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could my hair actually LIKE some sulfates?

Okay, I"m confused:

curly girl routine = over conditionioned, too soft hair with no curl definition

no sulfate shampoo= dry, tangly hair that has a weird rough texture

No Poo= some very good hair days, but too expensive to use all the time

What next? I've tried three different sulfate free shampoos-Burts Bees Raspberry Moisture, Paves, and Freeman...and some other brand from Whole Foods called EO.

Help! Any input would be appreciated? I'm guessing using shampoos with gentler sulfates? Please remind me which ones are less evil :lol: Maybe I should try some Nature's Gate, Jason or Aubrey Organics shampoo with low sulfates?

Thanks!
Sherry

Comments

  • medusahairmedusahair Posts: 3,515Registered Users
    Watch the no sulfates shampoos from teh health food stores, I know for sure Jason's has a cone in it. It makes my hair very tangly.

    Activate makes a very good shampoo no cones and no harsh cleansers and it's pretty reasonable. I like creme of nature, it's cheap, found at walmart and not drying although some do find it is too conditioning. For the price it's worth a try though if you like No poo.

    If you want a mild shampoo Elucence makes one, moisture balancing shampoo. You can buy it pretty cheap by the liter and a little goes a long
    way.

    ETA: oh and yes your hair could like sulfates. Maybe they take off what weighs your hair down and lets the curls spring back up.
    2c/3a?
    Low porosity, medium texture.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2FMedusahair%2F" class="Popup

    If it smells good put it in your hair, if it tastes good spit it out!
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    May I ask which COs/gels you used during your CG attempt? I'm convinced it's not the routine that doesn't work for some people but the products they choose, with the right ones for your hair type it should help it curl better. While some of us experience immediate success others have to try 2 or 3 times before getting it right so perhaps you could just start over with different products than the first time (and make sure to read the entire book again because of all the styling tips included).
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • three rivers curlythree rivers curly Posts: 994Registered Users
    I had a very similar experience - and I tried CG 3 times. It is a shame, because I really like natural products - but low sulfate products turned me into a dry tangly mess as well.

    I love sulfates. And because I use sulfates, I can use cones. My hair is decent most days instead of occasionally. I guess you have to pick your battles - at least I recycle the containers from my products! :D
    Better everyone think your a fool, than to open your mouth and prove them right.

    Perception is not reality.

    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2Fhmiklos" class="Popup
  • juvjoyjuvjoy Posts: 670Registered Users
    threerivers: LOL! UR to funny :)

    Kim
  • sherry7899sherry7899 Posts: 897Registered Users
    Hi,


    Thank you for your replies! I used shampoo this morning-V05 Blushin Apple gentle cleansing (great scent, btw) and my curls look much better. Go figure!

    As far as Co-washes, I've used all the favorites-Suave Coconut, milk and honey and aloe...V05 Kiwi Lime, etc.

    I may try Activate Shampoo. The only place I can get it is Ulta, and I'm staying out of there. I spend too much money whenever I go in there..plus there's a Sally's, Target, Kohls and Borders in the same shopping center, so it's dangerous for my Visa card :roll:

    I've used CG friendly Suave and Aussie gels.

    Thanks for your help-
    Sherry
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    Although it seems you've already made your choice, I decided to post again for the benefit of other "newbies" who wish to start out right. The following point is extremely important for succeeding at CG:

    Despite all you may have heard, cheap COs like Suave & VO5 ARE NOT TRULY CG COMPATIBLE!!! Some people get lucky and have no problems but there are many variables to consider for that to happen and they include the type water you use, oiliness of scalp, type of hair/curl and whether hair is reasonably healthy or not.

    The CG book outlines what to look for in a CO but the only thing most people remember is "to avoid 'cones", however, there's much more to choosing a good CO than that. None of those cheap COs contain oils and even thought the book doesn't directly say so essential oils are very helpful as many have cleansing and conditioning properties. That's why DevaCurl, DevaCare (of course!) and Jessicurl are among the best for CG, they contain those ingredients. I have said it here many times but I'll repeat it again: essential oils can help break down residue from some 'cones AND plastic resins present in styling products!

    Suave COs specifically are waxy, which can make detangling difficult and cause build up, particularly where the water is harder. I started out with Suave (because I had 2 or 3 at home) and my results went from disappointing to downright horrid. I turned back to the book for help and realized I'd ignored the above basic guidelines in choosing a good CO. So I ran and purchased a bottle of Avalon Organics Lavender (which had 4 essential oils and jojoba oil) and the difference was as from night to day. I was lucky enough to find an inexpensive cholesterol treatment containing essential oils of tea tree and peppermint and 3 vegetable oils and I used it for washing saving the Avalon just for conditioning. Even though I tried and liked flaxseed gel I really didn't even need a gel to have well-defined, glossy, frizz-free curls (on colored hair) so for about a year those two COs and an oil moisturizer were all the products I used.

    For those who don't know me, I first came to NC.com in April of '02 and was a regular until Dec. '04 and during that time witnessed how dozens of curlies turned their disappointment to success by switching COs. You won't hear from them because most of them never returned here once they achieved "hair bliss", only a few stayed to try to help newcomers.

    So again, if the routine isn't working, take a look at your products, if they aren't right the routine CAN'T work right.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • CurlyRedChicCurlyRedChic Posts: 43Registered Users
    Personally, I think that some hair just responds better to sulfates. However, it took me a long time to realize this. I tried the curly girl thing, I tried the sulfate free thing and I didn't use cheap products...I bought the entire Jessicurl line and when that didn't work tried the entire devacurl line. I was determined to make these products work. Devacurl worked at first, but after a while my hair got weighted down. While I loved the scent of Jessicurl products the oils were too much for my hair and my hair always got cotton ball frizz. I do better with a sulfate shampoo 3 times a week. My hair looks so much better now. It's all about finding a balance of what works for you. Good Luck!
  • medusahairmedusahair Posts: 3,515Registered Users
    Avalon Organic Botanicals Conditioner, Lavender 11 oz.
    Is this the name of the conditioner you like to use on your CG routine?

    Perhaps you missed my post while answering the last one, we must have posted at the same time :)

    The avalon organic botanicals conditioner, the lavendar one has these ingredients.

    Certified organic lavandula angustifolia (lavender), calendula officinalis (calendula) and lonicera caprifolium (honeysuckle) flower extracts (aqueous), certified organic helianthus annuus (sunflower) oil, cetyl alcohol, stearyl alcohol, stearic acid, soyamidopropalkonium chloride, cetrimonium chloride, cyclopentasiloxane, emulsifying wax, beta-glucan (oat), certified organic orbignya oleifera (babassu) seed oil, panthenol (pro-vitamin B5), bisabolol (chamomile), arginine (amino acid), babassuamadopropalkonium chloride, ethylhexylglycerin, sodium chloride, tocopherol (vitamin E), and certified organic lavandula

    That cone would definitely make a big difference in how smooth hair is. I can't find an avalon one so far in the list that didn't have this cone or demithicone.

    What EO do you use to take that off?
    2c/3a?
    Low porosity, medium texture.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2FMedusahair%2F" class="Popup

    If it smells good put it in your hair, if it tastes good spit it out!
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    CurlyRedChick:

    When your hair started to get weighed down it was trying to tell you it had been conditioned enough, not necessarily that the CG routine wasn't for you. I have fine hair and if my hair detangles well when I rinse it I do not apply any CO at all (I learned this from another curly, btw), spritzing with lavender spray gives it a fresh-washed scent. Also, it's a good idea to rotate COs after a while and/or when the seasons change.

    However, the modified routine for wavies includes shampooing occasionally. A good hint is also to dilute the SLS shampoo in 3-4 parts warm water, they are pretty concentrated "as is" and they're better distributed this way (and also more economical).

    In any case, there's much more to the routine than just not using shampoo - like the advice on how to handle our hair, how to style it, color it and cut it. :)
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    Because I have said it so many times before, I forgot to mention I used the ORIGINAL A.L., before that silicone was added; by looking at the list you posted here they changed/added other things too. I still have one bottle of the old one from the "stash" I bought when it was discontinued and I still like it a lot. I've been "studying" labels of other "natural" Cos out there and as of yet haven't seen one that I feel could be like A.L. so I've even been thinking of making my own.

    My wash CO, Lustrasilk Cholesterol Treatment with Tea Tree Oil (which also had peppermint oil and 3 vegetable oils) was also changed, now it contains mineral oil, for which reason I can't buy either now.

    However, I've recently used products with that 'cone (and others) and just do a vinegar rinse after a couple of times and haven't had need to shampoo.

    It's just too bad the website where I got info about oils dissolving 'cones (and plastic resins) it's not up anymore because it would've been great if you could see for yourself why some oils work for this purpose. While I was using Lustrasilk I never clarified and I never had a problem with build-up of any kind. After reading that article I realized my lucky choice of that CO for washing had kept my hair build-up free.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • dabadckgrldabadckgrl Posts: 36Registered Users
    I just purchased creme of nature and like it a lot. I got the body building one. I don't think it overly conditions my hair. I tried Paves and that was the worst stuff that I have ever put on my hair. :evil:
    Colored & Highlighted, trying to cover the gray, 2c curls past my shoulders. Shea Moisture Thickening Shampoo, Leave in Kinky Curly Knot, Next day curl refresher spray: kinky curly curling custard mixed with distilled water and Jojoba oil. Pomade Kinky Curly Gloss Pomade. Kinky Curly Spiral Spritz.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    Cream of Nature is a good alternative, it used to be very popular among curlies who shampoo a couple of years ago, especially the one with polydecylglucose (can't remember which one it is...).
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • sherry7899sherry7899 Posts: 897Registered Users
    Hi,

    Thank you everyone for your information and tips.

    Halfwavy/halfcurly: Are there any conditioners from health food stores that you recommend for co-washing? I'm looking for something under eight dollars or so, such as Nature's Gate? I can't afford high end brands.
    My hair is medium fine, a mixture of 3A/3B and a little dry. I don't usually have problems with tangling, and my hair is much less frizzy than it used to be.

    Paves was also the worst product I've ever used on my hair. Luckily I was able to return it.

    Creme of Nature: I haven't tried this yet-which type of conditioner do you recommend for co-wash? I don't think I need the body building type. Is there another kind available? Does anyone use the shampoo?

    I have ordered a Jessicurl trial pack. I'll report back with results!

    I wish the cheaper products worked well for me-oh, well....

    Thank you so much!
    Sherry
  • medusahairmedusahair Posts: 3,515Registered Users
    vinegar does nothing to get cones off my hair. It does balance my ph and make my hair curl up though.

    dabadckgrl the regular one doesn't over condition my hair either. Nice to find something inexpensive that works


    Sherry if your hair likes oils you'll be in heaven with JC. My hair isn't as oil friendly as some so it's a bit much for me but boy her TooShea makes a good DT for me. Happy experimenting! It's part of the fun :D
    2c/3a?
    Low porosity, medium texture.
    /home/leaving?target=http%3A%2F%2Fpublic.fotki.com%2FMedusahair%2F" class="Popup

    If it smells good put it in your hair, if it tastes good spit it out!
  • CelticCurlsCelticCurls Posts: 558Registered Users
    Sherry, if No Poo works for you, you might just want to stick with it. I used it, alternating w/ V05 Kiwi from 02-04 (I've been around about as long as Half Wavy :lol: ) for the 2 yrs I did full CG. I have hair down the middle of my back, & I only need a tsp of the stuff. It's really quite economical compared to other products. One bottle used to last me 3 months.

    I've now been modified-CGthe last 3 yrs; if you're ready to go non-sulphate poo (ie, betaine based usually), a whole world of products opens up for you. I use ABBA Creme Moist lately. It's not cheap, about the same as Devacurl, but an 8oz bottle lasts me 4 months and it's available everywhere, even here. I also really like Curl Junkie's two moisturizing, very gentle poos. Jessicurls Cleansing cream was less moisture for me. My far & away favorite is still Shikai Color Reflect, which I used to get at health stores, but now order online from inter-naturals.com bcuz their prices & shipping rates are so great. This stuff never dries out my hair and keeps my highlights bright.

    I remember when CG first took this place by storm. The concepts did help many, but many of also found they were too extreme and inflexible and instead we just incorporated the ideas that worked for us into a modified version of CG, or simply just became more product aware & chose gentler 'poos. My looks far, far better since I began using non-sulfate poo sparingly & using amodimethicone more. Even the founder of CG embraced that one.
    3B, bra-strap length
    laidback, very-modified CGer
    HG: GF Sleek 'n Shine Leave-in; Alagio
  • sherry7899sherry7899 Posts: 897Registered Users
    Celtic curls,

    Thank you for your supportive post. I really appreciate it. I think what I need to do is figure out what works for my own hair. I just don't think strict curly girl works for my hair, and I can't afford to keep buying umpteen different products to figure out what works. I also don't want to spend so much time/energy on my hair...I just want to find a routine that works and stick with it. I'm tired of experimenting.

    I do have some Abba shampoo-I think it's Creme Moist. I've seen Shikai at Whole Foods and Wegman's grocery store (lovely grocery store-they have tons of natural hair products)

    How often do you use shampoo, and do you condition every day?

    Medusahair,

    I don't know if my hair likes oils or not, but I'll be finding out! I'm eager to try Jessicurl. I'm sorry the products did not work for you. Thanks so much for your advice.

    Pleae take care-
    Sherry
  • DrainCloggerDrainClogger Posts: 73Registered Users
    I'm a wavy 2 like you...I've found that I need shampoo, but less often.....about once everyt 3-5 days and CO wash in bewteen. Sort of a modified CG that works for me.
    2C in most weather, but in summertime I impersonate a 3 very very well!
  • SuZenSuZen Posts: 1,595Registered Users
    Sherry, that Pave shampoo has gotten almost universal boos from the curlies here. It is very drying, in spite of being non-sulfate. It may be that you just haven't found the right non-sulfate shampoo. If you don't mind ordering products, either [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-LowPoo-p-54.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-lowpoo]Devacurl Low-Poo[/buylink] or [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/Jessicurl-Hair-Cleansing-Cream-p-103.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=jessicurl-hair-cleansing-cream]Jessicurl Hair Cleansing Cream[/buylink] or Gentle Lather might be good for you. Or I would also recommend Activate.
  • sherry7899sherry7899 Posts: 897Registered Users
    SuZen,

    Is there a big difference between Lo Poo and No Poo? I already have [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-No-Poo-p-53.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-nopoo]Devacurl No Poo[/buylink]. Should I try DevaCare (I have highlights) Lo Poo, even though my hair is dry? This is so confusing :D I apologize for asking the same questions more than once.

    I did order a Jessicurl rich trial pack, which I can't wait to try.

    I'll pick up Activate next time I'm at Ulta. None of the Rite Aid or Walgreens near me have it.

    I wish I'd read reviews about Paves before I'd bought it.

    Thanks!
    Sherry
  • SuZenSuZen Posts: 1,595Registered Users
    sherry7899 wrote:
    SuZen,

    Is there a big difference between Lo Poo and No Poo? I already have [buylink=http://www.curlmart.com/DevaCurl-No-Poo-p-53.html?utm_source=naturallycurly.com&utm_medium=text-link&utm_content=curltalk-post-text&utm_campaign=devacurl-devacurl-nopoo]Devacurl No Poo[/buylink]. Should I try DevaCare (I have highlights) Lo Poo, even though my hair is dry? This is so confusing :D I apologize for asking the same questions more than once.

    I did order a Jessicurl rich trial pack, which I can't wait to try.

    I'll pick up Activate next time I'm at Ulta. None of the Rite Aid or Walgreens near me have it.

    I wish I'd read reviews about Paves before I'd bought it.

    Thanks!

    Sherry

    Low Poo is a non-sulfate shampoo, while No-Poo is a conditioner for washing, not a shampoo. You can use another conditioner for washing, if No-Poo is too expensive. I think you said your hair seemed to get overconditioned on CG, so you might want to try a less-rich conditioner than No-Poo for CO-washing. Many people (including myself) like inexpensive conditioners like Suave or V05 for this purpose.
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    Sherry:

    I can't believe what just happened. I was more than halfway down a list of "natural" COs with comments about each when somehow by mistake I closed the window. I'd been sitting here for nearly 2 hours doing searches and simultaneously typing my findings so now I'll have to start all over (this time on a Word document!).

    And sorry I didn't reply sooner, I didn't get online on Sunday (12/3).
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    Sherry:

    If you're still interested in the COs from the health food store PM me with your e-mail address so I can send you the list of products I made (with their ingredients list). It's too long to post here.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • SweetPicklesSweetPickles Posts: 850Registered Users
    May I ask which COs/gels you used during your CG attempt? I'm convinced it's not the routine that doesn't work for some people but the products they choose, with the right ones for your hair type it should help it curl better. While some of us experience immediate success others have to try 2 or 3 times before getting it right so perhaps you could just start over with different products than the first time (and make sure to read the entire book again because of all the styling tips included).
    No offense, but some of us have read the book, have picked the right products, and have followed the routine *correctly*, but have learned that the CG routine just sometimes doesn't work for our particular hair types. In my case, my hair is just not even a little bit dry (it's oily in fact, despite that Massey insists the oily/curly hair combo is an impossibility!) and is REALLY healthy (my new stylist was just commenting on this at my last cut in fact). I could try products from now until forever, and my hair just doesn't respond to this routine. It does not universally work for everyone.

    But Massey's book did provide some useful ideas that I have implemented into my sulfate-shampooing-occasional-"bad"-product-using-color-treating-daily-diffusing routine. That's what's most important, learning to appreciate what you have and learning to find what works best for you. I'm sure you'll figure it out Sherry!
    Hair type: Completely confused: mostly 3a, some 3b parts, and even 2 in places; very fine and thin.
    Products: Elucence clarifying & MBC; CK, F/X Curl Booster Fixative Gel (when I can find it)
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    No offense taken but I always wonder WHY someone comes out of the woodwork to try to say something I didn't. You just quoted me, so why couldn't you notice that I just said the routine doesn't work for SOME people because of wrong product choice??? Others may have a problem like you, however, I even saw curlies with oily scalps succeed with just CO when they chose one with essential oils that help that condition, they help stabilize their overactive glands. And frankly, unless people are into aromatherapy or decide to do research on essential oils, I don't think it's a subject of "common" knowledge to everyone.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)
  • SweetPicklesSweetPickles Posts: 850Registered Users
    HWHC, I'd hardly consider myself to have been lurking in woodwork (I rarely post on the various hair boards anymore because I've finally figured out my hair, don't feel the need to try new products anymore, and subsequently don't really have much to contribute to most of the current discussions going on!), but I'll answer your question:

    I know I personally have felt on more than one occasion, and not because of you in this thread or elsewhere in the forums, that if the CG routine didn't work for me, it was because I was either just doing it wrong or was unable to figure it out properly--that if I had just tried harder or done it *right,* it would have completely changed my hair for the better like it has done for many, many other people. I was just pointing out that the issues the OP was having maybe weren't with technique or product, and that it's perfectly okay if the CG ends up not being right for someone. Honestly, having seen the miracle that CG has worked for so many folks, I am jealous that my hair didn't respond similarly.
    Hair type: Completely confused: mostly 3a, some 3b parts, and even 2 in places; very fine and thin.
    Products: Elucence clarifying & MBC; CK, F/X Curl Booster Fixative Gel (when I can find it)
  • itsjustmeghanitsjustmeghan Posts: 652Registered Users
    i am a sulfate user and proud of it!
    cg didn't work for me. my hair worked okay with it when it was really dry and unhealthy, but once i cut off the dead stuff, my hair was limp lifeless and overconditioned. i tried it several times, with several different products. it just doesn't work for everyone, and i don't think you should feel bad if you want to use sulfates. go for it!
    i personally love the elucence line. i wash my hair with their moisture balancing shampoo and once a month i use their clarifier because i have hard water. i love their conditioner too.
    i still don't use products with cones, just because they're the ones that work for me right now.
    my hair is very predictable and reliable now. where as, pre CG and on CG it was never consistent.
    now? my hair and i get along great! :D
    3A Once again on the quest for BSL healthy curly hair....
  • HalfWavyHalfCurlyHalfWavyHalfCurly Posts: 907Registered Users
    Sweetpickles:

    If I have in any way contributed to making you feel like you didn't do things right, I'm sorry. The reason I am here is really to help other curlies since, like you, I figured out the needs of my hair long ago.

    The reason I say that so often is because I KNOW (and you do too...) that there are lots of people trying to do the routine just from bits and pieces they catch in the forums or hearsay from friends/acquaintances but have not read the book so they only have part of the "picture". I have witnessed several times people succeeding maybe on their 3rd or 4th try, so obviously something was not quite right the previous times.

    However, those that have read the book and have tried their best but feel the whole routine is not for them don't need to feel bad about it. As many of us have said before, even if one continues to use shampoo, if one only learns to choose better ingredients and/or use shampoo less often, and if one benefits from the other advice for gentler handling of our curls it is much better than what most of us did before, that's really what matters after all.
    2A/3A, medium length, layered, colored dark/medium ash blonde - "CGer" since April '02.

    "Converting the 'curlskeptics' one curly head at a time..." HWHC ;-)

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