls just may not be definable 'cause mine sure aren't! Or at least for now they aren't. Gel just sits on my hair, but that may change as I get out of the TWA stage. But I like my undefined fluffy fro! Unfortunately I can't wear it out now because it's winter :sad5: So, I frequent twist outs as of now.

    But on another note, what's up with the 4b section?? It's like slowly dying. We need more action up in here! Just think of how awesome it would be if it was as lively here as in the 4a section!

    I hope there are others with hair similar to mine. It'd be cool if I could find some! :happy3:

    Omg! My Hair Looks Just Like Yours.....Im So Happy That I Found Someone With Hair Like Mine On Here Because For A Minute I Felt Like I Didnt Belong On This Site....I Jst Had My Big Chop 2 Days Ago And Ive Been Worried That I Was Gonna Look Like A Fool With My TWA....I Do Like Playin With The Springs In My Hair Though...They Feel Awesome...Lol. Any Tips On How To Style This?
    Hair Name: Anise
    Type: Kinky Human
    High Porosity
    Last Relaxer: July 2009
    B/C: January 15, 2011
    Ultimate Goal: BSL Unstretched
    Trying To Learn How To Style And Care For Anise
    P.S. Hi! Im Upre'yl.! Im 17 And Im A Little Lost. Definitely New To This So I'd Love Any Help!
  • KinkyQuirkyKinkyQuirky Posts: 41Registered Users
    Preylyu wrote: »
    Omg! My Hair Looks Just Like Yours.....Im So Happy That I Found Someone With Hair Like Mine On Here Because For A Minute I Felt Like I Didnt Belong On This Site....I Jst Had My Big Chop 2 Days Ago And Ive Been Worried That I Was Gonna Look Like A Fool With My TWA....I Do Like Playin With The Springs In My Hair Though...They Feel Awesome...Lol. Any Tips On How To Style This?
    Oh really? Awesome! Your my first match then! What you can do with a TWA is limited because of the lack of hair, but I do twist outs. When I where my 'fro out, I usually wear a headband and it comes out pretty cute :) You can also pretty it up with cute flowers and bows.
    Last relaxer: May 30, 2010
    The Big Chop!: October 31, 2010
    Type 4 (Densely packed coils)
    Co-wash:Suave Naturals



  • MyHairIsMyHobbyMyHairIsMyHobby Posts: 25Registered Users
    Hi Ladies!
    I am still not sure what my hair type is. I have been natural for six months now and I have had some different experiences with my hair. One thing I do know is that all hair types can curl! It just depends on the texture and size of the curl. Like one of the posters said above, not all curls are created equally, so you really have to play around with different products to see what works for you.

    What specifically worked for me is Kinky Curly. The only thing I dislike about the KC products is that they leave your hair a little gooey before it dries, so use sparingly. Also, a lot of women do not like the smell! But, try it out, you may like it!

    Also check out this video that was posted on Curly Nikki's blog:Defining the Curl in 4b/4c Natural Hair | Curly Nikki | Natural Hair Styles and Curly Hair Care

    You may be opposed to using gel, but if you shingle, as the video shows, you WILL get some definition!

    Bottom Line: type four hair means that it may take a little more product to get the desired definition, but it is possible with some patience and experimentation! Good luck and PM me if you have any more questions!
    Last relaxer:
    April 1, 2010
    Shampoos:
    Elasta QP Creme Conditioning Shampoo
    Aubrey Organics HoneySuckle Rose Moisturizing Shampoo
    Conditioners:
    Trader Joe's Nourish Spa
    Alter Ego
    Really Loving My new Ayurvedic Regimen
    Currently Loving:
    Shea Moisture Curl Enhancing Creme and Spritz!
    Follow Me On Twitter: @CurlTheory


    event.png
  • ViomalvaViomalva Posts: 46Registered Users
    So much WORD to the whole z-shaped strands thing. Has anyone ever seen this in real life? And don't get me started on the 4b pictures that are used to demonstrate what it's supposed to look like lol.
  • itsKelCeeEeeitsKelCeeEee Posts: 1,084Registered Users
    Wtf is a Z strand? LMAO. Wow. Okay.

    First off, I'm not even gonna lie; when I first started my natural hair journey and figured out about the hair typing system, I was sure that I had to be a 3c because apparently that's the hairtype for most biracial/multiracials. So imagine my surprise when my TWA started getting bigger and my curls started unraveling so that my head resembled more of a mushroom cloud as opposed to naturally defined curls. I had to accept (luckily that didn't take long) that for one, you don't just have to have one hair type on your head. For another, I had to get over the fact that as a multi-racial chick, my hair just wasn't going to reach epic Rachel True proportions. And finally, I had to just realize...get over it. Your hair is YOUR hair, you didn't go natural just because you thought you'd have flowy curls (at least I hope not), and what comes out of your scalp is yours...which makes it absolutely beautiful.

    Oh. And that the hair typing system is complete crap.

    It does help some naturals realize what's good for their hair and what isn't as long as they don't go nuts over it, i'll give it that. But when you have people with tightly coiled hair trying to pull off looser curl patterns and they're using the wrong stuff in their hair and it gets all damaged...then there's a problem.

    I have to say that I have never seen a "z" shaped curl pattern though (not to say it doesn't exist) but shoot, I wish my head had some Zs! That sounds cool as a mofo. But the point is (and this is the truth), worry about keeping your hair as healthy as possible, because every hhead of long, healthy hair that I've seen looks much better than some damaged, coveted "3c" hair.

    That is all :)
    tumblr_mfb2v27JpJ1qfxenmo1_250.gif
    Big Chop: 11/25/09
    Cottony/fluffy, medium/coarse, high density & porosity
    SL - APL - BSB - BSL - MBL - WL - HL
  • belwillcoilybelwillcoily Posts: 303Registered Users
    Wtf is a Z strand? LMAO. Wow. Okay.

    First off, I'm not even gonna lie; when I first started my natural hair journey and figured out about the hair typing system, I was sure that I had to be a 3c because apparently that's the hairtype for most biracial/multiracials. So imagine my surprise when my TWA started getting bigger and my curls started unraveling so that my head resembled more of a mushroom cloud as opposed to naturally defined curls. I had to accept (luckily that didn't take long) that for one, you don't just have to have one hair type on your head. For another, I had to get over the fact that as a multi-racial chick, my hair just wasn't going to reach epic Rachel True proportions. And finally, I had to just realize...get over it. Your hair is YOUR hair, you didn't go natural just because you thought you'd have flowy curls (at least I hope not), and what comes out of your scalp is yours...which makes it absolutely beautiful.

    Oh. And that the hair typing system is complete crap.

    It does help some naturals realize what's good for their hair and what isn't as long as they don't go nuts over it, i'll give it that. But when you have people with tightly coiled hair trying to pull off looser curl patterns and they're using the wrong stuff in their hair and it gets all damaged...then there's a problem.

    I have to say that I have never seen a "z" shaped curl pattern though (not to say it doesn't exist) but shoot, I wish my head had some Zs! That sounds cool as a mofo. But the point is (and this is the truth), worry about keeping your hair as healthy as possible, because every hhead of long, healthy hair that I've seen looks much better than some damaged, coveted "3c" hair.

    That is all :)

    +1 to ALL of this!
    :afro: Me Fascina El Pelo :afro:




    Low Porosity; Medium Strands; Dense
  • belwillcoilybelwillcoily Posts: 303Registered Users
    Nooo @bellwillcoily don't go back to the hidey hole! lol I know EXACTLY how you feel.I'm a fairly new natural, but even I knew something was fishy about Andre's classification of 4b hair.I mean, "zig-zag" and "sharp angles"? Nobody's hair that I know grows out zig-zaged:confused5: I have seen split ends that result in sharp angles on hair strands, but anywho...

    I too can see very small coils in my hair when wet. However, I don't waste my time trying to "define" them. They are so densely packed and there always seems to be a halo of frizz that hides them. I've just come to accept that I will never be completely free of frizz, and that's alright with me. I'll share some pictures to show you what I'm working with. Sorry about these obnoxious sizes. I couldn't attach them for some reason.

    This is my hair airdried. Only shea butter was added as a sealant. No visible curls, just thick and fluffy looking :P

    magrpe.jpg

    Here it is again, still completely dry, but a bit closer. I know it's really hard to tell (I'm horrible with close ups lol), but can you see little coils on the ends?

    2dcfgye.jpg

    Even closer. This is just to show you that halo of frizz.

    330flnr.jpg


    On this pic, I hope you can see VERY tiny coils in the section I pointed to.

    2nrodnl.jpg

    And this is just a single coil, VERY small.

    2d81jer.jpg

    So yeah, by Andre's definition I am definitely NOT 4b, pshh zig zags:roll: But then again, my coils are not visible from a distance, which if I'm correct is a characteristic of 4a hair, which should mean I am 4b...Yeah, I'mma stop before I get anymore confused. Hopefully and expert will come in and clear things up lol.

    Oh and to the OP, your curls just may not be definable 'cause mine sure aren't! Or at least for now they aren't. Gel just sits on my hair, but that may change as I get out of the TWA stage. But I like my undefined fluffy fro! Unfortunately I can't wear it out now because it's winter :sad5: So, I frequent twist outs as of now.

    But on another note, what's up with the 4b section?? It's like slowly dying. We need more action up in here! Just think of how awesome it would be if it was as lively here as in the 4a section!

    I hope there are others with hair similar to mine. It'd be cool if I could find some! :happy3:

    KinkyQuirky, love your beautiful teeny, tiny coils! Your hair kind of reminds me of my son's. I know what you mean about the halo of frizz hiding the curly "definition" . My "defined and clumped" coils are so tiny you would have to get all up in the hair to see it. I'm able to get more visible "clumped and defined" tresses when I mold the hair with twists and do a twist out.


    And +1 to the bolded. I've pretty much given up on that pipe dream though. The 4b section has "spurts" of high activity if someone makes a post that gets everyone talking and commenting for awhile till the thread dies. Then 4b pretty much fades but doesn't go completely away until the next lively topic. I guess I just have to be content with that for now. I know for myself, a lot of times I'll post a question in 4a and 4b because I'm more likely to get a response from 4a quicker. 4bers respond, they just take their own sweet time (LOL!)
    :afro: Me Fascina El Pelo :afro:




    Low Porosity; Medium Strands; Dense
  • kdelishkdelish Posts: 85Registered Users
    Im new to being natural also. BC in dec 10. Sorta transitioned for about 3months because I got micro's in october a couple of weeks after a relaxer. I dont know what my hair type is so im gonna just say its a 4. what i did was looked on utube at tutorials. To figure out what to use and how to make my twa curl up.. so hereis what works for me
    1. co wash- with suave naturals coconut
    2. rinse out conditioner- herbal essence totally twisted lavender and jade extracts
    3. leave in giovanni- direct leave in
    4. oil- shea oil
    5. gel- eco style

    this really works for me to define my curls...
    look on u-tube for eco style gel for natural hairtutorials that will show you how to put it in your hair to make it curl. it really works

    since it cold out side i do all this as my nite time routine
    so when get home i just cowash then put in the herbal essence and put on a heat cap.. then get on my teadmill for about 30min and thats how i deep condition rite now. take a shower and rinse out HE and then add the other products to my hair and let it air dry.... this works for me
    hope this helps
  • GretchenGretchen Administrator Posts: 8,424Administrators, Moderators Administrator
    I just wanted to say welcome to Tenderloveandcurls! We're glad to have you!

    Gretchen
    NaturallyCurly.com co-founder
    3A

    You are beautiful!
  • PreylyuPreylyu Posts: 6Registered Users
    Preylyu wrote: »
    Omg! My Hair Looks Just Like Yours.....Im So Happy That I Found Someone With Hair Like Mine On Here Because For A Minute I Felt Like I Didnt Belong On This Site....I Jst Had My Big Chop 2 Days Ago And Ive Been Worried That I Was Gonna Look Like A Fool With My TWA....I Do Like Playin With The Springs In My Hair Though...They Feel Awesome...Lol. Any Tips On How To Style This?
    Oh really? Awesome! Your my first match then! What you can do with a TWA is limited because of the lack of hair, but I do twist outs. When I where my 'fro out, I usually wear a headband and it comes out pretty cute :) You can also pretty it up with cute flowers and bows.

    That's What Everyone's Been Saying....I Think Twists Sound Good Bt I Have Zero Idea How To Do Them....B4 I Went Natural, I Didnt Even Know How To Put My Hair In A Ponytail :sad10: So Part Of This Process Is Gettn To Kno My Hair And Takin Care Of It Bt Im Lost! Lol
    Hair Name: Anise
    Type: Kinky Human
    High Porosity
    Last Relaxer: July 2009
    B/C: January 15, 2011
    Ultimate Goal: BSL Unstretched
    Trying To Learn How To Style And Care For Anise
    P.S. Hi! Im Upre'yl.! Im 17 And Im A Little Lost. Definitely New To This So I'd Love Any Help!
  • BoyheadBoyhead Posts: 51Registered Users
    4b: Has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern. Instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"; has a cotton-like feel

    -NC.com Type 4 Hair Summary Page-

    I'm just venting here. This whole hair typing thing is so exasperating to me and exactly the reason why I gave up on it altogether. There are so many contradictions and inconsistencies with it.
    I really wish that Andre Walker hadn't even attempted to define tightly coiled/curled, highly textured, kinky, nappy (whatever you want to call it) hair.

    Now, I was told by someone on here (even though I didn't ask) that I was definitely 4b. The person who told me this, I'm sure, visited my Fotki, took a look at my texture and length shots; saw product-free wet hair with no visible curl pattern and knocked me back to my "place" in the curl hierarchy (no flames, please, this is just how I feel about hair typing. IMHO it is the new terminology for "good hair/bad hair").

    My hair does not have zig zags or sharp angles in it nor does it feel like cotton. I absolutely see s-curls and coils when it's wet but they are very, very small (coffee stirrer size) and very tightly coiled. My son has no s-curls but more very tight O-shaped coils. No zigging and zagging going on in his hair either. Yet I was classed as 4b and I'm sure my son (with even tighter coils than mine) would be placed in the same category.

    Now if I allow my hair to air dry after shampooing and do not add any product to it, it will look like this...
    phpsfn8nq.jpg

    But if a add a curl defining product to it (like KCCC) while it is soaking wet, I get very tiny ringlets, s-curls and O-shaped coils. It shrivels up once it dries, but the ringlets, s-curls, and O-shaped coils are still there locked and frozen into place and dare I say, "clumped and defined". But umm...how can that be when 4b hair doesn't have anything except Z-shaped patterns according to Mr. Walker? So does that make me 4a?

    But then there is the issue that I can only get clumped and defined curls/coils with product applied to soaking wet hair. So since my definition and clumping is "product induced" does that mean I'm 4b? You see how confusing it is?

    I've seen people who claim 4a and even 3c (on YouTube mainly) who if they don't put products on their hair and let it air dry it will look similar to the above pic so are they suddenly 4b too because their curls are defined with product and frizzy and undefined without it? And the confusion goes on and on for me...

    So then I circle back to a recurring question (for me anyway), what the heck is 4b hair? What does it look like? I don't know, I'm even more confused now than I was when the hair typing system first came on my radar. And I am so sure that many, many others (newbies and veterans alike) are just as confused.

    Then there is the divisiveness and a hint of "smugness" (for lack of a better term) from some (not all) Type 4 or Type 3c curlies regarding the whole 4a/4b subtype thing...

    Case in point, there was a thread on here awhile back where the OP said that she felt isolated from 4a and up curlies and asked if other so-called 4bers felt the same way. There were a few who replied that had decided they were 4b after all but confessed that they at first initially thought their hair was 4a or even 3c before they decided to claim 4b for their hair. Mainly the confusion over the hair typing system is why they allegedly "incorrectly" categorized their hair type.

    Well I was saddened to see some people responded to these 4b confessors and stated that they didn't see how ANYBODY with 4b hair can mistake it for 4a or especially not 3c and several "LOLs" were added for emphasis of what a "ridiculous" notion this was to them. And some other posters agreed and added their own "LOLs" or smilies of a laughing nature to their post. :sad7:

    This is why I feel strongly that this is just so divisive no matter how you slice it on top of being confusing for so-called Type 4 hair. Some of those with so-called 4a and up hair seem to feel it's laughable that anyone in the 4b category could think they have anything in common with THEIR hair type. Like I said, to me it's the old "good hair/bad hair" syndrome just with a different name and it hinders rather than helps women who decide to go relaxer-free (IMO).

    END OF VENT; going back to my hidey hole... :hiding:

    I totally agree. I don't know what type of hair I have, alls (yes I said alls -- I'm from NY) I know is that I have different textures growing all over and I like all of them. I think it's silly to claim one over the other and I also fully agree that there seems to be a covert class system when it comes to hair and hair typing --- again, it's one other thing to divide. I think all hair is beautiful - and I just hope that we can refrain from Hair Segregation! "We shall over come"...
    1st BC - rocked a TWA
    2nd BC - rocked a Caesar
    "I've made up my mind to remain steadfast in the realm of coils, curlicues, kinks, and waves...says this this WestIndianCoily

    Oh, and I don't believe in Curl Cream anything... :protest:
  • KinkyQuirkyKinkyQuirky Posts: 41Registered Users


    KinkyQuirky, love your beautiful teeny, tiny coils! Your hair kind of reminds me of my son's. I know what you mean about the halo of frizz hiding the curly "definition" . My "defined and clumped" coils are so tiny you would have to get all up in the hair to see it. I'm able to get more visible "clumped and defined" tresses when I mold the hair with twists and do a twist out.


    And +1 to the bolded. I've pretty much given up on that pipe dream though. The 4b section has "spurts" of high activity if someone makes a post that gets everyone talking and commenting for awhile till the thread dies. Then 4b pretty much fades but doesn't go completely away until the next lively topic. I guess I just have to be content with that for now. I know for myself, a lot of times I'll post a question in 4a and 4b because I'm more likely to get a response from 4a quicker. 4bers respond, they just take their own sweet time (LOL!)

    Thank you! Ditto on the twist outs. With such thick hair, they look so full and nice! I have noticed that pattern here also and yeah it's pretty disappointing. I'd like to learn more about 4b hair from other naturals that have it, but that's kinda hard when this thread is as slow as it is. But, ah well.Can't have everything I want lol
    Last relaxer: May 30, 2010
    The Big Chop!: October 31, 2010
    Type 4 (Densely packed coils)
    Co-wash:Suave Naturals



  • naturalgirlsrock.comnaturalgirlsrock.com Posts: 1Registered Users
    You can watch the complete video at:

    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fmy_videos_edit%3Fns%3D1%26amp%3Bvideo_id%3Dk8tHe0AEQYA%26amp%3Bnext%3D%252Fmy_videos" class="Popup

    The following are the steps to follow:

    1. Co-wash hair with the conditioner of your choice. I use Giovanni Deep Moisture conditioner.
    2. Lightly apply a leave-in conditioner of your choice. I use Cantu Shea Butter leave in condidtioner.
    3. Spray your hair with plain water or a Spritz of your liking. I use a vegatable glycerin spritz I make myself (8 oz. of water, 4 tbsp of veg glycerin, 10 drops of rosemary).
    4. Strategically apply a good amount of gel; by this I mean rub the gel between your palms and spread it on from the back of your head making sure to get "under/inside" of your curls. Do the same in the other directions. I use Eco Styler Gel.
    5. Spray more spritz. This helps to define the curls and also keeps you from damaging your hair in the next step.
    6. Rub your hand is a circular motion in sections and the curls will begin to form. The key is the amount of pressure you put on the hand and how big or small of circle you make. Big circles: big curls...Small circles: small curls. You'll probably have to do it a couple of time before you get it exactly how you like it.
    7. It literally take less than 10 minutes. You can it everyday or make it last a few days. If requested, I can do a video on how to make it last. ************COMING SOON: NATURALGIRLSROCK.COM**************
  • kinkycurlyDTkinkycurlyDT Posts: 380Registered Users
    4b: Has a "Z" pattern, less of a defined curl pattern. Instead of curling or coiling, the hair bends in sharp angles like the letter "Z"; has a cotton-like feel

    -NC.com Type 4 Hair Summary Page-

    I'm just venting here. This whole hair typing thing is so exasperating to me and exactly the reason why I gave up on it altogether. There are so many contradictions and inconsistencies with it.
    I really wish that Andre Walker hadn't even attempted to define tightly coiled/curled, highly textured, kinky, nappy (whatever you want to call it) hair.

    Now, I was told by someone on here (even though I didn't ask) that I was definitely 4b. The person who told me this, I'm sure, visited my Fotki, took a look at my texture and length shots; saw product-free wet hair with no visible curl pattern and knocked me back to my "place" in the curl hierarchy (no flames, please, this is just how I feel about hair typing. IMHO it is the new terminology for "good hair/bad hair").

    My hair does not have zig zags or sharp angles in it nor does it feel like cotton. I absolutely see s-curls and coils when it's wet but they are very, very small (coffee stirrer size) and very tightly coiled. My son has no s-curls but more very tight O-shaped coils. No zigging and zagging going on in his hair either. Yet I was classed as 4b and I'm sure my son (with even tighter coils than mine) would be placed in the same category.

    Now if I allow my hair to air dry after shampooing and do not add any product to it, it will look like this...
    phpsfn8nq.jpg

    But if a add a curl defining product to it (like KCCC) while it is soaking wet, I get very tiny ringlets, s-curls and O-shaped coils. It shrivels up once it dries, but the ringlets, s-curls, and O-shaped coils are still there locked and frozen into place and dare I say, "clumped and defined". But umm...how can that be when 4b hair doesn't have anything except Z-shaped patterns according to Mr. Walker? So does that make me 4a?

    But then there is the issue that I can only get clumped and defined curls/coils with product applied to soaking wet hair. So since my definition and clumping is "product induced" does that mean I'm 4b? You see how confusing it is?

    I've seen people who claim 4a and even 3c (on YouTube mainly) who if they don't put products on their hair and let it air dry it will look similar to the above pic so are they suddenly 4b too because their curls are defined with product and frizzy and undefined without it? And the confusion goes on and on for me...

    So then I circle back to a recurring question (for me anyway), what the heck is 4b hair? What does it look like? I don't know, I'm even more confused now than I was when the hair typing system first came on my radar. And I am so sure that many, many others (newbies and veterans alike) are just as confused.

    Then there is the divisiveness and a hint of "smugness" (for lack of a better term) from some (not all) Type 4 or Type 3c curlies regarding the whole 4a/4b subtype thing...

    Case in point, there was a thread on here awhile back where the OP said that she felt isolated from 4a and up curlies and asked if other so-called 4bers felt the same way. There were a few who replied that had decided they were 4b after all but confessed that they at first initially thought their hair was 4a or even 3c before they decided to claim 4b for their hair. Mainly the confusion over the hair typing system is why they allegedly "incorrectly" categorized their hair type.

    Well I was saddened to see some people responded to these 4b confessors and stated that they didn't see how ANYBODY with 4b hair can mistake it for 4a or especially not 3c and several "LOLs" were added for emphasis of what a "ridiculous" notion this was to them. And some other posters agreed and added their own "LOLs" or smilies of a laughing nature to their post. :sad7:

    This is why I feel strongly that this is just so divisive no matter how you slice it on top of being confusing for so-called Type 4 hair. Some of those with so-called 4a and up hair seem to feel it's laughable that anyone in the 4b category could think they have anything in common with THEIR hair type. Like I said, to me it's the old "good hair/bad hair" syndrome just with a different name and it hinders rather than helps women who decide to go relaxer-free (IMO).

    END OF VENT; going back to my hidey hole... :hiding:


    GIRL! You hair is beautiful! I cant wait until my hair gets that length!:love5:
  • kinkycurlyDTkinkycurlyDT Posts: 380Registered Users
    I use 100% aloe vera gel when i want great curl definition. most of my 4b hair is in the front, and most of my 4a hair is on the sides and in the backlk. The aloe vera gel works wonderfully! Make sure to use some with NO alcohol!:afro:
  • kinkycurlyDTkinkycurlyDT Posts: 380Registered Users
    I use 100% aloe vera gel on my hair when i want great curl definition! Make sure to use some with NO ALCOHOL IN IT! but the aloe vera gel works wonderuflly!!! :):afro:
  • crownroyallecrownroyalle Posts: 8Registered Users
    I am so glad I read this! I definitely get a curl pattern when I use aloe vera gel, so I was a bit confused on my hair type. If I don't use any product I have a wonderful afro, but when I do the gel when my hair is wet I get the "o" curls. they are very tightly coiled and shrinkage is almost funny. Glad to know I am not alone.

    The ONLY reason I really care about hair types is to determine what products work best for me. Obviously that doesn't matter much either, I just have to test everything out on my own. (not good for my bank account)
  • Kinkii_LewinskiiKinkii_Lewinskii Posts: 49Registered Users
    ***taking notes*** :bunny:
    I Halibel

    Natural
    , 4a/b


    Wet Hair

    event.png

    Empress Halibel -|- Sacred Guardian of the Kinky Realms & Grand Wielder of the Coiled Light -|- in the Order of the Curly Crusaders
  • rakakanrakakan Posts: 19Registered Users
    This is an illuminating thread. I'll have to try one or two of the products here and see if any fit my hair type(s). Count yourselves lucky if you don't have more than one. ;)
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